UK ideas on post-Brexit ties are "pure illusion", EU's Tusk says

[rooster59]

UK ideas on post-Brexit ties are "pure illusion", EU's Tusk says

By Gabriela Baczynska and Jan Strupczewski

 

European Council President Donald Tusk and European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker arrive to address a joint news conference during a European Union leaders informal summit in Brussels, Belgium, February 23, 2018. REUTERS/Francois Lenoir

 

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - European Council President Donald Tusk on Friday dismissed as "pure illusion" the ideas floated by Britain so far on what sort of relationship it wants with the European Union after it leaves the bloc.

 

Tusk said he hoped to get more clarity when he meets Theresa May next Thursday, a day before the British prime minister is due to deliver a speech to outline London's vision of its future ties with the EU.

 

"I am glad that the UK government seems to be moving towards a more detailed position," Tusk told journalists after 27 EU leaders - all apart from May - met in Brussels on Friday.

 

"However ... I am afraid that the UK position today is based on pure illusion. It seems like the 'cake' philosophy is still alive. From the very start it has been a key clear principle of the EU 27 that there can be no cherry-picking and no single market 'a la carte'."

 

British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson has famously said he wants Britain to get the best of both worlds - to "have its cake and eat it".

 

EU leaders have long been asking May for details of London's vision for future relations, but she has been hampered by divisions within her ruling Conservative Party, with some backing close trading ties and others seeking a "clean break".

 

THE CAKE PROBLEM

 

Tusk said the remaining 27 EU states would adopt their joint stance on that in March, whether London provided input or not. He said the bloc would be "extremely realistic in our assessment of possible new proposals".

 

Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte, who saw May this week, echoed those comments in talking to reporters separately after the Brussels meeting.

 

"I made it clear to Theresa May that I believe it is crucial for the UK to set out its position on the transition, on issues like the Irish border, and particularly on the future relationship," he said.

 

"We don't like cherry-picking, so it will be difficult to come to a bespoke deal along the lines that some in the UK are suggesting."

 

The EU has rejected British ideas for a three-pronged deal in which Britain would stick to the bloc's rules after Brexit in some areas, diverge moderately in others and go for distinctively different solutions for the rest.

 

The issue of avoiding erecting a border between EU member Ireland and the British province of Northern Ireland after Britain leaves has emerged as the most sensitive in the divorce negotiations, as both sides fear a return to the violence that beset the region for decades.

 

The EU expects Britain to come up with proposals on that, adding that London's desire to leave the bloc's single market and customs union means a border would be virtually unavoidable.

 

"I don't think the United Kingdom has yet squared the circle," Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar told journalists. "You're hearing this idea of three baskets. But that's not a significant step away from having your cake and eating it."

 

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-02-24

[Samui Bodoh]

1 hour ago, rooster59 said:

"However ... I am afraid that the UK position today is based on pure illusion. It seems like the 'cake' philosophy is still alive. From the very start it has been a key clear principle of the EU 27 that there can be no cherry-picking and no single market 'a la carte'."

I dislike this guy on sight, but he is correct.

 

As I said yesterday, it is time for the UK to stop this Brexit nonsense for a generation because there is no consensus in the UK. You may have voted to leave (what you DON'T WANT), but without a concurrent thought/plan on what you DO want, that vote is both meaningless and idiotic.

 

Swallow your pride, rejoin the EU, and if there is a desire have another referendum in twenty years with some kind of potential plan in place, then have it.

 

[anon537687643]

Meaningless and idiotic post! A failing and outdated EU is what UK is Leaving! The EU And Tusk Want UK money,simple to understand !


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[Jip99]

6 minutes ago, Samui Bodoh said:

I dislike this guy on sight, but he is correct.

 

As I said yesterday, it is time for the UK to stop this Brexit nonsense for a generation because there is no consensus in the UK. You may have voted to leave (what you DON'T WANT), but without a concurrent thought/plan on what you DO want, that vote is both meaningless and idiotic.

 

Swallow your pride, rejoin the EU, and if there is a desire have another referendum in twenty years with some kind of potential plan in place, then have it.

 

 

Correct diagnosis doctor, but wrong surgery.

 

Consensus is an inappropriate word - there was a majority vote to leave. But, as you correctly point out that was only part of the process - what we were leaving for was not identified. That was the fault of politicians then an since.

 

There is no pride to swallow, the electorate are not at fault for Cameron’s inability to have a clear vision in place for ‘leave’. Everything that I have seen of the EU since the vote reaffirmed my view that is not something I want to be part of.

 

Whilst May and her cohorts will dilute some people’s image of Brexit, I am content that ANY Brexit is better than none.

 

I am no great fan of May (although it was a hospital pass leading us out of the EU) but that lady is not for turning where Brexit is concerned - there is no going back, get used to that. 

[Get Real]

And, again it may not go as May want. As I said from start. The woman is living in a dream world.

[mfd101]

1 hour ago, Get Real said:

And, again it may not go as May want. As I said from start. The woman is living in a dream world.

A nightmare world, I think - one where everything that can go wrong is going wrong, because of the democratic vote of the British people.

 

Suck it up, Fellas. Adults accept the consequences of their own decisions ...

[Sir Dude]

What the EU expects the UK to accept are "pure illusions" too Tusky boy.

[chezy86]

So let me get this straight the Eu exports more into the U.K. than U.K. exports to the EU. I’m no Einstein but who’s going to be the biggest loser then?. Or will the giant car manufacturers of Germany open factories i the U.K. to get round the taxes as it is 10% of total sales in Europe? If so bring it on Mr Tusk.

We are seeing a shift everywhere in Europe towards nationalistic parties and away from mainstream so it’s only a matter of time before others follow in my opinion.So I say to Mr Tusk and his views “ SSSSH we don’t care”.

[smedly]

2 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

I dislike this guy on sight, but he is correct.

 

As I said yesterday, it is time for the UK to stop this Brexit nonsense for a generation because there is no consensus in the UK. You may have voted to leave (what you DON'T WANT), but without a concurrent thought/plan on what you DO want, that vote is both meaningless and idiotic.

 

Swallow your pride, rejoin the EU, and if there is a desire have another referendum in twenty years with some kind of potential plan in place, then have it.

 

what part of leave don't you get, seems very simple to me and it doesn't really matter what you think because the British people voted to leave, you think it is a bad idea well the majority of British people do not agree and as this nonsense continues more and more are wanting to leave

 

The UK is attempting to maintain a good relationship with the EU both in trade and other things but it is seriously wearing thin, personally I would have walked a long time ago, 

[smedly]

This sentence sums up exactly what the EU is

 

Technocratic thoughtlessness and geopolitical naivety of the bureaucratic power grab approach to politics, in its relentless expansion  the EU has brought strategic rivalry back to Europe which is only getting worse.

 

and more reality

 

No one who demands that Brexit should be reversed or sabotaged ever admits that the course they advocate is reckless.  The foundation of their position is that it is the safe option — a return to the status quo preceding the 2016 Referendum, or as close to it as possible.  Then, goes the story, our economy will be safe, our relationships with our EU neighbours secure, our standing in the world restored.  We return to a pre-Referendum Garden of Eden.

This is rarely argued explicitly, and never in detail, but it is inescapably there by implication.  Yet the idea that there is a normality to return to, a safe status quo, is a mirage.  The EU is in a state of chronic political, financial and social instability.  This is not Eurosceptic sour grapes: it is the view repeatedly and forcefully put by President Emmanuel Macron, who is widely regarded, not only by himself, as the man who can save the European project from collapse.  Both in his book Révolution (2016) and in his important speech at the Sorbonne on 26 Sept 2017, he has described the EU as suffering an existential crisis, unable to remedy its glaring policy failures and in danger of losing the support of its peoples. 

Edited February 24, 2018 by smedly

[gamini]

3 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

Correct diagnosis doctor, but wrong surgery.

 

Consensus is an inappropriate word - there was a majority vote to leave. But, as you correctly point out that was only part of the process - what we were leaving for was not identified. That was the fault of politicians then an since.

 

There is no pride to swallow, the electorate are not at fault for Cameron’s inability to have a clear vision in place for ‘leave’. Everything that I have seen of the EU since the vote reaffirmed my view that is not something I want to be part of.

 

Whilst May and her cohorts will dilute some people’s image of Brexit, I am content that ANY Brexit is better than none.

 

I am no great fan of May (although it was a hospital pass leading us out of the EU) but that lady is not for turning where Brexit is concerned - there is no going back, get used to that. 

You brexit people are always harping on about the majority supporting it. But you never seem to accept the fact that only 17 million people voted for Brexit it out of an electorate of 46 million. you also don't seem to accept the fact that those who didn't vote, having seen the mess that the UK is in now would probably have voted against it. It would appear to me that supporters of brexit are a very scared of another referendum which will probably be totally in favour of remaining.

[gamini]

25 minutes ago, smedly said:

This sentence sums up exactly what the EU is

 

Technocratic thoughtlessness and geopolitical naivety of the bureaucratic power grab approach to politics, in its relentless expansion  the EU has brought strategic rivalry back to Europe which is only getting worse.

 

and more reality

 

No one who demands that Brexit should be reversed or sabotaged ever admits that the course they advocate is reckless.  The foundation of their position is that it is the safe option — a return to the status quo preceding the 2016 Referendum, or as close to it as possible.  Then, goes the story, our economy will be safe, our relationships with our EU neighbours secure, our standing in the world restored.  We return to a pre-Referendum Garden of Eden.

This is rarely argued explicitly, and never in detail, but it is inescapably there by implication.  Yet the idea that there is a normality to return to, a safe status quo, is a mirage.  The EU is in a state of chronic political, financial and social instability.  This is not Eurosceptic sour grapes: it is the view repeatedly and forcefully put by President Emmanuel Macron, who is widely regarded, not only by himself, as the man who can save the European project from collapse.  Both in his book Révolution (2016) and in his important speech at the Sorbonne on 26 Sept 2017, he has described the EU as suffering an existential crisis, unable to remedy its glaring policy failures and in danger of losing the support of its peoples. 

But less of a mess than the UK

[Becker]

41 minutes ago, smedly said:

This sentence sums up exactly what the EU is

 

Technocratic thoughtlessness and geopolitical naivety of the bureaucratic power grab approach to politics, in its relentless expansion  the EU has brought strategic rivalry back to Europe which is only getting worse.

 

and more reality

 

No one who demands that Brexit should be reversed or sabotaged ever admits that the course they advocate is reckless.  The foundation of their position is that it is the safe option — a return to the status quo preceding the 2016 Referendum, or as close to it as possible.  Then, goes the story, our economy will be safe, our relationships with our EU neighbours secure, our standing in the world restored.  We return to a pre-Referendum Garden of Eden.

This is rarely argued explicitly, and never in detail, but it is inescapably there by implication.  Yet the idea that there is a normality to return to, a safe status quo, is a mirage.  The EU is in a state of chronic political, financial and social instability.  This is not Eurosceptic sour grapes: it is the view repeatedly and forcefully put by President Emmanuel Macron, who is widely regarded, not only by himself, as the man who can save the European project from collapse.  Both in his book Révolution (2016) and in his important speech at the Sorbonne on 26 Sept 2017, he has described the EU as suffering an existential crisis, unable to remedy its glaring policy failures and in danger of losing the support of its peoples. 

OK, so President Macron is going to arrange a referendum in France and campaign for "Frexit"? Or did you accidentally omit a gigantic "However......".

[mfd101]

17 minutes ago, gamini said:

You brexit people are always harping on about the majority supporting it. But you never seem to accept the fact that only 17 million people voted for Brexit it out of an electorate of 46 million. you also don't seem to accept the fact that those who didn't vote, having seen the mess that the UK is in now would probably have voted against it. It would appear to me that supporters of brexit are a very scared of another referendum which will probably be totally in favour of remaining.

That's the price of democracy: If you can't be bothered to vote then not only do you not count but you don't get counted!

[Becker]

54 minutes ago, smedly said:

what part of leave don't you get, seems very simple to me and it doesn't really matter what you think because the British people voted to leave, you think it is a bad idea well the majority of British people do not agree and as this nonsense continues more and more are wanting to leave

 

The UK is attempting to maintain a good relationship with the EU both in trade and other things but it is seriously wearing thin, personally I would have walked a long time ago, 

I'm sure the EU are quaking in their boots at the thought because we all know how much more the EU will be affected by that than the UK...

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, smedly said:

This sentence sums up exactly what the EU is

 

Technocratic thoughtlessness and geopolitical naivety of the bureaucratic power grab approach to politics, in its relentless expansion  the EU has brought strategic rivalry back to Europe which is only getting worse.

 

and more reality

 

No one who demands that Brexit should be reversed or sabotaged ever admits that the course they advocate is reckless.  The foundation of their position is that it is the safe option — a return to the status quo preceding the 2016 Referendum, or as close to it as possible.  Then, goes the story, our economy will be safe, our relationships with our EU neighbours secure, our standing in the world restored.  We return to a pre-Referendum Garden of Eden.

This is rarely argued explicitly, and never in detail, but it is inescapably there by implication.  Yet the idea that there is a normality to return to, a safe status quo, is a mirage.  The EU is in a state of chronic political, financial and social instability.  This is not Eurosceptic sour grapes: it is the view repeatedly and forcefully put by President Emmanuel Macron, who is widely regarded, not only by himself, as the man who can save the European project from collapse.  Both in his book Révolution (2016) and in his important speech at the Sorbonne on 26 Sept 2017, he has described the EU as suffering an existential crisis, unable to remedy its glaring policy failures and in danger of losing the support of its peoples. 

And your source for that is ?

[billd766]

1 hour ago, gamini said:

You brexit people are always harping on about the majority supporting it. But you never seem to accept the fact that only 17 million people voted for Brexit it out of an electorate of 46 million. you also don't seem to accept the fact that those who didn't vote, having seen the mess that the UK is in now would probably have voted against it. It would appear to me that supporters of brexit are a very scared of another referendum which will probably be totally in favour of remaining.

 

You Remainers are always harping on about only 17 million people voted for Brexit, conveniently ignoring the fact that only 15 odd million wanted to stay.

 

If the people who did not vote for any reason are complaining, why are both you and they complaining about the result?

 

They had the same opportunity as everybody else did, but did not take it. Tough, if they wanted to stay then they should have got off their collective asses and voted.

 

Maybe they would have won or perhaps the Brexit side would have won more votes. Nobody knows.

[petermik]

Just walk away Mrs May...............

[Gulfsailor]

The UK really needs a deal that includes free trade more than the EU does. Here some numbers in GBP;

 

UK 'export' to EU countries is circa 250B or 43% of total export. This equals to around 13% of its GDP. 

 

EU countries 'export' to UK is circa 320B or 8% of total export. This equals to around 3% of EU GDP (minus UK part of it). 

[Mosha]

Wait while the recipient states discover the donating states aren't prepared to divvy up more to cover the 10 Bn Euro that the UK provided, at least 10% if the EU budget.

Sent from my iris 505 using Tapatalk

[smedly]

2 hours ago, gamini said:

You brexit people are always harping on about the majority supporting it. But you never seem to accept the fact that only 17 million people voted for Brexit it out of an electorate of 46 million

and you don't seem to understand that in terms of election turnout - that is massive

 

The result was what it was - the majority voted to leave the EU debacle and according to recent polls - that majority has now increased 

[Mosha]

and you don't seem to understand that in terms of election turnout - that is massive
 
The result was what it was - the majority voted to leave the EU debacle and according to recent polls - that majority has now increased 

The abstainers obviously didn't care one way or the other.

Sent from my iris 505 using Tapatalk

[smedly]

43 minutes ago, Gulfsailor said:

The UK really needs a deal that includes free trade more than the EU does. Here some numbers in GBP;

 

UK 'export' to EU countries is circa 250B or 43% of total export. This equals to around 13% of its GDP. 

 

EU countries 'export' to UK is circa 320B or 8% of total export. This equals to around 3% of EU GDP (minus UK part of it). 

The bottom line is - it is in everyones interest to have a good trading deal between the UK and EU

 

this is not about who will loose the most - the UK leaving the EU without a trade agreement will hurt all concerned but the UK will be free to strike up trade deals around the world, so in actual fact "long term" the EU looses big time and lets not forget that it is in big trouble as it is.

 

There is only one objective in Brussels - stopping the UK leaving 

[Andycoops]

Tusk can illude all he likes. 

If we refuse to pay any money his gravy train will be minus a huge amount.  

[dick dasterdly]

4 minutes ago, Mosha said:

The abstainers obviously didn't care one way or the other.

Sent from my iris 505 using Tapatalk
 

Not entirely true as I abstained from voting as I wasn't sure which was the worst option - the UK govt. or the EU..... 

[chezy86]

You brexit people are always harping on about the majority supporting it. But you never seem to accept the fact that only 17 million people voted for Brexit it out of an electorate of 46 million. you also don't seem to accept the fact that those who didn't vote, having seen the mess that the UK is in now would probably have voted against it. It would appear to me that supporters of brexit are a very scared of another referendum which will probably be totally in favour of remaining.

Not so I voted to remain but now I have seen the attitude of the European Parliament towards the U.K. in a second referendum I would vote leave. Like spoiled little school kids who didn’t get their own way using bully boy tactics to try and frighten the British into changing their minds. Thinking about it if the EU had of offered Cameron a better deal maybe this wouldn’t be happening but that’s history and I don’t think anyone including Junker and his cronies thought for one minute the vote would go the way it did.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[dick dasterdly]

6 minutes ago, smedly said:

The bottom line is - it is in everyones interest to have a good trading deal between the UK and EU

 

this is not about who will loose the most - the UK leaving the EU without a trade agreement will hurt all concerned but the UK will be free to strike up trade deals around the world, so in actual fact "long term" the EU looses big time and lets not forget that it is in big trouble as it is.

 

There is only one objective in Brussels - stopping the UK leaving 

"The bottom line is - it is in everyones interest to have a good trading deal between the UK and EU"

I agree - but the EU politicians don't....

[robertson468]

2 hours ago, gamini said:

You brexit people are always harping on about the majority supporting it. But you never seem to accept the fact that only 17 million people voted for Brexit it out of an electorate of 46 million. you also don't seem to accept the fact that those who didn't vote, having seen the mess that the UK is in now would probably have voted against it. It would appear to me that supporters of brexit are a very scared of another referendum which will probably be totally in favour of remaining.

Didn't realise that you ha carried out a poll of the UK Electorate?       Well done, can you publish the full results please...........or are you just guessing and talking nonesense?

[the guest]

It's quite clear the UK couldn't negotiate itself out of a paper bag!

[The manic]

3 hours ago, smedly said:

This sentence sums up exactly what the EU is

 

Technocratic thoughtlessness and geopolitical naivety of the bureaucratic power grab approach to politics, in its relentless expansion  the EU has brought strategic rivalry back to Europe which is only getting worse.

 

and more reality

 

No one who demands that Brexit should be reversed or sabotaged ever admits that the course they advocate is reckless.  The foundation of their position is that it is the safe option — a return to the status quo preceding the 2016 Referendum, or as close to it as possible.  Then, goes the story, our economy will be safe, our relationships with our EU neighbours secure, our standing in the world restored.  We return to a pre-Referendum Garden of Eden.

This is rarely argued explicitly, and never in detail, but it is inescapably there by implication.  Yet the idea that there is a normality to return to, a safe status quo, is a mirage.  The EU is in a state of chronic political, financial and social instability.  This is not Eurosceptic sour grapes: it is the view repeatedly and forcefully put by President Emmanuel Macron, who is widely regarded, not only by himself, as the man who can save the European project from collapse.  Both in his book Révolution (2016) and in his important speech at the Sorbonne on 26 Sept 2017, he has described the EU as suffering an existential crisis, unable to remedy its glaring policy failures and in danger of losing the support of its peoples. 

The EU was and is a large single market – but it is a protectionist one. Thus, like all such insular blocs, it is not sustainable in a dynamic world economy. It protects bureaucrats and the middle classes and big companies and small farms – but not Europeans as a whole as consumers. EU consumers should have the opportunity to buy on world markets at the most competitive rates for price and quality. If the EU just wants to keep the Chinese, Indians and the rest out of the single market then it is simply making its own citizens poorer.

There are other reasons to believe that the EU project isn’t worth persevering with. There is the inherent destructive effect of a single currency, the euro, on such a large part of our economic future. The euro, as Joseph Stiglitz forensically analyses it in his recent book, is permanently prone to crises because it isn’t backed by “a fiscal union”, which is to say the richer countries in the North won’t subsidise the poorer ones in the South. The constant push for political integration, partly under some pressure from president Macron to “fix” the euro’s fundamental flaw will also continue to alienate Europe’s people from the ideals of the EU. So will the ceaseless desire to close down opt-outs and national vetoes and, simultaneously, to expand the EU’s frontiers eastwards towards poorer states and a substantial land frontier with Russia. All these trends will continue to strain the EU in 2018 and beyond.

Who could be entirely confident that the EU would still be around in its current form in a decade or so? It will still be growing uncompetitive in world markets, prone to banking crises and social unrest as the euro inflicts austerity on the least well-off in the weakest countries. Now may be the moment to find the exit.