Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[Airbagwill]

2 hours ago, Chelseafan said:

Absolutely. The whole point of the EEC in its basic form was to enable free trade among sovereign states. This is what we were sold. I doubt very much that the vote would of gone the way it did had people known what they were voting for 30 years down the road. JMHO

 

 

You weren't listening.

[Airbagwill]

58 minutes ago, tebee said:

The problem is for things to remain as they are we need to remain in the single market and customs union. This is the so called Brexit in name only, which is probably the most likely outcome at the moment. 

 

Problem is it's fairly pointless as it means retaining ECJ oversight and freedom of movement which  most Brexiters hate. 

Apparently now they are passed because the EU will charge them 6 quid for a visa....are they trying to have their cake and eat it?

[nanglong218]

26 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

You weren't listening.

Were you there in '75?

[tebee]

And now it would appear the government has surrendered on free movement anyway.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-talks-latest-eu-immigration-free-movement-offer-a8326101.html

 

So remind me again, why are we going through all this ?

[boomerangutang]

I don't know if this has been mentioned in the 5,000+ posts in this topic, but....

 

Steve Bannon (Trump's bosom buddy) has been touring Europe, talking to groups of white-supremacists and hard-rightists there.  He openly admits that: during the Brexit campaign, he tangibly aided the Brexit movement.  If Bannon did that, then surely other US right-wing millionaires (including Trump) were involved.  

 

How does it feel, Brits, to know that US right-wingers were actively involved with affecting the vote for Brexit, .....which, btw, is music to Putin's ears.  Putin also liked the idea of Brexit, because it weakens EU and makes it easier for Russia to spread its territory toward former USSR regions. 

Putin is happy, Trumpists and other American right-wingers are happy, Brexiters are happy.  What's not to like? 

[billd766]

3 hours ago, nanglong218 said:

Were you there in '75?

 

I was and I voted to join the EEC and NOT the EU.

 

At this referendum I voted to Leave.

[Kieran00001]

5 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

I was and I voted to join the EEC and NOT the EU.

 

At this referendum I voted to Leave.

 

No, you voted to remain in the EEC, we had joined it long before then.  And you should have paid attention, don't try to pretend that it was sprung on us, it was the intention to make the EU before the 1975 referendum, there were three leaflets sent to every household, the leave campaign leaflets main point being the intention of the EEC to form a parliament and it was in the very first paragraph of the leaflet, it was discussed on the BBC, it was discussed in parliament, it was one of the main talking points, everyone knew, how did you miss it, or did you not really?

[billd766]

2 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

No, you voted to remain in the EEC, we had joined it long before then.  And you should have paid attention, don't try to pretend that it was sprung on us, it was the intention to make the EU before the 1975 referendum, there were three leaflets sent to every household, the leave campaign leaflets main point being the intention of the EEC to form a parliament and it was in the very first paragraph of the leaflet, it was discussed on the BBC, it was discussed in parliament, it was one of the main talking points, everyone knew, how did you miss it, or did you not really?

 

I was in therRAF in Germany at the time and NO leaflets were given out then. The only news was either the BBC or BFBS. There was no television coverage out there.

 

Satisfied now.

[Kieran00001]

4 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

I was in therRAF in Germany at the time and NO leaflets were given out then. The only news was either the BBC or BFBS. There was no television coverage out there.

 

Satisfied now.

 

Not really, when you say, "I voted to join [sic] the EEC and NOT the EU.", you are only demonstrating that you personally did not know what you are voting for, the nation was informed, and it voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EEC knowing of its intention to grow into the EU.

[nauseus]

18 hours ago, tebee said:

Brexit will either fail or cause untold damage to the country.

 

Why?

 

Brexit was a simple, but wrong answer, to UK's complex problems. Ergo people that support it have poor logical analysis skills. We have put these people in charge of our govt. What do you expect to happen?

 

https://vip.politicsmeanspolitics.com/2018/04/26/the-tragedy-of-brexit-when-simple-ideas-meet-complex-realities/

 

Domestic problems are domestic problems, some caused by EU membership but mostly separate from the decision to Brexit, which is the UK's verdict on the EU and the problem that it has become. The level of complexity in negotiating the exit shows just how far the EU has mutated from the concept of a "common market" trading bloc, politically.  

[nauseus]

14 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Not really, when you say, "I voted to join [sic] the EEC and NOT the EU.", you are only demonstrating that you personally did not know what you are voting for, the nation was informed, and it voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EEC knowing of its intention to grow into the EU.

Rubbish as ever.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Not really, when you say, "I voted to join [sic] the EEC and NOT the EU.", you are only demonstrating that you personally did not know what you are voting for, the nation was informed, and it voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EEC knowing of its intention to grow into the EU.

And when Britain realised what a shambles the EU had become a letter was posted through every door in the land asking 'would you like to remain within the EU or leave, nothing more nothing less. The British people voted to leave, I am truly sorry you don't like it, but that is the way it is. You can argue from now untill doomsday and I'm sure you will but we voted to leave.

[Kieran00001]

9 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Rubbish as ever.

 

Its not, read the pamphlets, see if you can make it all the way to the second sentence of the first paragraph in the leave campaigns pamphlet where they inform the public of the intention of the EEC to merge into one country.

 

 

Or just take a look at the back, and see if you can read this sentence that clearly says that the intention was to make a European parliament.

 

Edited April 29, 2018 by Kieran00001

[Kieran00001]

12 minutes ago, vogie said:

And when Britain realised what a shambles the EU had become a letter was posted through every door in the land asking 'would you like to remain within the EU or leave, nothing more nothing less. The British people voted to leave, I am truly sorry you don't like it, but that is the way it is. You can argue from now untill doomsday and I'm sure you will but we voted to leave.

 

I was arguing specifically the claim that the 1975 vote was for the EEC not the coming EU, the reason for giving the referendum in 1975 was because of the evolution of the EEC into a parliament, to claim otherwise is just false.

[nauseus]

28 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Its not, read the pamphlets, see if you can make it all the way to the second sentence of the first paragraph in the leave campaigns pamphlet where they inform the public of the intention of the EEC to merge into one country.

 

 

Or just take a look at the back, and see if you can read this sentence that clearly says that the intention was to make a European parliament.

 

This out leaflet was not received by all households and voters. Wonder why that was? The main anti EEC proponents at the time were not popular and therefore were not widely credited. We've been through all this before.

 

Getting this information is easier now that it was then. Few people in the UK were aware of anything more than a common market! The word union was not broadly mentioned at all. I know. I was there. But I don't think you were. 

 

[mommysboy]

It was a bad result, a poor mandate, a divisive result, a costly result, but it is binding and it needs to be acted upon.  Moreover, there isn't any real option: the sole option that delivers is what is commonly called hard Brexit, otherwise there is no point in leaving.  The Government has made a terrible job of it so far; the only consolation is that they probably won't see office again for a generation. The poor are already paying for the gross error of judgement.  Our old people also have a lot to answer for

[vogie]

1 hour ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

No, you voted to remain in the EEC, we had joined it long before then.  And you should have paid attention, don't try to pretend that it was sprung on us, it was the intention to make the EU before the 1975 referendum, there were three leaflets sent to every household, the leave campaign leaflets main point being the intention of the EEC to form a parliament and it was in the very first paragraph of the leaflet, it was discussed on the BBC, it was discussed in parliament, it was one of the main talking points, everyone knew, how did you miss it, or did you not really?

Then why does the 1975 pamphlet state 'common market'

 

"Polling will be in the normal way, at your local polling station, from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. (Your poll card will remind you of the date and give other details.) You will get a ballot paper, and be asked to mark the ballot paper in one of two clearly marked places, in order to record a Yes or No vote about Britain's continued membership of the European Community (Common Market).

The Government have recommended that Britain should stay in on the new terms which have been agreed with the other members of the Common Market."

Edited April 29, 2018 by vogie

[nauseus]

5 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

It was a bad result, a poor mandate, a divisive result, a costly result, but it is binding and it needs to be acted upon.  Moreover, there isn't any real option: the sole option that delivers is what is commonly called hard Brexit, otherwise there is no point in leaving.  The Government has made a terrible job of it so far; the only consolation is that they probably won't see office again for a generation. The poor are already paying for the gross error of judgement.  Our old people also have a lot to answer for

Gross error of judgement in your opinion. The old people have their own opinion; they are are entitled to their vote and do not have to answer to anyone, for anything. 

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Gross error of judgement in your opinion. The old people have their own opinion; they are are entitled to their vote and do not have to answer to anyone, for anything. 

Well they will all be gone soon enough and brexit can be reversed if it ever happens which I doubt. The immigration solution under discussion isn't much different (if at all apart from cosmetics) from what we have now and it certainly looks like we stay in the customs union, even the thickest leaver must ask themselves, why leave at all then.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Not really, when you say, "I voted to join [sic] the EEC and NOT the EU.", you are only demonstrating that you personally did not know what you are voting for, the nation was informed, and it voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EEC knowing of its intention to grow into the EU.

 

TBH I really don't care what you think or say. (That is the polite version)

[tebee]

21 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

It was a bad result, a poor mandate, a divisive result, a costly result, but it is binding and it needs to be acted upon.  Moreover, there isn't any real option: the sole option that delivers is what is commonly called hard Brexit, otherwise there is no point in leaving.  The Government has made a terrible job of it so far; the only consolation is that they probably won't see office again for a generation. The poor are already paying for the gross error of judgement.  Our old people also have a lot to answer for

No it is not binding - it was an advisory referendum.  if it was going to be a binding one it should have had safeguards like a super-majority. Trying to change it to one after just does not work. It is not even legal to have a binding referendum under the UK's constitution.

[Kieran00001]

13 minutes ago, vogie said:

Then why does the 1975 pamphlet state 'common market'

 

"Polling will be in the normal way, at your local polling station, from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. (Your poll card will remind you of the date and give other details.) You will get a ballot paper, and be asked to mark the ballot paper in one of two clearly marked places, in order to record a Yes or No vote about Britain's continued membership of the European Community (Common Market).

The Government have recommended that Britain should stay in on the new terms which have been agreed with the other members of the Common Market."

 

It says both, it says European Community and it says Common Market.  There were three European Communities at the time that together made the EC but everyone called it the EEC as that was the one changing things, but there was also the European Coal and Steel Community and the European Atomic Energy Community as well as the European Economic Community.  The EEC had a sole objective, the Common Market.  The 1975 referendum was proposing leaving all of them, the whole of the EC and the Common Market.

[soalbundy]

Just now, billd766 said:

 

TBH I really don't care what you think or say. (That is the polite version)

It's just the disappointment phase you are preparing yourself for, brexit isn't going to happen, if, then in name only and we lose all rights in the decision making, that feeling is now predominant and you know it.

[Kieran00001]

3 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

TBH I really don't care what you think or say. (That is the polite version)

 

Its not for you, its for other readers who could be mislead by a post like yours into thinking that the public were kept in the dark about the coming EU parliament in the 1975 referendum, when really its just that some didn't bother to inform themselves at the time and voted for something they knew little about.  Those people, by pretending that they were cheated,give a completely false impression and people deserve the truth.

[Orac]

No it is not binding - it was an advisory referendum.  if it was going to be a binding one it should have had safeguards like a super-majority. Trying to change it to one after just does not work. It is not even legal to have a binding referendum under the UK's constitution.

The government used the fact that it was non-binding to reject the amendments tabled that would have required super-majorities and regional majorities. This was state by David Lidington, Minister for a Europe, in HoC 16th June 2015:

“Amendment 16 does not make sense in the context of the Bill. The legislation is about holding a vote; it makes no provision for what follows. The referendum is advisory, as was the case for both the 1975 referendum on Europe and the Scottish independence vote last year. In neither of those cases was there a threshold for the interpretation of the result.”

See Column 231 of the following:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmhansrd/cm150616/debtext/150616-0002.htm




Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Kieran00001]

8 minutes ago, tebee said:

No it is not binding - it was an advisory referendum.  if it was going to be a binding one it should have had safeguards like a super-majority. Trying to change it to one after just does not work. It is not even legal to have a binding referendum under the UK's constitution.

 

God knows why the people are expecting the Tories to break an age old tradition and honour one of their pledges.

[vogie]

9 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Its not for you, its for other readers who could be mislead by a post like yours into thinking that the public were kept in the dark about the coming EU parliament in the 1975 referendum, when really its just that some didn't bother to inform themselves at the time and voted for something they knew little about.  Those people, by pretending that they were cheated,give a completely false impression and people deserve the truth.

I think it's fair to say that if it mentions 'the common market' on the said pamphlet, that is what you would be voting for, or not. Look forward to your usual spin. ?

[nauseus]

22 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Well they will all be gone soon enough and brexit can be reversed if it ever happens which I doubt. The immigration solution under discussion isn't much different (if at all apart from cosmetics) from what we have now and it certainly looks like we stay in the customs union, even the thickest leaver must ask themselves, why leave at all then.

A miserable take, you assume too much. 

[billd766]

Do you know, I find it odd that so many remainers seem to know more about me than I do.

 

How stupid I am, 3 or 4 remind me at every opportunity,

how the UK will not really leave the EU (how do they know that as discussions are not completed yet),

how I voted correctly in 1975 and wrongly in 2016,

how the sky will fall in if we leave,

how much it will cost the country in jobs,

how the finacial centre will move from London elsewhere,

how the national health will collapse,

how people from the EU will not be allowed to stay

 

Yet it seems to me that all the Remainers (who actually lost the referendum) seem to truly believe that they are right and everybody else is wrong and stupid, uneducated thickos who shouldn't have been allowed to vote. 

 

 

Especially me as I am old and they gleefully waiting for older people to die off so that the younger people, you know, the ones with little or no experiance of real life can change it all back to their "comfortable" feelings once again.

 

To those people can I say that I really don't give a rats arzzze about your opinion.

 

Many of you didn't vote or are not involved in Brexit and it won't affect a lot of you anyway.

Edited April 29, 2018 by billd766

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

I think it's fair to say that if it mentions 'the common market' on the said pamphlet, that is what you would be voting for, or not. Look forward to your usual spin. ?

What is the point in arguing, brexit is gone, a brief sound of stamping in fury and then it will be time to muffle 'traitors' behind wet handkerchiefs.