Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[RuamRudy]

Just now, transam said:

I think you are lost in space...You have no answers.....

I am lost? We had an empire that spanned the globe at the start of the war and you refer to us as being one of the smallest countries? I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are cherry picking.

[transam]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

You are mixing up two threads now... but are you forgetting about the empire and backs of the colonies that we stood upon for so long? WWII was no David and Goliath contest.

Think you have lost the plot chummy.....

•  

[The Renegade]

Quote

Britain should continue paying into EU development aid projects after Brexit, Michel Barnier has said, after repeating that British companies will not be able to participate in the Galileo space programme after it leaves the bloc.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/05/14/britain-should-pay-eu-foreign-aid-programmes-brexit-says-michel/

 

If there is any mileage in this article then Barnier is becoming Barmier by the day.

 

Frans Timmerman, VP of the European Commission

 

Quote

But dialogue is not a goal in itself. Dialogue needs to lead to tangible and robust results. I have also informed the council that this dialogue cannot continue indefinitely, we have to come to some solution at some point.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/14/eu-demands-action-by-poland-government-to-protect-rule-of-law

 

A statement that the EU would do well to heed in Brexit negotiations.

 

The EU Commission needs to ask itself one question.

 

Is the EU Commission there to support EU member States or are EU member States there to support the EU Commission ?

 

The answer to that will go some in explaining Brexit and the rise of Populism throughout the EU.

[Kieran00001]

14 minutes ago, transam said:

Did the UK pay the loans back and still became a world financial power...YES or NO....?

 

 

 

It took until 2006 to repay our loan, and we did not "become a world financial power", we were already a world financial power and through WW2 we lost our place as world leader, while we had represented 9.2% of the worlds economy, in the height of the Golden Age we only managed to get back to 6.42%, and now we represent just 3.42%.  There was no great rise to power after WW2, there was but a slow in the overall and ongoing decline of our economy.  And what do you see in this that is helpful to the Brexit debate?  That we could save some of our economic loss by nationalizing and by bringing the people further austerity?

[RuamRudy]

8 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

I thought my comment was straight forward and very self explanatory.

 

How you interpret that comment is entirely down to you.

 

If you have a specific question regarding my comment, pose that question and I will answer it.

I thought my question was clear, but I will try to break it down further:

 

Do you accept the government's own analysis which says that the there will be a 7.7% reduction in GDP and unemployment of 2 million as a result of a hard Brexit?

If yes, do you believe that is a price worth paying for Brexit?

 

[Kieran00001]

6 minutes ago, transam said:

Hitler bombing the UK was fact, the UK was out gunned, but the UK prevailed against all the odds and came back to be one of the best financial countries in the world even being one of the smallest..........You have no answers to that....

 

Britain was not one of the smallest, it was the biggest in the world, what on earth are you on about this time? 

[transam]

4 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Britain was not one of the smallest, it was the biggest in the world, what on earth are you on about this time? 

Do you want a map....?

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

But this does not apply to EU citizen as they all have a right to work in the UK, it's only relevant to non-EU migrants.

Exactly.  It's ridiculous and very wrong that eu citizens are automatically allowed to move to the UK -  even if they will be homeless.

[tebee]

29 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Analysis is not fact. 

 

A 7.7% reduction in GDP is not a collapse of the UK economy.

 

.

 

Now we in Monty Python black knight territory here  - 'Tis just a flesh  wound.

 

The Banking crisis of 2008 caused a 2.5% reduction in GDP - this would be 3 times as bad

 

If I offer you and analysis of your new pension deal as giving you a 7.7% reduction in payouts would you still go for it because it was just an analysis? 

 

29 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

 

 

A large number of those ( according to remainers ) will be EU Citizens returning home, so it will not be 2 million more unemployed.

 

 

Firstly if they leave there will be a further reduction in GDP as the are mostly young and in employment, we will also lose all the businesses that served them'

 

Secondly we might get 1.5 million UK citizens returning from Europe, 1 million of which will be OAPs  

29 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

 

It would be prudent to await the outcome of any negotiations before making bold predictions.

 

Facts emerge after an event. Hyperbole emerges before an event happens.

I'm talking about if we have a hard Brexit - JIT manufacturing can not survive if there are customs checks and services won't be allowed to sell to the EU.

 

So you are going to jump off a cliff and wait until arrive at the  the certan fact of you meeting the ground at the bottom before deciding if it was a good idea or not ?

[Kieran00001]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

Do you want a map....?

 

" best financial countries in the world even being one of the smallest. "

 

If you wanted to say that it was a small country not a small financial country then your grammar was terrible, don't blame me. 

[The Renegade]

12 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I thought my question was clear, but I will try to break it down further:

 

Do you accept the government's own analysis which says that the there will be a 7.7% reduction in GDP and unemployment of 2 million as a result of a hard Brexit?

If yes, do you believe that is a price worth paying for Brexit?

 

Did you have trouble understanding this ?

 

Quote

Analysis is not fact. 

 

A 7.7% reduction in GDP is not a collapse of the UK economy.

 

A large number of those ( according to remainers ) will be EU Citizens returning home, so it will not be 2 million more unemployed.

 

It would be prudent to await the outcome of any negotiations before making bold predictions.

 

Facts emerge after an event. Hyperbole emerges before an event happens.

If you had trouble understanding that, it might be time to employ a secretary.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

" best financial countries in the world even being one of the smallest. "

 

If you wanted to say that it was a small country not a small financial country then your grammar was terrible, don't blame me. 

Grammar police know they have failed in their argument...But hey...I ain't one...Keep going....

[Kieran00001]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

Grammar police know they have failed in their argument...But hey...I ain't one...Keep going....

 

I am not policing you though, am I?  I am just telling you not to reply with the stroppy, "got a map" nonsense when your post did not read about the area of the country but the size of the economy.  Anyway, what on earth did you think the area had to do with anything?  I also note that you have failed to respond to the other comments I have made that rubbished your little idea that the UK will bounce back regardless of what is thrown at it.  Nor have you answered my question, so before accusing people of having failed in their argument at least address the argument they have put forth, or can't you?

 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Kieran00001

[The Renegade]

5 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

Now we in Monty Python black knight territory here  - 'Tis just a flesh  wound.

 

The Banking crisis of 2008 caused a 2.5% reduction in GDP - this would be 3 times as bad

 

If I offer you and analysis of your new pension deal as giving you a 7.7% reduction in payouts would you still go for it because it was just an analysis? 

 

Firstly if they leave there will be a further reduction in GDP as the are mostly young and in employment, we will also lose all the businesses that served them'

 

Secondly we might get 1.5 million UK citizens returning from Europe, 1 million of which will be OAPs  

I'm talking about if we have a hard Brexit - JIT manufacturing can not survive if there are customs checks and services won't be allowed to sell to the EU.

 

So you are going to jump off a cliff and wait until arrive at the  the certan fact of you meeting the ground at the bottom before deciding if it was a good idea or not ?

To reiterate,, as you seem to be having some difficulty.

 

Quote

Facts emerge after an event. Hyperbole emerges before an event happens.

I do not live my life by might, would, could or hyperbole.

 

Please accept and understand that, you live your frightened life whatever way you like.

 

As a great Poet once said.

 

Poor wee timorous, remainer beasties.

Oh what a panic is in your scared breasties.

 

200 years ahead of his time

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Did you have trouble understanding this ?

 

If you had trouble understanding that, it might be time to employ a secretary.

Not - just wanted to make sure that I wasn't putting words in your mouth, that's all.

But seems that we all agree with the analysis that tebee is referring to - just that some of us are more concerned about it than others.

[beautifulthailand99]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

Let's clear up a few issues.

 

Migrants from Africa and ME tend to be either asylum seekers or economic migrants 

 

Asylum seekers become refugees once their application is approved. Genuine refugees deserve our help

 

Economic migrants are also welcome if they bring skills that are required by the economy

 

Problems occur when there are insufficient resources to check everybody in real time. 

 

The border force series recommended by Transam is an excellent source 

 

Of course economic migration is a much smaller problem for the U.K. Being an island

 

EU migration to the U.K. is now reversing direction and government has additional levers that can be pulled to reduce the number of migrants.

I hit and run this thread from time to time so as not to waste too much time on the internet but if I could have one wish it would be that Grouse was in charge and his word was law and all the problems vigorously debated here at length would all vanish in a puff of smoke.  Can we have a referendum on that thought and so bring to an end the bickering  ? 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, transam said:

But it is reckoned there are 1,000,000 naughty folk earning dosh in the UK..Low-life from the EU are now in the UK doing their low-life stuff...More strain on the country dealing with them..Police, court and prison costs...

Yes, we need more resources. This I've lost my passport scam must be closed off. No job after  3 months, out!

[transam]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Yes, we need more resources. This I've lost my passport scam must be closed off. No job after  3 months, out!

The disposing of ones PP is a biggy, folk are told to tear them up because they cannot be deported. The UK gives them money for food until the UK gets info from their country to deport them back...They are let out on the street and many disappear to be taken care of by their own...A big circle that the UK pays for...Continuously doing this stuff because there is nowhere to detain thousands...

[oldhippy]

36 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Hundreds of thousands of fit, healthy looking young men arriving in Europe in their designer jeans, clutching their iPhone’s and iPad’s, didn't much look like they were running away from hunger and disease.

 

I have always believed in the obligation of the UK and the EU to assist and offer refuge to genuine refugees. I have also always believed in rejecting economic migrants masquerading as refugees; whereas you seem either unaware or just plain obdurate to the existence of this massive migrant group, which are a much bigger problem to Europe than the genuine refugees.

QUOTE: Hundreds of thousands of fit, healthy looking young men arriving in Europe in their designer jeans, clutching their iPhone’s and iPad’s, didn't much look like they were running away from hunger and disease.

Yeah, really? In their rubber boats? Disgracefull to say such a thing!

 

But to come back to the topic:

Was the EU unprepared for the arrival of so many migrants? Of course they were, and they let us down big time.

Would the individual countries have been better prepared? Of course not.

As a matter of fact, the problems with individual countries would have been much bigger, each country trying to let the burdon go to other countries, even more than today.

Criticising the EU for their handling of the migrant problem is not a valid pro Brexit argument, and yet, it is the main reason for the Brexiteers.

 

Nobody can say they were not warned.

The soixante-huitards have been saying for 50 years that such extreme poverty only a short distance away from our "paradise" would not remain accepted.

TV and social media accellerated this.

And we also suggested the solution: investment in those poor countries, and no wars for oil and minerals.

The problem could have been solved through gradual economic progress.

 

 

 

[Grouse]

49 minutes ago, transam said:

Do you want a map....?

So Luxembourg and Singapore are minnows?

[transam]

2 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

QUOTE: Hundreds of thousands of fit, healthy looking young men arriving in Europe in their designer jeans, clutching their iPhone’s and iPad’s, didn't much look like they were running away from hunger and disease.

Yeah, really? In their rubber boats? Disgracefull to say such a thing!

 

But to come back to the topic:

Was the EU unprepared for the arrival of so many migrants? Of course they were, and they let us down big time.

Would the individual countries have been better prepared? Of course not.

As a matter of fact, the problems with individual countries would have been much bigger, each country trying to let the burdon go to other countries, even more than today.

Criticising the EU for their handling of the migrant problem is not a valid pro Brexit argument, and yet, it is the main reason for the Brexiteers.

 

Nobody can say they were not warned.

The soixante-huitards have been saying for 50 years that such extreme poverty only a short distance away from our "paradise" would not remain accepted.

TV and social media accellerated this.

And we also suggested the solution: investment in those poor countries, and no wars for oil and minerals.

The problem could have been solved through gradual economic progress.

 

 

 

Are you saying the UK should hand out more cash and at the same time strangle UK folk..Pensioners

 

Why not just tell folk to stay in their own country to make it better, the same as the UK worker strived for...?

[Grouse]

48 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Exactly.  It's ridiculous and very wrong that eu citizens are automatically allowed to move to the UK -  even if they will be homeless.

The Lithuanian guy quoted had been in work for 9 years. He got kicked out of his rented property (cost?), and was sleeping rough while working. It would be interesting to compare his rent with his wages. 

[oldhippy]

1 minute ago, transam said:

Are you saying the UK should hand out more cash and at the same time strangle UK folk..Pensioners

 

Why not just tell folk to stay in their own country to make it better, the same as the UK worker strived for...?

QUOTE: Why not just tell folk to stay in their own country to make it better, the same as the UK worker strived for...?

 

You mean like the British, the Irish, the Scandinavians, the Italians, and the rest of Europe that stayed in their poverty stricken countries and did not emigrate to the US?

[Grouse]

17 minutes ago, transam said:

The disposing of ones PP is a biggy, folk are told to tear them up because they cannot be deported. The UK gives them money for food until the UK gets info from their country to deport them back...They are let out on the street and many disappear to be taken care of by their own...A big circle that the UK pays for...Continuously doing this stuff because there is nowhere to detain thousands...

The Falklands will do nicely!

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_transportation

 

Hey, the first Aussies did OK!

Edited May 15, 2018 by Grouse

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

QUOTE: Why not just tell folk to stay in their own country to make it better, the same as the UK worker strived for...?

 

You mean like the British, the Irish, the Scandinavians, the Italians, and the rest of Europe that stayed in their poverty stricken countries and did not emigrate to the US?

There is also the not insignificant fact that the UK became wealthy through the exploitation and appropriation of the wealth and resources of many of these countries that are now in turmoil.

[transam]

3 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

QUOTE: Why not just tell folk to stay in their own country to make it better, the same as the UK worker strived for...?

 

You mean like the British, the Irish, the Scandinavians, the Italians, and the rest of Europe that stayed in their poverty stricken countries and did not emigrate to the US?

If the UK did not have the handout infrastructure there would be no influx...Folk PAY dodgy blokes to get there, yellow brick road...

But, the USA is built on others land...Another topic....

[transam]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

There is also the not insignificant fact that the UK became wealthy through the exploitation and appropriation of the wealth and resources of many of these countries that are now in turmoil.

Yes, the UK should have remained in control of India...

[dick dasterdly]

8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The Lithuanian guy quoted had been in work for 9 years. He got kicked out of his rented property (cost?), and was sleeping rough while working. It would be interesting to compare his rent with his wages. 

If he/she had work that paid well, they would not be homeless after being kicked out of their rented accommodation (for non-payment of rent?)

 

Presumably the person was employed in a very low paying job.  Great for the employer who is able to take advantage of the abundance of cheap, foreign labour - not so great for the brits. at the bottom of the pyramid.

Edited May 15, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[tebee]

20 minutes ago, transam said:

The disposing of ones PP is a biggy, folk are told to tear them up because they cannot be deported. The UK gives them money for food until the UK gets info from their country to deport them back...They are let out on the street and many disappear to be taken care of by their own...A big circle that the UK pays for...Continuously doing this stuff because there is nowhere to detain thousands...

But all this is of no relevance to the EU.

You are doing what so many Leavers do, conflating EU immigration with asylum seekers and illegal migrants. There will be just as many of the latte two  whether we are in the EU or out of it.

[transam]

8 minutes ago, tebee said:

But all this is of no relevance to the EU.

You are doing what so many Leavers do, conflating EU immigration with asylum seekers and illegal migrants. There will be just as many of the latte two  whether we are in the EU or out of it.

If they can stop the EU low-life moving into the UK it will be a step in the right direction. If any EU bloke gets nicked for naughty stuff then black stamp them and wave goodbye, but they ain't....