Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[beautifulthailand99]

5 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

The only example I have of that is a Thai / Polish couple I know in Bethnal Green. He's hard working, i.e. does a lot of very wonky DIY jobs around the house, but pays for nothing. He's younger and good looking - which enables him to f* around a lot with Brazilians and other nationalities (great for diversity and inclusion).

 

I expect there are all different shades of experience. Some may well be 'marriages of convenience' as well in order to stay in the country. Sounds like the Polish guy has gone native  knows the marriage has to sustain in order for her to live here and not become illegal and is living the life of riley as a result. 

[beautifulthailand99]

4 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

Didn't that other fierce remainer Kieran0001 also say 'they' messed up his registration so he couldn't vote? 

You lot often say Leavers didn't know what they were voting for, but it seems Remainers even struggled with the concept of voting 

One swallow does not a Surin bargirl make .... to paraphrase a well known idiom.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, The Renegade said:

Is that an admission, that for many and varied reasons, being a member of the EU and the € is not really working out for them ?

It is a difficult question to answer, certainly some states have problems, the typical Southern states whose answer to financial problems has always been borrow and devalue, sooner or later those states by themselves would have landed on the scrap heap of history. Greece didn't even have a proper method of collecting taxes, the hated troika fixed that for them and such states have an EU ring through the nose and they are being led for their own good to sensible state finances. Italy, an industrial country, ought not to be so indebted but that didn't start with the EU, if anything they ought to be glad that despite themselves they have a strong currency. I remember whilst on holiday in Greece many years ago before the EU I met an Italian family at my hotel who envied me my DM, the hotel refused to take their Lira for Drachma and they had to wait the whole weekend until the banks opened, no honour among the pauper states apparently. In the unlikely event that the EU dissolves such states would have benefited from their apprenticeship in the EU. Many states, take just Hungary and Poland as examples have hugely benefited from membership,especially Poland which through enhanced knowhow and European investment in industry is no longer poor. When the wall fell in Berlin I made a car journey through the DDR, at the Polish border I asked a German customs officer if it was worthwhile to go to Poland (I think the Poles wanted 30 Dollars to pass customs ) the ex communist guard said don't bother, we've got nothing, they have even less, how times change. It must also be admitted that some regions of the UK have also benefited (yes I know we are a netto payer but do you think the UK would have invested in these regions with the saved money) Also the environment was not a priority before the EU in fact I read somewhere that post brexit the UK will water down the environment laws. Enough now, time for bed, I have my meditation walk at 4:30 pm. Good night to you all.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

Fresh from the BBC

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44136218?intlink_from_url=http://www.bbc.com/news/topics/crr7mlg0d2wt/italy&link_location=live-reporting-story

 

We all know how trying to reform the EU from within is going to work out.

 

 

I had just been reading this on the BBC website when I saw you had posted the link.

 

I’m not sure if people really realise what a radical change is about to happen in Italy; governments and media throughout Europe have been trying to keep a lid on this, but the lid is about to come off.

 

As for the statement by the Commission Vice-President:

  Quote

"I don't see any signs that member states would like to change the rules at least any time soon or give exemptions to any member state," said Commission Vice-President Jyrki Katainen on Tuesday.

 

The EU is already giving exemptions, albeit unwillingly, to the Visegrad 4, other countries see the EU weakness in this, and are prepared to defy the rules.

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

The EU can be reformed from within but it needs consensus from more than one state and patience but instead of getting together and agreeing on two or three principals each state grinds its own corn, again it's me,me,me

And I think this is one of the fundamental flaws of trying to create a 'United States of Europe'. The member states all want different things. 

It would have been much more sensible to stick with a simple EU common market, and forget the federal ambitions. But those in charge just got too greedy.

[CG1 Blue]

12 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

It is a difficult question to answer, certainly some states have problems, the typical Southern states whose answer to financial problems has always been borrow and devalue, sooner or later those states by themselves would have landed on the scrap heap of history. Greece didn't even have a proper method of collecting taxes, the hated troika fixed that for them and such states have an EU ring through the nose and they are being led for their own good to sensible state finances. Italy, an industrial country, ought not to be so indebted but that didn't start with the EU, if anything they ought to be glad that despite themselves they have a strong currency. I remember whilst on holiday in Greece many years ago before the EU I met an Italian family at my hotel who envied me my DM, the hotel refused to take their Lira for Drachma and they had to wait the whole weekend until the banks opened, no honour among the pauper states apparently. In the unlikely event that the EU dissolves such states would have benefited from their apprenticeship in the EU. Many states, take just Hungary and Poland as examples have hugely benefited from membership,especially Poland which through enhanced knowhow and European investment in industry is no longer poor. When the wall fell in Berlin I made a car journey through the DDR, at the Polish border I asked a German customs officer if it was worthwhile to go to Poland (I think the Poles wanted 30 Dollars to pass customs ) the ex communist guard said don't bother, we've got nothing, they have even less, how times change. It must also be admitted that some regions of the UK have also benefited (yes I know we are a netto payer but do you think the UK would have invested in these regions with the saved money) Also the environment was not a priority before the EU in fact I read somewhere that post brexit the UK will water down the environment laws. Enough now, time for bed, I have my meditation walk at 4:30 pm. Good night to you all.

"Also the environment was not a priority before the EU in fact I read somewhere that post brexit the UK will water down the environment laws."

 

That's just more fear mongering.

The UK government are banning all petrol and diesel vehicles from 2040.

The UK government introduced the 5p plastic bag charge dramatically reducing their use.

The UK government want to ban drinking straws, cotton buds and other single use plastics from 2019.

 

It is a myth that the UK would suddenly lose their environmental conscience post-Brexit. A myth that Remainers are too happy to peddle.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

everything here is speculation, the UK will collapse if they sign article 50, didn't happen, at least three or four times a year either the Euro or the EU has been doomsayed, hasn't happened, Trump will be impeached, hasn't happened. Soothsayers are in demand but it isn't a profession, yet. I just join in the dance, I, like you, am biased in one direction, what will really happen and what the consequences will be nobody KNOWS but we can have a giggle guessing. 

Sure, while the EU and UK government are still speculating over different facets of the negotiations, the rest of us have little choice but to do the same. I just think that how the EU goes about dealing with the V4 is a very interesting and important scenario. I really think they don't know what to do, I don't think they have been faced with this kind of defiance before, so I would have been interested in your take on it  ..... mai pen rai 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

Fresh from the BBC

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44136218?intlink_from_url=http://www.bbc.com/news/topics/crr7mlg0d2wt/italy&link_location=live-reporting-story

 

We all know how trying to reform the EU from within is going to work out.

 

 

I posted a short a short analysis a couple of days ago. These parties are polar opposites. Neither will get to appoint a PM let alone cause the EU much grief. The markets are sniggering?

Edited May 16, 2018 by Grouse

[Eloquent pilgrim]

40 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

It is a difficult question to answer, certainly some states have problems, the typical Southern states whose answer to financial problems has always been borrow and devalue, sooner or later those states by themselves would have landed on the scrap heap of history. Greece didn't even have a proper method of collecting taxes, the hated troika fixed that for them and such states have an EU ring through the nose and they are being led for their own good to sensible state finances. Italy, an industrial country, ought not to be so indebted but that didn't start with the EU, if anything they ought to be glad that despite themselves they have a strong currency. I remember whilst on holiday in Greece many years ago before the EU I met an Italian family at my hotel who envied me my DM, the hotel refused to take their Lira for Drachma and they had to wait the whole weekend until the banks opened, no honour among the pauper states apparently. In the unlikely event that the EU dissolves such states would have benefited from their apprenticeship in the EU. Many states, take just Hungary and Poland as examples have hugely benefited from membership,especially Poland which through enhanced knowhow and European investment in industry is no longer poor. When the wall fell in Berlin I made a car journey through the DDR, at the Polish border I asked a German customs officer if it was worthwhile to go to Poland (I think the Poles wanted 30 Dollars to pass customs ) the ex communist guard said don't bother, we've got nothing, they have even less, how times change. It must also be admitted that some regions of the UK have also benefited (yes I know we are a netto payer but do you think the UK would have invested in these regions with the saved money) Also the environment was not a priority before the EU in fact I read somewhere that post brexit the UK will water down the environment laws. Enough now, time for bed, I have my meditation walk at 4:30 pm. Good night to you all.

"Also the environment was not a priority before the EU in fact I read somewhere that post brexit the UK will water down the environment laws.”

 

What, oh come on now, the environment was not a priority anywhere in the world back in the 70’s; I know you want to back your argument, but to credit the EU with making the UK environmentally friendly, is quite frankly, absurd.

 

Mobile phones were not a priority back in the 70’s, so would we not have them now if we hadn't joined the EU; are you trying to credit the EU with all the progress that our great country has made since 1975 ?

 

I would also like to know where you read that the UK will water down the environment laws post Brexit. You really can't just say something like that without providing some evidence, unless you wish to be ridiculed

[nontabury]

11 hours ago, tebee said:

So, you present this document as proof positive that everyone voted for the hardest of hard brexits  - if you are so sure about that why have the government spent the last 2 years negotiating for a completely different brexit ?

What you should say, is the negotiating team, lead by a remoaner T.M. Have not carried out the wishes of the electorate. 

[Grouse]

18 minutes ago, nontabury said:

What you should say, is the negotiating team, lead by a remoaner T.M. Have not carried out the wishes of the electorate. 

What precisely do you dislike about membership of the single market?

[CG1 Blue]

23 minutes ago, Grouse said:

What precisely do you dislike about membership of the single market?

For me it's the fact that to be in the single market we would have to keep freedom of movement, and remain under the ECJ jurisdiction. Presumably the UK would also have to continue paying into the pot, and would be barred from making our own trade deals.

So effectively, we'd still be in the EU but without a seat at the table. No?

[beautifulthailand99]

1 minute ago, CG1 Blue said:

For me it's the fact that to be in the single market we would have to keep freedom of movement, and remain under the ECJ jurisdiction. Presumably the UK would also have to continue paying into the pot, and would be barred from making our own trade deals.

So effectively, we'd still be in the EU but without a seat at the table. No?

Correct so once the whole deal has been examined closely it comes down to staying in the EU , a worse deal than we have now but disaster averted or jump off an economic cliff figuratively. I and many of my countrymen have no desire to join the lemmings in their great flying without wings experiment aka taking back control / hard Brexit. I still hold out some hope that those who are 'managing this' will avoid the latter.  

[CG1 Blue]

16 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Correct so once the whole deal has been examined closely it comes down to staying in the EU , a worse deal than we have now but disaster averted or jump off an economic cliff figuratively. I and many of my countrymen have no desire to join the lemmings in their great flying without wings experiment aka taking back control / hard Brexit. I still hold out some hope that those who are 'managing this' will avoid the latter.  

I have no doubt we could have pushed the EU for a bespoke arrangement that would have been much better for the UK if there were not so many trying to overturn the referendum result.

 

When I voted leave I never expected the hard remainers to destroy our negotiating position. Project Fear should have included this in their warnings...

[oldhippy]

3 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

"Also the environment was not a priority before the EU in fact I read somewhere that post brexit the UK will water down the environment laws.”

 

What, oh come on now, the environment was not a priority anywhere in the world back in the 70’s; I know you want to back your argument, but to credit the EU with making the UK environmentally friendly, is quite frankly, absurd.

 

Mobile phones were not a priority back in the 70’s, so would we not have them now if we hadn't joined the EU; are you trying to credit the EU with all the progress that our great country has made since 1975 ?

 

I would also like to know where you read that the UK will water down the environment laws post Brexit. You really can't just say something like that without providing some evidence, unless you wish to be ridiculed

QUOTE: You really can't just say something like that without providing some evidence, unless you wish to be ridiculed

 

Says the same poster who previously posted:

QUOTE: Hundreds of thousands of fit, healthy looking young men arriving in Europe in their designer jeans, clutching their iPhone’s and iPad’s,

 

Rich!

[aright]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

What precisely do you dislike about membership of the single market?

 EU leaders constantly tell us that we can’t have the benefits of the single market without bearing the costs. What are the costs? They include the membership fee, the requirement to submit to the rulings of the politically-minded European Court of Justice, the application of regulations to all our companies when only a small minority trade in the EU, and our inability to control immigration even when it is economically harmful to our lowest paid workers, including earlier immigrants.

 

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

What precisely do you dislike about membership of the single market?

Small fonts seems to be his main objection.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

What precisely do you dislike about membership of the single market?

Thanks to those who answered. Interesting to get your views!

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

(Just back after taking a rest)

There are already land borders between the EU and non-EU countries that work very well.

The fact is, a hard physical land border isn't necessary in Ireland. Technology and pre-prepared documentation for goods, as is done elsewhere, is the answer. (I posted a BBC video about this some time ago and will post it again if I can find it.)

Passport control is not necessary at the NI/Republic border, but those without a British or EU passport need to be checked coming into the UK or EU, as is rightly necessary now anyway.

 

EU is just clutching at straws as they are financially up the Danube without a paddle.

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2018 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[Orac]

(Just back after taking a rest)
There are already land borders between the EU and non-EU countries that work very well.
The fact is, a hard physical land border isn't necessary in Ireland. Technology and pre-prepared documentation for goods, as is done elsewhere, is the answer. (I posted a BBC video about this some time ago and will post it again if I can find it.)
Passport control is not necessary at the NI/Republic border, but those without a British or EU passport need to be checked coming into the UK or EU, as is rightly necessary now anyway.
 
EU is just clutching at straws as they are financially up the Danube without a paddle.
 

 
 

Can you tell me where these land borders that work very well are that do not have hard borders where goods can be imported/exported.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Orac]

Great descriptions from The Sun reporter in Brussels on our new Home Secretary’s attempts to literally exit the EU yesterday:




Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[The Renegade]

3 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

There are already land borders between the EU and non-EU countries that work very well.

These borders do not work, that is why people traffickers can move millions across these borders, sure, some Countries then adopted physical borders, for some reason the EU took a dislike to this.

 

3 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

EU is just clutching at straws as they are financially up the Danube without a paddle.

We have a winner.

 

As much as we hear the daily hysterics about the £12billion less a rebate every year. This is only 1 payment, the payment of EU membership fees. What is never mentioned is the countless £Billions that goes to fund all the other EU projects. So the true financial cost of EU membership is not known. I suspect it will never be known because if the truth were to out, the British public would be up in arms.

 

Here is about 50 to digest for breakfast

 

https://ec.europa.eu/info/funding-tenders/funding-opportunities/funding-programmes/overview-funding-programmes_en

[The Renegade]

6 minutes ago, Orac said:

Great descriptions from The Sun reporter in Brussels on our new Home Secretary’s attempts to literally exit the EU yesterday:




Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

I did not know it was a legal requirement for Politicians to talk to the press.

 

Thinking about, it would be much better if all Politicians did not speak to the press outside of officially scheduled Press meetings.

 

It would put an end to the many opinion pieces that are peddled as fact. Just like the article that started this 400 page marathon.

[Orac]

I did not know it was a legal requirement for Politicians to talk to the press.
 
Thinking about, it would be much better if all Politicians did not speak to the press outside of officially scheduled Press meetings.
 
It would put an end to the many opinion pieces that are peddled as fact. Just like the article that started this 400 page marathon.

It is not an opinion piece and it was more about the farcical attempt to avoid them.

As for politicians not speaking to the press, you will have yours hands full trying to get that one off the ground since most of them seem to bask in the light of publicity.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Eloquent pilgrim]

20 minutes ago, Orac said:

Great descriptions from The Sun reporter in Brussels on our new Home Secretary’s attempts to literally exit the EU yesterday:




Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Nick Gutteridge describing himself as a journalist. Ha Ha Ha, how farcical. It's about time there was some humour on this thread, thank you Orac for sharing that ??

Edited May 17, 2018 by Eloquent pilgrim

[The Renegade]

17 minutes ago, Orac said:

It is not an opinion piece and it was more about the farcical attempt to avoid them.

You really should try reading and digesting what is written. This is what I wrote and you replied to

 

25 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

It would put an end to the many opinion pieces that are peddled as fact. Just like the article that started this 400 page marathon.

No mention of your article or the twitter feed being an opinion piece.

Edited May 17, 2018 by The Renegade
Typo

[soalbundy]

11 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

"Also the environment was not a priority before the EU in fact I read somewhere that post brexit the UK will water down the environment laws."

 

That's just more fear mongering.

The UK government are banning all petrol and diesel vehicles from 2040.

The UK government introduced the 5p plastic bag charge dramatically reducing their use.

The UK government want to ban drinking straws, cotton buds and other single use plastics from 2019.

 

It is a myth that the UK would suddenly lose their environmental conscience post-Brexit. A myth that Remainers are too happy to peddle.

Today in the Indi (you may not like the paper but they are reporting facts

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-environment-lords-eu-withdrawal-bill-theresa-may-a8354901.html

[The Renegade]

15 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Today in the Indi (you may not like the paper but they are reporting facts

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-environment-lords-eu-withdrawal-bill-theresa-may-a8354901.html

From the article

 

Quote

The latest amendment, aimed at bolstering environmental protection after Brexit, was carried by 294 to 244 votes on Wednesday.

 

Peers argued that enforcement measures proposed in a consultation document published last week were inadequate and that the environment had been subordinated to housing and economic growth.

 

294 thought the measures were inadequate and 244 thought the measures were adequate and just over 300 never voted or did not attend.

 

Read into that what you will, but that looks to me like a straightforward Pro Remain V Pro leave vote with not an iota of concern about the actual content of the Environmental Policy.

 

Quote

and that the environment had been subordinated to housing and economic growth.

And how many voted on a technicality in attempt, yet again, to thwart the Brexit process ?

[Eloquent pilgrim]

33 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Today in the Indi (you may not like the paper but they are reporting facts

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-environment-lords-eu-withdrawal-bill-theresa-may-a8354901.html

First the Sun, now the Independent. This thread is awash with good humour this morning; what a blessing, bring on the Guardian someone please

[tebee]

9 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

 

 

When I voted leave I never expected the hard remainers to destroy our negotiating position. 

We never had a negotiation position other than " You give us everything we want - 'cos we're British and deserve it"