Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[RuamRudy]

7 hours ago, nontabury said:

Salaries for the lower paid have been in decline over the last 30yrs, compared with other countries.

To day while talking to one of my near neighbours, I mentioned this thread on T.V.

He told me that until 5 yrs ago, he was doing fine, had a job at £ 23,000, with his  wife working part time. Then the multi national that he worked for closed his factory down and relocated to the E.U, with he believes help from the Brussels Beurecrats and British tax payers contributions. It took him over one year to obtain alternative employment, unfortunately only at a minimum wage for 30hrs a week =£ 12,500 yr. Then unfortunately his wife also lost her employment, again to a company that relocated to the E.U.

  So now he’s working at this low paid job, alongside a Romanian immigrants, who he blames for keeping his wages down, 

Well for a Romanian with 3 children he’s doing O.K. bragging about the benefits he obtains from the British tax payer. For instance housing benefit for a 3 bedroom house, Child working credits, child benefits. Free school meal x 3.Free council tax. Free schooling x3,free medical care x5 etc,etc,.

Now the wife of my British neighbour has taken another  part time job in spite of the fact, that in doing so she will lose the small benefits that they previously obtained. 2 bedroom housing benefit, one child working benefits, one free school meal. 

 Yet remainers like you seem to think that membership of this so called Union, has benefited the ordinary man in the street, well my neighbour certainly thinks otherwise. And I certainly don’t think he’s alone. Also pointing out to me that he’s worked all his life in the U.K. except for the one yrs unemployment and 5yrs in the Army, including the gulf war. And what is he entitled to now from his country,

free schooling for one child, approx £5,500 a year and free medical care for 3 people. While his E.U. work colleague, resident in the U.K. 3 yrs, obtains free schooling for 3 children £5,500 x 3 = £ 16,500, plus free health care for 5 people.

And again lets not forget that this Romanian, along with the other E.u.immigrants, have just by virtue of being here, have increased the supply of cheap Labour, thus keeping the wages of your lower paid fellow citizens down. 

 So what do many of the remainers think? Well unfortunately they are so selfish, they are only capable of one thing:- 

 

 

 

I don't doubt your neighbour's experiences but what I cannot understand is why the UK is alone in experiencing this. What is it about the UK that draws the cheap labour because, as you say, and as data shows - UK salary growth is second lowest in the EU, on a par with Greece. Why, then, would the Romanians come to the UK if there were better paying jobs elsewhere in Europe? If it is because of the social benefits afforded by the government, that is nothing to do with the EU - those are domestic matters that should be resolved at home. Any thoughts on that?

 

About his military service - we have agreed on this in the past that they way ex-military are treated in the UK is beyond outrageous, but that is something that Westminster and Westminster alone can resolve, if the will was there, which clearly it is not. But pulling us from the EU, even if all economic effects are positive, will see little change for the man in the street - or the men on the streets - until we kick out the corrupt lot in Westminster. I fear that, with the EU, you are tilting at windmills.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

Staying in the Single Market, Customs Union, Schengen Area or any other fancy name that is dictated by Brussels and where the ECJ has supremacy is not leaving the EU.

 

Why do so many people have great difficulty in understanding this ?

We are not in Schengen as you well know

 

It would be sensible to retain membership of the CU and SM for obvious reasons

 

If that means remaining in the EU, so be it. Incidentally, I think there WILL be changes within the EU. Be interesting to see how free movement is adjusted

[The Renegade]

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

It would be sensible to retain membership of the CU and SM for obvious reasons

Being chained to Brussels and the ECJ are not good reasons for staying in the SM or the CU and are obvious reasons leaving the EU, CU and SM.

 

Were your school report cards littered with the words '' Must try harder ''

Edited May 18, 2018 by The Renegade

[Grouse]

Just now, The Renegade said:

Being chained to Brussels and the ECJ are not good reasons for staying in the SM or the CU and are obvious reasons for not staying in the EU, CU and SM.

 

Were your school report cards littered with the words '' Must try harder ''

Your first paragraph makes no sense. May be you could re-organise it so that we can understand your point

 

The second is a flame. Kindly stop the discourtesy.

[The Renegade]

7 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Being chained to Brussels and the ECJ are not good reasons for staying in the SM or the CU and are obvious reasons leaving the EU, CU and SM.

Have another go and tell me what you do not understand

[tebee]

48 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Who is we ?

 

Is that an admission that the EU is full of shoite and is using any means possible, including blackmail to try and ensure that the UK stays shackled to Brussels and the ECJ by being threatened to stay in some sort of Customs Union ?

 

If the EU & ROI want a hard border, go right ahead, fund it build it and provide the manpower for it.

 

Waste of money, time and effort, when it will simply be circumvented.

I'm using we in the sense of people in general.

 

It's not the EU that will require a hard border if we leave CU or SM, it's international law.

 

No border checks is not something the UK would want anyway - imagine what would happen if the Irish government cut the excise duty on Irish whiskey to a pittance? The UK would be flooded with it and have no way to stop it  being distributed. Exchequer and Scottish producers would suffer badly.      

[tebee]

16 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Being chained to Brussels and the ECJ are not good reasons for staying in the SM or the CU and are obvious reasons leaving the EU, CU and SM.

 

Were your school report cards littered with the words '' Must try harder ''

But if we have some sort of FTA with the EU we will need some sort of super national court to settle disputes. It might not be the ECJ but it will have the same functions.

[The Renegade]

20 minutes ago, tebee said:

But if we have some sort of FTA with the EU we will need some sort of super national court to settle disputes. It might not be the ECJ but it will have the same functions.

I think the word you are looking for is Supranational.

 

The UK has already suggested this and not surprisingly it was deemed not workable by the EU.

 

The EU's position is very clear. The UK must be tied at the waist to Brussels and the ECJ, for the EU is there is no other alternative. The UK must not be allowed to fully leave the EU and must continue to hand over £Billions every year.

[Orac]

I think the word you are looking for is Supranational.
 
The UK has already suggested this and not surprisingly it was deemed not workable by the EU.
 
The EU's position is very clear. The UK must be tied at the waist to Brussels and the ECJ, for the EU is there is no other alternative. The UK must not be allowed to fully leave the EU and must continue to hand over £Billions every year.

You surely didn’t expect the EU to agree to a supranational body governing part of their trade that has supremacy over the ECJ did you just so the U.K. can enjoy the benefits of the single market but want to leave the EU - unless this supranational body is answerable to the ECJ of course which defeats the object.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[The Renegade]

7 minutes ago, Orac said:

You surely didn’t expect the EU to agree to a supranational body governing part of their trade that has supremacy over the ECJ did you just so the U.K. can enjoy the benefits of the single market

And this is why the supposed powers that be are going round in circles.

 

I do not expect the EU to agree to anything, the EU's goal is to keep the UK in the EU.

 

But it is a double edged sword, the EU expects the UK to submit to the ECJ when the UK leaves the EU.That is not going to happen either. Trade is not a one way street between the UK and the EU or the EU and the UK

 

Remainers are blind, oblivious or just refuse to see this.

[tebee]

49 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

I think the word you are looking for is Supranational.

 

The UK has already suggested this and not surprisingly it was deemed not workable by the EU.

 

The EU's position is very clear. The UK must be tied at the waist to Brussels and the ECJ, for the EU is there is no other alternative. The UK must not be allowed to fully leave the EU and must continue to hand over £Billions every year.

Thank you for correcting my English again !

 

The problem is to facilitate trade you need some sort of independent court to resolve disputes. Even the WTO has a court system. 

[billd766]

11 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

I think we have to post Brexit look long and hard at who is exactly contributing to the new brighter , freeer Britain which Brexiteers seem to think is  a given once these pesky shackles of the EU have been cast off. And a lot of non Britain's will leave because government policy won't be this laissez-faire every body has a fairchance and that. That may well be the time to consider those who wish to domicile overseas and spend their UK pension in a foreign country rather than keeping the money in Britain where it would contribute to growing this new prosperous Britain. This would be easy low hanging fruit .What think you Thailand retirees - are you prepared to make sacrifices for the greater good ? Maybe Farage could chuck his EU pension into the pot whilst we're at it to start the ball rolling. 

 

Why shouldn't I spend my pensions and live where I want?

 

Much of the tax that I paid during my working life was earned by me outside of the UK.

 

I am already scarificing for the greater good (whose greater good by the way) as my pension has been frozen at the rate I got it in 2009, I have no access to the "free" NHS system, no free bus pass, glasses, dental health, doctors etc.

 

It is MY life to live as I please and not for people like you to say "sacrifice for the good of the UK".  What have YOU "sacrificed for the good of the UK" lately?

[The Renegade]

27 minutes ago, tebee said:

Thank you for correcting my English again !

 

The problem is to facilitate trade you need some sort of independent court to resolve disputes. Even the WTO has a court system. 

 

Your starting to get it.

 

The ECJ is not an independent court.

 

Now how can those highly educated imbeciles that inhabit the great corridors of power within in the EU not get that into their heads ?

 

It is not about understanding, it is not about compromise, it is about keeping the UK in the EU.

Edited May 18, 2018 by The Renegade
Typo

[tebee]

And this is how others see brexit as going .....

 

 

 

[The Renegade]

5 minutes ago, tebee said:

And this is how others see brexit as going .....

Don't you just love all these people who have fully functioning crystal balls and can also see into the future ?

 

 

 

[SheungWan]

35 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Your starting to get it.

The ECJ is not an independent court.

Now how can those highly educated imbeciles that inhabit the great corridors of power within in the EU not get that into their heads ?

It is not about understanding, it is not about compromise, it is about keeping the UK in the EU.

I guess highly uneducated imbeciles have the edge right now.

[beautifulthailand99]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Why shouldn't I spend my pensions and live where I want?

 

Much of the tax that I paid during my working life was earned by me outside of the UK.

 

I am already scarificing for the greater good (whose greater good by the way) as my pension has been frozen at the rate I got it in 2009, I have no access to the "free" NHS system, no free bus pass, glasses, dental health, doctors etc.

 

It is MY life to live as I please and not for people like you to say "sacrifice for the good of the UK".  What have YOU "sacrificed for the good of the UK" lately?

Stayed in country , worked  , paid tax and National Insurance , do part time work in a charity shop. Oh and National Insurance is effectively just another tax - if the pension pot was ringfenced than pensions would be much smaller than they already are - they are effectively paid for out of current tax contributions. Anway after this hard Brexit you so fervently wish for the pound will be rinsed again so in effect you'll take another haircut on your pension. Expat plastic patriots bemoaning the state of democracy in the Uk from an undemocratic , military controlled developing country can't you see the irony in all of this ?

[soalbundy]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Why shouldn't I spend my pensions and live where I want?

 

Much of the tax that I paid during my working life was earned by me outside of the UK.

 

I am already scarificing for the greater good (whose greater good by the way) as my pension has been frozen at the rate I got it in 2009, I have no access to the "free" NHS system, no free bus pass, glasses, dental health, doctors etc.

 

It is MY life to live as I please and not for people like you to say "sacrifice for the good of the UK".  What have YOU "sacrificed for the good of the UK" lately?

Sacrifice for the greater good  and then get kicked in the teeth.

[billd766]

12 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Stayed in country , worked  , paid tax and National Insurance , do part time work in a charity shop. Oh and National Insurance is effectively just another tax - if the pension pot was ringfenced than pensions would be much smaller than they already are - they are effectively paid for out of current tax contributions. Anway after this hard Brexit you so fervently wish for the pound will be rinsed again so in effect you'll take another haircut on your pension. Expat plastic patriots bemoaning the state of democracy in the Uk from an undemocratic , military controlled developing country can't you see the irony in all of this ?

 

What irony. As a UK taxpayer since 1959 until the day I die I have a moral right to equal pensions. I never was bothered that the money that I paid in was to be paid to the generations before me.

 

Why should it. They worked a damn sight harder than the generations that followed them and deserved it.

 

No taxation without representation. Does that ring a bell?

 

Yes I live in Thailand. Does it cost Thailand anything to look after me? Not even 25 satang.

[transam]

4 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

What irony. As a UK taxpayer since 1959 until the day I die I have a moral right to equal pensions. I never was bothered that the money that I paid in was to be paid to the generations before me.

 

Why should it. They worked a damn sight harder than the generations that followed them and deserved it.

 

No taxation without representation. Does that ring a bell?

 

Yes I live in Thailand. Does it cost Thailand anything to look after me? Not even 25 satang.

Yet the UK DOES take care of Thais who have paid sod all with your contributions...

[Eloquent pilgrim]

14 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

I think we have to post Brexit look long and hard at who is exactly contributing to the new brighter , freeer Britain which Brexiteers seem to think is  a given once these pesky shackles of the EU have been cast off. And a lot of non Britain's will leave because government policy won't be this laissez-faire every body has a fairchance and that. That may well be the time to consider those who wish to domicile overseas and spend their UK pension in a foreign country rather than keeping the money in Britain where it would contribute to growing this new prosperous Britain. This would be easy low hanging fruit .What think you Thailand retirees - are you prepared to make sacrifices for the greater good ? Maybe Farage could chuck his EU pension into the pot whilst we're at it to start the ball rolling. 

I hope that you are not an economic advisor to the UK government. UK nationals retiring to Thailand, lift an enormous responsibility from the NHS. I won't call it, as some do, a burden, because people that have worked all their lives and paid income tax and NIC are entitled to whatever treatment they need. However, the UK does not have a reciprocal health care agreement with Thailand, so any health care requirement here must be paid for privately.

 

I had a mole removed and lab tested last year at the Hua Hin branch of the Bangkok hospital, which cost me TB 17,000 (circa £390) and a friend has just been quoted 400,000 (circa £9,200) for a total hip replacement, which he intends to go ahead with.

 

You will understand that people past retirement age are much more likely to need healthcare treatment, and if everyone over retirement age opted out of NHS treatment, all its problems would be solved overnight. Retirees to Thailand also have their pensions frozen at the current rate when they leave, making further savings for the government.

 

However, I am still prepared to support my country of birth, so please tell me what further sacrifices would you like retirees in Thailand to make, and I will consider them; also, do you only want the ones that voted leave to contribute, or do you expect the remain voters to contribute as well.     ??  ??

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

What irony. As a UK taxpayer since 1959 until the day I die I have a moral right to equal pensions. I never was bothered that the money that I paid in was to be paid to the generations before me.

 

Why should it. They worked a damn sight harder than the generations that followed them and deserved it.

 

No taxation without representation. Does that ring a bell?

 

Yes I live in Thailand. Does it cost Thailand anything to look after me? Not even 25 satang.

You are working class, every 4 years you are important for an hour or two, apart from that you are something to be cleaned off the soles of a shoe, it will all be better once you get your country back

[Eloquent pilgrim]

48 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Stayed in country , worked  , paid tax and National Insurance , do part time work in a charity shop. Oh and National Insurance is effectively just another tax - if the pension pot was ringfenced than pensions would be much smaller than they already are - they are effectively paid for out of current tax contributions. Anway after this hard Brexit you so fervently wish for the pound will be rinsed again so in effect you'll take another haircut on your pension. Expat plastic patriots bemoaning the state of democracy in the Uk from an undemocratic , military controlled developing country can't you see the irony in all of this ?

QUOTE

“Expat plastic patriots bemoaning the state of democracy in the Uk from an undemocratic , military controlled developing country”

 

It would only appear to be remain voters that are bemoaning the state of democracy in the UK. Those of us that voted to leave, are blissfully happy with the democratic result of the referendum vote; we love and embrace democracy, we do not bemoan it ????

[Eloquent pilgrim]

57 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Expat plastic patriots bemoaning the state of democracy in the Uk from an undemocratic , military controlled developing country

You obviously dislike Thailand, have you ever been here ??

[beautifulthailand99]

I haven't yet had breakfast and was trolling - all of you are quite right you are a not a burden on the UK taxpayer and yes most of you have paid taxes and NI all your lives and have frozen pensions. That said the UK is sitting on a huge debt and continues spend more than it earns you old guys will see your lives out with your pensions intact no doubt. But they are in pounds and your hard Brexit for those that wish it will be another haircut as teflon baht continues to ride high. I hope your Brexit highlands will be worth it which you wish for from afar - I fully expect my state pension to be means tested when I get to 67 (10 years off ) because that's just facing the reality of the dire economic situation we are in and which Brexit will exacerbate. 

 

So many expats in Thailand like to pontificate about what sh^^hole the UK has become and talk the country down - I for one love it. It's not perfect but pretty good especially so when you compare it to somewhere like Thailand. It's a beautiful spring day , the sun is shining and we have a Royal wedding to celebrate which will be fun even though I'm not a great beleiver. There never was a broken Britain just folk for whom life hadn't turned out like they hoped it would and viewing it through broken glasses - and those too many immigrants - well my wife is one of them and she loves the country too and voted remain.  The leavers were the moaners then .....

[beautifulthailand99]

11 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

You obviously dislike Thailand, have you ever been here ??

30 times in the past 20 years - worked there for a year in 2003 in a high paying job  (76 baht to the pound lived like a King) - so about 2 years in total - last time Jan Mar this year. Long enough to know I and the missus don't want to live there.

[nontabury]

6 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I don't doubt your neighbour's experiences but what I cannot understand is why the UK is alone in experiencing this. What is it about the UK that draws the cheap labour because, as you say, and as data shows - UK salary growth is second lowest in the EU, on a par with Greece. Why, then, would the Romanians come to the UK if there were better paying jobs elsewhere in Europe? If it is because of the social benefits afforded by the government, that is nothing to do with the EU - those are domestic matters that should be resolved at home. Any thoughts on that?

 

About his military service - we have agreed on this in the past that they way ex-military are treated in the UK is beyond outrageous, but that is something that Westminster and Westminster alone can resolve, if the will was there, which clearly it is not. But pulling us from the EU, even if all economic effects are positive, will see little change for the man in the street - or the men on the streets - until we kick out the corrupt lot in Westminster. I fear that, with the EU, you are tilting at windmills.

Probably easier,due to the fact that English is the international language, plus many of these E.U immigrants seem to think that benefits are Easier to obtain in the U.K. then elsewhere in the E.U. Then add on the fact that the British are perceived to be more tolerant and willing to accept these incomers,without resorting to mass demonstrations etc,.

 However the main point I was trying to make, is that many remainers are very selfish people, They consider that this influx of unskilled workers will not effect their lifestyle,including their ability to gain employment elsewhere in the E.U. ( although many did before we joined the E.U.) so it does’t directly effect them, so it’s a case of “I’m alright Jack”. While on the other side,we have the lower paid workers in the U.K seeing their wages being increasingly pressed down by the over supply of cheap E.U. Workers.

 Regarding ex service personnel, I’m glad to see that you also think that the way they are treated is unacceptable, and yes this is not solely the result of our unwanted membership of the E.U. But our being in the E.U does not help.

 As for your comment on those corrupt lot in Westminster, including  those who seek to overturn the democratic vote of the British people. I completely agree.

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

I haven't yet had breakfast and was trolling - all of you are quite right you are a not a burden on the UK taxpayer and yes most of you have paid taxes and NI all your lives and have frozen pensions. That said the UK is sitting on a huge debt and continues spend more than it earns you old guys will see your lives out with your pensions intact no doubt. But they are in pounds and your hard Brexit for those that wish it will be another haircut as teflon baht continues to ride high. I hope your Brexit highlands will be worth it which you wish for from afar - I fully expect my state pension to be means tested when I get to 67 (10 years off ) because that's just facing the reality of the dire economic situation we are in and which Brexit will exacerbate. 

 

So many expats in Thailand like to pontificate about what sh^^hole the UK has become and talk the country down - I for one love it. It's not perfect but pretty good especially so when you compare it to somewhere like Thailand. It's a beautiful spring day , the sun is shining and we have a Royal wedding to celebrate which will be fun even though I'm not a great beleiver. There never was a broken Britain just folk for whom life hadn't turned out like they hoped it would and viewing it through broken glasses - and those too many immigrants - well my wife is one of them and she loves the country too and voted remain.  The leavers were the moaners then .....

"I hope your Brexit highlands will be worth it which you wish for from afar - I fully expect my state pension to be means tested when I get to 67 (10 years off ) because that's just facing the reality of the dire economic situation we are in and which Brexit will exacerbate."

 

And there goes another remainer, pretending they can predict the future. Just over 10 years ago the world was ticking along nicely, then all of a sudden markets collapsed, banks folded, and the financial world changed forever.

 

We live on such an unpredictable, ever changing planet.  What makes you think you know the net outcome of all the economic positives and negatives over the next 10 years? What makes you think staying in the EU would insulate the UK from negative impacts over the next 10 years? If the EU collapses in the next 10 years, do you think the UK would be better off out or in?

 

At least Brexiteer aspirations are real, measurable and predictable. Out of the EU means control of our own borders, fisheries etc., no ECJ power and no laws made from Brussels, plus freedom to make our own global trade deals.

 

 

 

 

[HAKAPALITA]

What baffles me is this Vote thing. You have had one, so why another because you cant stand by the first. Are the Babies to want another 10 till they get their own way.?.

[soalbundy]

1 hour ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

30 times in the past 20 years - worked there for a year in 2003 in a high paying job  (76 baht to the pound lived like a King) - so about 2 years in total - last time Jan Mar this year. Long enough to know I and the missus don't want to live there.

Nothing wrong with that, each to his own. I knew when I was 21 that I couldn't continue to live in the UK, it bored me to death and I left permanently for Germany, the rest of my family left for Australia. I have lived in Thailand for the last 13 years since my retirement, I'm happy here, Thailand's troubles don't bother me here in the sticks, for me it is far better than the UK, I am 70 now so the UK is a distant memory, rather like a foreign country that I once visited but wouldn't want to go back to.