Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[tebee]

1 minute ago, The Renegade said:

Europe  will never speak and act as 1 block. Think the Russians might have something to say about that.

Indeed, this might be part of the reason for Brexit....

[soalbundy]

Just now, The Renegade said:

Europe  will never speak and act as 1 block. Think the Russians might have something to say about that.

Who knows things can change quickly in politics, another 20 years and a new political direction and maybe Russia could be in the EU, no more Nato and just three main blocks, USA, China and Europe, the world would be a simpler, safer place. 

[The Renegade]

4 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Who knows things can change quickly in politics,

Especially within the EU

 

From rampant remainer George Osborne's new job

 

Quote

Now it’s not just the Visegrad Group — the Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia and Hungary — that want immigration controls and a stop to further integration, but nearly every EU country including, most poignantly, Italy.

Even Mark Rutte, the Dutch prime minister and longest-serving liberal head of a European government, is increasingly outspoken about how the EU is not “an unstoppable train speeding towards federalism”, and that France and Germany are not the only EU countries which matter.

 

Could Italy’s new government be the flash point? The coalition led by Luigi di Maio of MoVimento Cinque Stelle (M5S), together with Matteo Salvini’s League, want cuts to immigration and debt forgiveness of up to €250 billion (£220 billion) among other demands.

https://www.standard.co.uk/business/margareta-pagano-eu-must-learn-to-change-but-without-the-brits-it-s-doomed-a3845471.html

 

That change had better start happening quickly, or it is curtains for the EU.

[Grouse]

13 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

I am not being pedantic, and the meaning you attach to it is not near enough. I am not calling you out for a typo or punctuation, but for the completely incorrect use of a word.

 

Ironic that is you leavers that are always telling us that people of greater intellect and a better educational standard  voted to remain, while those that voted for Brexit were of a lower educational and social standing.

 

I guess I should be thanking you for exposing the myth

When I say I feel "quite disenfranchised" it is a saying. You understand precisely what I mean. We use our language in many similar ways to exaggerate a point, for emphasis or for irony for example.

 

Statistical analysis of the referendum vote showed that people with tertiary education tended to vote remain. Older people tended to vote leave. These are correlations. In fact there will be Gaussian distributions and therefore outliers.

[Grouse]

8 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Especially within the EU

 

From rampant remainer George Osborne's new job

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/business/margareta-pagano-eu-must-learn-to-change-but-without-the-brits-it-s-doomed-a3845471.html

 

That change had better start happening quickly, or it is curtains for the EU.

Thanks for the article. I have been saying for a long time the the EU needs flexibility and change to avoid brittle fracture. We should be pushing for this from within instead of running off.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

Despite many stories in the last few days that the Italian President would block the newly formed coalition’s choice of Prime Minister, this has appeared on the BBC website overnight  ….. arrivederci

 

QUOTE

“Italy president names novice Giuseppe Conte as populist PM

 

Italy's President Sergio Mattarella has accepted a political novice as prime minister, paving the way for two populist parties to form a government.

 

The anti-establishment Five Star Movement and right-wing League chose law professor Giuseppe Conte in a bid to end 11 weeks of political deadlock.

The 53-year-old has faced claims that he embellished his CV, which he denies.

 

Concerns remain over the two parties, which reject years of EU austerity and want to renegotiate Italy's debt.

Speaking after emerging from talks with the president, Mr Conte said: "Outside of this palace there's a country that rightfully awaits a new government and answers. What is about to be born is the government of change."

 

He added that he would be the "defender of all Italians on the international and European stage” Italy has been without a government since elections on 4 March, because no political group could form a majority.

 

Two populist party leaders, Luigi di Maio of the Five Star Movement and Matteo Salvini of the League, finally agreed a coalition deal after days of talks and later nominated Mr Conte as their candidate to be prime minister.

 

The coalition deal promises tax cuts, a guaranteed basic income for the poor and deportations of 500,000 migrants - policies that are likely to put the eurozone's third biggest economy on a collision course with Brussels”

[The Renegade]

22 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Thanks for the article. I have been saying for a long time the the EU needs flexibility and change to avoid brittle fracture. We should be pushing for this from within instead of running off.

As I, and many others have said. For the blinkered EU, the only change that is acceptable to them is more EU, more money and more Brussels control.

 

How people and politicians of the remain variety cannot see that this is the wrong answer and will cause the demise of the EU is truly a conundrum. after all these people keep claiming to be highly educated.

 

Perhaps highly educated and lacking in an ounce of common sense might be an appropriate description.

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Despite many stories in the last few days that the Italian President would block the newly formed coalition’s choice of Prime Minister, this has appeared on the BBC website overnight  ….. arrivederci

 

QUOTE

“Italy president names novice Giuseppe Conte as populist PM

 

Italy's President Sergio Mattarella has accepted a political novice as prime minister, paving the way for two populist parties to form a government.

 

The anti-establishment Five Star Movement and right-wing League chose law professor Giuseppe Conte in a bid to end 11 weeks of political deadlock.

The 53-year-old has faced claims that he embellished his CV, which he denies.

 

Concerns remain over the two parties, which reject years of EU austerity and want to renegotiate Italy's debt.

Speaking after emerging from talks with the president, Mr Conte said: "Outside of this palace there's a country that rightfully awaits a new government and answers. What is about to be born is the government of change."

 

He added that he would be the "defender of all Italians on the international and European stage” Italy has been without a government since elections on 4 March, because no political group could form a majority.

 

Two populist party leaders, Luigi di Maio of the Five Star Movement and Matteo Salvini of the League, finally agreed a coalition deal after days of talks and later nominated Mr Conte as their candidate to be prime minister.

 

The coalition deal promises tax cuts, a guaranteed basic income for the poor and deportations of 500,000 migrants - policies that are likely to put the eurozone's third biggest economy on a collision course with Brussels”

I'm quite upraised 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

32 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Thanks for the article. I have been saying for a long time the the EU needs flexibility and change to avoid brittle fracture. We should be pushing for this from within instead of running off.

Yes indeed, but that is exactly what we tried to do, and Cameron was sent home like a scolded schoolboy. We tried pushing for change from within, and most importantly, we did so just before a referendum that was to be fought on these very issues. The arrogance and indifference of the EU and the insouciance of Cameron will be indelibly etched on the history of Europe

[The Renegade]

6 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

He added that he would be the "defender of all Italians on the international and European stage”

And that is the key phrase.

 

All the Anti-EU and Anti € rhetoric has disappeared and replaced with '' Defender of all Italians '' The policies advocated by the new Government are designed for a head to head with the EU. Let the EU object to these policies and it's goodnight and goodbye Brussels.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

13 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

Please don't give that hateful, anti-British piece of sh* James O'Brien any more attention than he already gets.

That is, without a doubt, the lowest I have seen on this thread for a while. The humanity and compassion James O'Brien displays in all the media in which he works is genuine and significant. You may not like the message because he puts the inherently kafkaesque unfairness of Brexit into perspective, but to call him anti British and insult him because of that shows just how threatened you feel by the truth. Yours is a genuinely shameful post.

[dick dasterdly]

14 minutes ago, Grouse said:

When I say I feel "quite disenfranchised" it is a saying. You understand precisely what I mean. We use our language in many similar ways to exaggerate a point, for emphasis or for irony for example.

 

Statistical analysis of the referendum vote showed that people with tertiary education tended to vote remain. Older people tended to vote leave. These are correlations. In fact there will be Gaussian distributions and therefore outliers.

There is no way that "statistical analysis'"can know that " people with tertiary education tended to vote remain. Older people tended to vote leave."  Age and education are not stated on ballot papers - they were anonymous.  It's an assumption based on bias.

 

A more accurate correlation (IMO), would be between those living in poor areas with many immigrants and low salaries - who have seen little benefit from being part of the eu.

 

Having said this, it seems likely that those surviving on minimum wage are are less likely to have had a good education.  On the other hand, pretty much anyone can go to college/university nowadays (intelligence is not a requirement) - it keeps the unemployment statistics down...  So I've no respect for the argument that the college attending young are more intelligent or knowledgeable than the older generation.

[dick dasterdly]

30 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Thanks for the article. I have been saying for a long time the the EU needs flexibility and change to avoid brittle fracture. We should be pushing for this from within instead of running off.

And others have pointed out time and time again that the eu has proven that there was no chance of reform from within.

 

Even now, the eu prefers bullying, scare tactics rather than reform ?.

[dick dasterdly]

54 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Who knows things can change quickly in politics, another 20 years and a new political direction and maybe Russia could be in the EU, no more Nato and just three main blocks, USA, China and Europe, the world would be a simpler, safer place. 

Simpler and safer for the elite - certainly not ordinary or poor people.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

13 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

And that is the key phrase.

 

All the Anti-EU and Anti € rhetoric has disappeared and replaced with '' Defender of all Italians '' The policies advocated by the new Government are designed for a head to head with the EU. Let the EU object to these policies and it's goodnight and goodbye Brussels.

 

 

 

Absolutely ........ every policy this coalition proposes, and everything that they say, will have  Juncker and associates sliding deeper into their padded leather chairs, than even Farage at his most rumbustious had them.

 

This coalition are the bodacious new wave of Italy, put yer tin hats on, a bit sharpish

[RuamRudy]

Another potential hammer blow for British businesses, and one that could directly impact me.

Brexit: Technology-based customs system 'could cost GBP20bn'

 

Besides my regular oilfield-trash job, I am partner and director in a company that imports groceries for retail distribution in Philippines. About 40% of our purchases are from small artisan food manufacturers in the UK. We try to keep logistics costs low by consolidating our orders - 2 or 3 pallets per supplier is not uncommon, all shipped together in a 40' container, meaning I could easilly have 6 or more different suppliers within one shipment. Shipping alone currently costs around 2,500 pounds for ambient goods and as much as 4,000 pounds for temperature controlled items. If I need to add another 8-10% to those logistics costs for Brexit related documentation, it makes a big difference to our margins.

 

I genuinely want to support British businesses for a variety of reasons, not least that I want British companies to succeed, but do I want to spend time, money and effort to develop a brand regionally now, knowing that there is a strong likelihood that additional costs will make it uncompetitive in the near future?

[aright]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

Thanks for the article. I have been saying for a long time the the EU needs flexibility and change to avoid brittle fracture. We should be pushing for this from within instead of running off.

The "One day I will win the lottery" argument

[The Renegade]

31 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I am partner and director in a company that imports groceries for retail distribution in Philippines.

If that is the case then you should already know that the system that you quote is for the movement of goods between UK - EU - UK 

 

There should be little or no change to the current system of moving goods between the UK - RoW - UK.

 

Why are you seeing drama when there is no drama to be seen ?

[Jip99]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

And others have pointed out time and time again that the eu has proven that there was no chance of reform from within.

 

Even now, the eu prefers bullying, scare tactics rather than reform ?.

 

Didn’t Cameron go off and fail to do just that?

[HAKAPALITA]

What have You Remoanie Brits Done !!.?.. Now everytime a European Football Team looses, they demand a Replay.    Even Mercedes have told Red Bull if they win at Monaco they want to race again and again untill they win..?️

[tebee]

38 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Another potential hammer blow for British businesses, and one that could directly impact me.

Brexit: Technology-based customs system 'could cost GBP20bn'

 

Besides my regular oilfield-trash job, I am partner and director in a company that imports groceries for retail distribution in Philippines. About 40% of our purchases are from small artisan food manufacturers in the UK. We try to keep logistics costs low by consolidating our orders - 2 or 3 pallets per supplier is not uncommon, all shipped together in a 40' container, meaning I could easilly have 6 or more different suppliers within one shipment. Shipping alone currently costs around 2,500 pounds for ambient goods and as much as 4,000 pounds for temperature controlled items. If I need to add another 8-10% to those logistics costs for Brexit related documentation, it makes a big difference to our margins.

 

I genuinely want to support British businesses for a variety of reasons, not least that I want British companies to succeed, but do I want to spend time, money and effort to develop a brand regionally now, knowing that there is a strong likelihood that additional costs will make it uncompetitive in the near future?

 Max fac won't fly anyway.

 

The so-called maximum facilitation model will never be accepted by the 27 side of the table. Not now. Not in five years. Not in 105 years. Because, consistent with what I said earlier about what the Customs Union actually is, no technological solution, current or future, ever solves the problem. You can have the most facilitated border in the world, but it’s still a facilitated border. And, as an external border of the EU, rather than the internal border we have now, it cannot look the same.

 

An explanation from the Freight Trade Association too.

 

“A haulier could lift a full trailer in Birmingham but it could contain 40 different consignments from 40 different producers. Then it comes to Northern Ireland and is broken down with mixed loads on different trucks going to different places, so a tracking device telling you the original truck had crossed the border does not tell you anything… Customs is only the tip of the iceberg and the biggest problem is sanitary and phytosanitary checks on agrifood. Twenty per cent of meat has to be checked and 50 per cent of chicken.”

 

 

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

If that is the case then you should already know that the system that you quote is for the movement of goods between UK - EU - UK 

 

There should be little or no change to the current system of moving goods between the UK - RoW - UK.

 

Why are you seeing drama when there is no drama to be seen ?

 

If I can be assured that those costs won't be spread by manufacurers across all their exports, and restricted to only their EU exports then there would, indeed, be no cause for concern. But until I can receive such assurances, my uncertainty remains - that is my point. I am seeing drama because I enough uncertainty in my business; the less of it, the better for my nerves.

[tebee]

13 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

If that is the case then you should already know that the system that you quote is for the movement of goods between UK - EU - UK 

 

There should be little or no change to the current system of moving goods between the UK - RoW - UK.

 

Why are you seeing drama when there is no drama to be seen ?

Max fac will involve tracing all goods moving in the UK whether they are imported or not - if there is no customs barrier between UK and EU that is the only way to satisfy rules of origin requirements - you will need to prove goods declared as UK goods on export  did in fact originate in the UK.

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, tebee said:

 Max fac won't fly anyway.

 

Has there been an overview prepared of all the possible options, their feasbility, cost, acceptability to the outside world etc?

[The Renegade]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

If I can be assured that those costs won't be spread by manufacurers across all their exports, and restricted to only their EU exports then there would, indeed, be no cause for concern

 

Sorry, forgive me but this has to be said.

 

You are looking for the impossible. 2 assurances in life, taxes and death. Everything else is a challenge for you to deal with.

[tebee]

9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

If I can be assured that those costs won't be spread by manufacurers across all their exports, and restricted to only their EU exports then there would, indeed, be no cause for concern. But until I can receive such assurances, my uncertainty remains - that is my point. I am seeing drama because I enough uncertainty in my business; the less of it, the better for my nerves.

A trace of every movement from manufacturer to export is also needed as I said above, so you would be affected.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

11 minutes ago, tebee said:

If I need to add another 8-10% to those logistics costs for Brexit related documentation, it makes a big difference to our margins

May I ask what Brexit related documentation you think that you will need, and how you estimated that it will add 8-10% to your logistical costs  ..... thanks 

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

Max fac will involve tracing all goods moving in the UK whether they are imported or not

Yes tebee, of course they will.

 

Curry's or comet delivering a washing to a customers house will have to sign it up to Max Fac.

 

Why oh why do people have to talk such drivel ?

 

 

[tebee]

7 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

[Jip99]

11 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

 

Sorry, forgive me but this has to be said.

 

You are looking for the impossible. 2 assurances in life, taxes and death. Everything else is a challenge for you to deal with.

 

 

Don’t............ he already thinks he is a partner AND a director...........