3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

UK politicians made a bad mistake (from their POV) in allowing a referendum on the subject - as they fought to pretend to the electorate that they cared about their opinion ?!

Agreed

 

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

But they did, as they were stupid enough to think fear tactics would ensure a remain vote.

Agreed

 

I would also add that the EU also badly misread the situation when they sent Cameron scurrying back to the UK with a flea in his ear.

 

They were all so wrapped up in their EU love in that there could be no other result other than remain.

 

 

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

it was - no matter how you wish otherwise, you can't change that.

And you can't change the obligation that any UK government now has - to leave the EU.

10 minutes ago, nauseus said:

No. The reasons for "procrastination" are as I already explained, except I use the words: bullying, hampered, meddling, and block in place of procrastination.

 

You sound like Project Fear, Junior Edition.

Project fear = Project reality

1 minute ago, tebee said:

Oh I'm quite happy anywhere in the world, Many Brexiters want to make the UK much more like Thailand anyway.

Did you go to Assumption University then?

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

And you can't change the obligation that any UK government now has - to leave the EU.

no they haven't

Just now, tebee said:

Project fear = Project reality

In your own wee world.

1 minute ago, tebee said:

no they haven't

Rehearsing for the Christmas panto already?

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

Did you go to Assumption University then?

ERG group want a bonfire of regulations - inconvenient ones like workers rights, minimum wages, safety rules and planning law. To me that sounds a lot more like Thailand than Europe.

 

Sadly I don't think they can get the weather to thai standards though.

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Did you go to Assumption University then?

Nah

 

Poundland crystal balls are amazing ?

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

In your own wee world.

We are slowly boiling the Brexit frog (bulldog?) things are happening, prices are rising, jobs are going. We have not even left yet. People will start to notice one day - though even I have no way of knowing if that day will be too late.

 

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Rehearsing for the Christmas panto already?

The MPs are required to vote in the best interests of their constituents, if enough of them decide that would be best served by stopping Brexit, then it will happen. 

17 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Agreed

 

Agreed

 

I would also add that the EU also badly misread the situation when they sent Cameron scurrying back to the UK with a flea in his ear.

 

They were all so wrapped up in their EU love in that there could be no other result other than remain.

 

 

To be fair, the eu knew that cameron was 'on their side'/pretending to look for extra 'favours' , and it was just a political side-show in an attempt to quell those pretending to support the massive anti-eu sentiment in the country....

 

Neither the eu or cameron seriously thought that things would get so bad in the governing party that it would be necessary to call a referendum!  And even when it was eventually necessary (politically....), they were still entirely out of touch as to the 'mood' of the electorate on the issue - and assumed that the electorate could be easily cowed into a remain vote ?!

6 minutes ago, tebee said:

The MPs are required to vote in the best interests of their constituents,

You best have that argument with Grouse, he is adamant that they do not.

 

Come on tebee, astound us all with your knowledge. How many Constituencies voted to leave and how many voted to remain ?

 

A 4 - 1 vote in favour of triggering Article 50 would be about correct in terms of Constituencies.

 

I will make it simple for you, either a load of MP's are lying bastards, or they are selling their constituents down the river.

 

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

The MPs are required to vote in the best interests of their constituents, if enough of them decide that would be best served by stopping Brexit, then it will happen. 

And what makes you think that MPs know what is best for their constituents, some of them don't even know what day of the week it is.

 

Both sides will enjoy 'Tracy (Ullman) breaks the news' on BBC iPlayer ?

8 minutes ago, tebee said:

The MPs are required to vote in the best interests of their constituents, if enough of them decide that would be best served by stopping Brexit, then it will happen. 

Clearly not true when it comes to MPs in leave constituencies....

 

There's a recent example (can't remember his name) who represented a leave constituency, but insisted that his constituents preferred to remain....

8 minutes ago, vogie said:

And what makes you think that MPs know what is best for their constituents, some of them don't even know what day of the week it is.

 

They certainly had no idea as to the mood of the majority of their constituents prior to the referendum!

18 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

You best have that argument with Grouse, he is adamant that they do not.

 

Come on tebee, astound us all with your knowledge. How many Constituencies voted to leave and how many voted to remain ?

 

A 4 - 1 vote in favour of triggering Article 50 would be about correct in terms of Constituencies.

 

I will make it simple for you, either a load of MP's are lying bastards, or they are selling their constituents down the river.

 

It doesn't matter., they are not there to mindlessly reflect the voting intentions of their constituents, they have to make their own minds up. This is what representative democracy means!   

33 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Clearly not true when it comes to MPs in leave constituencies....

 

There's a recent example (can't remember his name) who represented a leave constituency, but insisted that his constituents preferred to remain....

Bracknell MP, Phillip Lee. Held the seat in 2015. Probably won't win there again! He must be a smart man but another one who seems to consider his own opinions and views above those of the constituents that voted him in. Not the best example of representative democracy! 

21 hours ago, The Renegade said:

???

 

As a newbie, I must admit, I am struggling to recall you debating anything. All I seem to see are snide remarks, insulting remarks and all round general nothingness in the way of debate.

 

The word you are looking for is Decorum. 

 

As you are so unhappy, perhaps you should Brexit the thread.

 

I disagree. His presence and remarks reflect the arrogance and selfishness of many on the remain side. It’ s just a pity that he was not the spearhead and spokesman for the remain side, prior to the referendum. If that had been the case, it would have probably produced a vote of 80% in favour of Brexit.

 

21 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

 

How I hark back for those halcyon days where neighbours were friends, Britain was great... 

 

Am I now to understand,that you have given up your support for the Scottish Nationalist.

10 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

Am I now to understand,that you have given up your support for the Scottish Nationalist.

I think your correct, he was actually spotted walking past the BBC studios yesterday.

 

 

While remainers content themselves with squabbling about peripheral matters, they seem perfectly happy to ignore the huge issues that are undermining the whole EU project and shattering its unification, which is the very foundation on which it was built.

 

I posted earlier about the massive problem Frau Merkel is facing, as her interior minister Horst Seehofer, threatens to issue an order on Monday that some migrants must be rejected at the border, in direct conflict to her policies.

 

Now President Macron has suddenly seen the necessity of appeasing the anti-migrant feeling that is sweeping through the whole of Europe. This, only days after 3 of his main backers accused him of moving to the right; with his political future at risk, he has ignored them and lurched further right.

 

The EU is imploding as we watch, Merkel is in the isolation ward, and refuses to discharge herself. Why anyone still wants us (the UK) to remain in this disintegrating Union is a most perplexing mystery 

 

This from the Times overnight

 

****Macron backs Italian call for ‘fortress Europe’

Adam Sage, Paris | Bel Trew

June 16 2018, 12:01am, 

The Times

 

 

 

President Macron threw his weight behind Italy’s vision of “fortress Europe” yesterday by backing moves to stop economic migrants crossing the Mediterranean and deport those who do.

 

In the latest sign that attitudes are hardening across the continent, he sought to woo Italy’s new populist government with the promise of a Europe-wide crackdown on the illegal immigrants he said formed the vast majority of those arriving from Africa. His words appear to leave Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, more isolated than ever in her attempt to keep open the door to Europe.

 

His meeting in Paris yesterday with Giuseppe Conte, Italy’s prime minister, had almost been cancelled as tensions ran high over migration. Mr Macron had accused Italy of acting “cynically and irresponsibly” by refusing to accept 629 migrants picked up in the Mediterranean by the Aquarius, a charity rescue vessel. Mr Conte had retorted by denouncing the French attitude as hypocritical and saying that Paris had always turned its back on migrants.

 

The spat fuelled a sense of panic in the EU as Italy and Austria teamed up with Horst Seehofer, Germany’s hardline interior minister, in an “axis of the willing” to defy Mrs Merkel by demanding a crackdown.

 

Amid warnings that the EU could split apart over the issue, Mr Macron, who has cast himself as the champion of European integration, expressed support for Mr Conte’s call for Europe to reform its asylum system to distinguish between genuine refugees and economic migrants before they left Africa. “We want to create European centres outside Europe to handle asylum claims before migrants reach Europe,” he said at the Élysée Palace.

 

 

He said a “large majority” of those crossing the Mediterranean were economic migrants with no claim to refugee status. “Today, you have men, women and children who have no chance of getting asylum in Europe who are dying in the Mediterranean or getting to Europe and living in unworthy conditions. Is that right? No.” ****

5 hours ago, soalbundy said:

after which they will castigate the government for the poor state of the country and the high unemployment and/or the low paying poor quality jobs. The government is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

We are now unfortunately in the E.U. Along with an unacceptable high number of low paying poor quality jobs. One of the main reasons for this,is the surge of unrestricted labour, due to the E.U. Imposed free movement of workers and their dependents. Hopefully when we take our country back, there will be rules put in place to only allow those with the necessary and required skills to obtain a work visa, disregarding their nationality.

7 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

While remainers content themselves with squabbling about peripheral matters, they seem perfectly happy to ignore the huge issues that are undermining the whole EU project and shattering its unification, which is the very foundation on which it was built.

 

I posted earlier about the massive problem Frau Merkel is facing, as her interior minister Horst Seehofer, threatens to issue an order on Monday that some migrants must be rejected at the border, in direct conflict to her policies.

 

Now President Macron has suddenly seen the necessity of appeasing the anti-migrant feeling that is sweeping through the whole of Europe. This, only days after 3 of his main backers accused him of moving to the right; with his political future at risk, he has ignored them and lurched further right.

 

The EU is imploding as we watch, Merkel is in the isolation ward, and refuses to discharge herself. Why anyone still wants us (the UK) to remain in this disintegrating Union is a most perplexing mystery 

 

This from the Times overnight

 

****Macron backs Italian call for ‘fortress Europe’

Adam Sage, Paris | Bel Trew

June 16 2018, 12:01am, 

The Times

 

 

 

President Macron threw his weight behind Italy’s vision of “fortress Europe” yesterday by backing moves to stop economic migrants crossing the Mediterranean and deport those who do.

 

In the latest sign that attitudes are hardening across the continent, he sought to woo Italy’s new populist government with the promise of a Europe-wide crackdown on the illegal immigrants he said formed the vast majority of those arriving from Africa. His words appear to leave Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, more isolated than ever in her attempt to keep open the door to Europe.

 

His meeting in Paris yesterday with Giuseppe Conte, Italy’s prime minister, had almost been cancelled as tensions ran high over migration. Mr Macron had accused Italy of acting “cynically and irresponsibly” by refusing to accept 629 migrants picked up in the Mediterranean by the Aquarius, a charity rescue vessel. Mr Conte had retorted by denouncing the French attitude as hypocritical and saying that Paris had always turned its back on migrants.

 

The spat fuelled a sense of panic in the EU as Italy and Austria teamed up with Horst Seehofer, Germany’s hardline interior minister, in an “axis of the willing” to defy Mrs Merkel by demanding a crackdown.

 

Amid warnings that the EU could split apart over the issue, Mr Macron, who has cast himself as the champion of European integration, expressed support for Mr Conte’s call for Europe to reform its asylum system to distinguish between genuine refugees and economic migrants before they left Africa. “We want to create European centres outside Europe to handle asylum claims before migrants reach Europe,” he said at the Élysée Palace.

 

 

He said a “large majority” of those crossing the Mediterranean were economic migrants with no claim to refugee status. “Today, you have men, women and children who have no chance of getting asylum in Europe who are dying in the Mediterranean or getting to Europe and living in unworthy conditions. Is that right? No.” ****

Thanks Pilgrim. Glad you put up the full story as I don't have a subscription. Not sure if the remainers will be able to bear reading it to the end. The economic side of the migrant issue has been going on for at least a full decade and at a steadily increasing rate. Until 2015, Italy had to bear the brunt of this business, which was organized for profit by people smugglers, mainly in Libya.

 

Unfortunately, the pre-existing smuggling, along with the Merkel madness of 2015, has probably made it harder for genuine refugees to find a safe place. High time to differentiate real refugees from opportunists.      

5 minutes ago, nontabury said:

We are now unfortunately in the E.U. Along with an unacceptable high number of low paying poor quality jobs. One of the main reasons for this,is the surge of unrestricted labour, due to the E.U. Imposed free movement of workers and their dependents.

Which is exactly why the Swiss are digging their heels in.

 

Quote

Special measures to protect Swiss wages and working conditions remain a red line in the country’s negotiations for a new relationship with the European Union, Swiss foreign minister Ignazio Cassis said on Friday.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-swiss-eu-talks/labor-market-rules-remain-a-red-line-in-eu-talks-swiss-foreign-minister-idUSKBN1JB2KY

50 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Bracknell MP, Phillip Lee. Held the seat in 2015. Probably won't win there again! He must be a smart man but another one who seems to consider his own opinions and views above those of the constituents that voted him in. Not the best example of representative democracy! 

But only "smart" when it comes to his own, personal interests...

 

He clearly couldn't give a damn about the opinion of the constituency he is supposed to represent...

1 hour ago, tebee said:

It doesn't matter., they are not there to mindlessly reflect the voting intentions of their constituents, they have to make their own minds up. This is what representative democracy means!   

You and grouse are of one mind when it comes to parliamentary sovereignty.

 

You both think it means ignoring the votes of the electorate - even after one of the very rare referendums - and the govt. promising to enact the wishes of the electorate!

14 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

You and grouse are of one mind when it comes to parliamentary sovereignty.

 

You both think it means ignoring the votes of the electorate - even after one of the very rare referendums - and the govt. promising to enact the wishes of the electorate!

Government can promise whatever it wants - does not change the constitutional duties of the MPs. Has the concept that politicians might lie never occured to you ?  

2 hours ago, tebee said:

It doesn't matter., they are not there to mindlessly reflect the voting intentions of their constituents, they have to make their own minds up. This is what representative democracy means!   

Is it possible that you could stop talking garbage ?

 

Quote

The UK public elects Members of Parliament (MPs) to represent their interests and concerns in the House of Commons.

https://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/mps/