Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[The Renegade]

For the remainers that still keep cheering about how open and democratic the EU is.

 

We all know that today there is an '' EU Summit '' that does not include 12 EU Leaders. How democratic ?

 

What we did not know, was

 

Quote

Italy’s prime minister, Giuseppe Conte, agreed to go to Brussels only after Merkel abandoned a set of pre-written conclusions. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/24/eu-leaders-migration-summit-offers-lifeline-to-angela-merkel

 

For sure, the EU is a beacon of democracy, honesty, transparency and club of 28 equal members.

 

 

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, The Renegade said:

For the remainers that still keep cheering about how open and democratic the EU is.

 

We all know that today there is an '' EU Summit '' that does not include 12 EU Leaders. How democratic ?

 

What we did not know, was

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/24/eu-leaders-migration-summit-offers-lifeline-to-angela-merkel

 

For sure, the EU is a beacon of democracy, honesty, transparency and club of 28 equal members.

 

 

I see asylum seekers are down 50% on last year and 80% on 2016. More are now dying in transit. Are you happy with this?

[SheungWan]

10 hours ago, The Renegade said:

The only promise I listened to during the Referendum was

'' Leave means Leave '' I took that to mean in its entirety. Rip up the whole lot and start from scratch.

What you take Brexit to mean is irrelevant though you may wish it otherwise. It is for Parliament and Government to decide what it means in practice and that process is on-going. Wailings on forums by Hard Brexiteers are just so much mood music.

[tebee]

The thing about the referendum is that back then no-one really knew the sort of Brexit we were going for whereas now, 2 years later, thanks to the progress the government has made, no-one really knows what sort of Brexit we’re going for....

[Laughing Gravy]

21 hours ago, tebee said:

The government’s entire position continues to be the wholly illusory fantasy that it is possible to be both outside the EU and yet, in some magical way, to continue to enjoy most of the benefits of being a member.

 

It’s important to understand this central fact: Brexit is in many people’s view undesirable, but the form in which it is being pursued, even if it were desirable, is impossible.

 

Yet whilst pursuing a course which, to get anywhere near achieving it, would require maximum flexibility from the EU, goodwill has been shredded by bellicose rhetoric, accusations of punishment, and hostility and suspicion about ‘the other side’. Perhaps the most damaging aspect of the British approach has been the way that immediately after have reached the phase 1 agreement senior Brexiters, including David Davis, seemed to imply that they were not bound by it.

 

It is important to keep remembering what happened during the referendum, because the claims made during the campaign, and the claims made about the campaign since then, continue to structure the current debate.

 

It has become fashionable to say that both campaigns were equally dishonest, but that simply is not so. Leave mainlined on what even they admitted was a lie about the EU budget contribution and NHS funding, and another lie about impending Turkish membership of the EU.

 

And these were just the headline lies. Beneath them were a myriad of others, such as that future terms could be sorted out informally before Article 50 was even triggered so there was no danger of a cliff-edge fallout; that the Irish border would be unaffected; or that a good, quick exit deal was assured because ‘German car makers’ would insist on it as endlessly claimed by Brexiters, including businessman Peter Hargreaves who paid for a leaflet to be sent to every UK household at the start of the campaign urging a leave vote.

 

No one has ever been held to account for these and all the other lies told during the campaign. Since then, we’ve also learned enough about the conduct of the Leave campaign and possible Russian interference to, at the very least, place a cloud over the legitimacy of the result.

 

By contrast, Remain was certainly pedestrian and passionless, but its projections (based on assumptions and models, of course, but not lies) of the consequences were not ‘Project Fear’, as repetitively and routinely alleged, but attempts to counter the vague and unsubstantiated claims of Leave that all would be well, or even rosy, if we left. It’s notable that such claims have since been repudiated by many Brexiters, most recently Nigel Farage.

 

There are reams that could, have been, and will be written about all this. The outcome we know: a narrow victory for leave. The narrowness is important as it means there was never the unequivocal result subsequently claimed. That is why the Brexiters constantly talk about it having been the biggest vote in British history – meaning the total number of votes cast was the highest – as if that implied an overwhelming vote for Brexit. In fact, the most accurate way of describing the result would be that the country replied ‘we don’t really know’.

 

Moreover, the combination of Leave’s lies and their failure to specify what leaving meant in terms of the future means that there is not (as many Leavers seem to sense) any real mandate for Brexit, and certainly not hard Brexit. Many leading leavers campaigned on the basis of staying in the single market, for all that they deny it now. Others, like Michael Gove, talked ambiguously of being part of a “free trade zone that extends from Iceland to the Russian border” whilst making no budget payments and having no ECJ jurisdiction. If that meant anything, it meant being, like Iceland, in EFTA/EEA.

 

From these lies, ambiguities and confusions much has flowed. Crucially, the fact that Britain voted against being in the EU but not for anything else. The claims now made by Brexiters that the vote itself mandated hard Brexit (in the sense of leaving the single market and any form of customs union) is very easily disproved. If it were true, it would not have taken seven months of argument and speculation before this meaning was announced by Theresa May in her Lancaster House speech of January 2017.

Oh dear, some posters either have selective memory or are just lying to themselves and peddling nonsense that in the hope people might believe them. I find this thread like the others to be tedious and rarely comment. But when people are talking absolute nonsense. Same as the leaflet sent to every household which was extreme biased but people knew what they were voting for. Sprouting nonsense that they didn't is a lie. If the government did what the people voted for we wouldn't be in this situation. The EU are desperate to keep the UK  and its money in the EU.

The op, you sound like you work for Junker. ?

 

 

 

 

 

[SheungWan]

I had to laugh at this:

"I have enjoyed brexit day in the traditional brexit manner. I threw all my money, prospects and relationships into a bin and blamed it on the guy with an accent who lives three roads over."

??

[SheungWan]

29 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Oh dear, some posters either have selective memory or are just lying to themselves and peddling nonsense that in the hope people might believe them. I find this thread like the others to be tedious and rarely comment. But when people are talking absolute nonsense. Same as the leaflet sent to every household which was extreme biased but people knew what they were voting for. Sprouting nonsense that they didn't is a lie. If the government did what the people voted for we wouldn't be in this situation. The EU are desperate to keep the UK  and its money in the EU.

The op, you sound like you work for Junker. ?

The biggest nonsense is the Hard Brexiteer one which rambles on and on, for ever and ever about how they hold the keys to the Brexit process, which of course they don't. The Brexit process is held by the Government of the day through Parliament and no amount of youtube videos and hysteria is going to change that, particularly when said Hard Brexiteers shot their bolt and hung themselves out to dry when they tied their colours to Royal Prerogative. Since that collapsed they have been headless chickens and nothing has changed.

[The Renegade]

5 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

I had to laugh at this:

"I have enjoyed brexit day in the traditional brexit manner. I threw all my money, prospects and relationships into a bin and blamed it on the guy with an accent who lives three roads over."

??

Great job.

 

A piece of absolute garbage gives you a laugh.

 

Another day, and another poster destroys the myth that remainers are educated ??

 

Sublime, keep them coming.

[Laughing Gravy]

9 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

The biggest nonsense is the Hard Brexiteer one which rambles on and on, for ever and ever about how they hold the keys to the Brexit process, which of course they don't. The Brexit process is held by the Government of the day through Parliament and no amount of youtube videos and hysteria is going to change that, particularly when said Hard Brexiteers shot their bolt and hung themselves out to dry when they tied their colours to Royal Prerogative. Since that collapsed they have been headless chickens and nothing has changed.

OK if you say so. Maybe David Cameron just said them things for the fun of it or he was on an episode of Jeremy Kyle!.

 

Anyway as I have said the whole situation is becoming tedious.  Maybe this is agreeable to everyone. ?

 

[dick dasterdly]

14 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

The biggest nonsense is the Hard Brexiteer one which rambles on and on, for ever and ever about how they hold the keys to the Brexit process, which of course they don't. The Brexit process is held by the Government of the day through Parliament and no amount of youtube videos and hysteria is going to change that, particularly when said Hard Brexiteers shot their bolt and hung themselves out to dry when they tied their colours to Royal Prerogative. Since that collapsed they have been headless chickens and nothing has changed.

No, and your hysteria and ridiculous accusations on the subject isn't going to change anything either.  Both hard-core remainers and leavers are equally as guilty when it come to "no amount of youtube videos and hysteria is going to change that".

 

As has been pointed out time and time again, the voters knew what they were voting for - as per the propaganda leaflet sent out by the govt. explaining why we should remain within the eu.  Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on one's point of view), it also made it very clear that the govt. would abide by the result of the referendum result.

 

Most of your post is pure, hysterical rubbish.

 

I agree that probably most that voted leave thought the eu and uk govts. would negotiate sensibly on a trade agreement that suited both parties, which hasn't happened.....  We probably differ on the reasons for this.....

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

The biggest nonsense is the Hard Brexiteer one which rambles on and on, for ever and ever about how they hold the keys to the Brexit process, which of course they don't. The Brexit process is held by the Government of the day through Parliament and no amount of youtube videos and hysteria is going to change that, particularly when said Hard Brexiteers shot their bolt and hung themselves out to dry when they tied their colours to Royal Prerogative. Since that collapsed they have been headless chickens and nothing has changed.

Yes, nonsense. Brexiteers here are not rambling on and on (at all) about how they hold the keys to the Brexit process. It seems that the hysterics are proprietary to the remainers.

 

 

 

[aright]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Yes, nonsense. Brexiteers here are not rambling on and on (at all) about how they hold the keys to the Brexit process. It seems that the hysterics are proprietary to the remainers.

 

 

 

Agreed. 

Remainers seem to lack progressive views. They find it is easier to focus on the problems rather than address the opportunities. In my businesses, I ultimately make the  decision to follow a new path, but before I make that decision I try to involve all pertinent individuals and group representatives. I listen intently to their views and arguments prior to making my final decision. People who don't sign up to my decision root and branch don't last long in my employ.

Those who voted remain , need to look at how they can continue to hold their values and have a positive effect on the chosen outcome..

 

[tebee]

The problem is there are no new opportunities opened up by brexit - unless you count becoming a third world country an opportunity.

[tebee]

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/in-numbers-uk-jobs-lost-to-brexit-so-far-this-year/22/06/

[aright]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

The problem is there are no new opportunities opened up by brexit - 

You just proved my point.

[The Renegade]

11 minutes ago, tebee said:

The problem is there are no new opportunities opened up by brexit

 

8 minutes ago, aright said:

You just proved my point.

Neg - heads will only ever be neg - heads.

 

There is no hope for them.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

5 hours ago, SheungWan said:

I had to laugh at this:

"I have enjoyed brexit day in the traditional brexit manner. I threw all my money, prospects and relationships into a bin and blamed it on the guy with an accent who lives three roads over."

??

 

Wow, what a stunningly original and fabulously funny anecdote; you must have been rolling uncontrollably on the floor for hours. How embarrassing !

[The Renegade]

14 minutes ago, tebee said:

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/in-numbers-uk-jobs-lost-to-brexit-so-far-this-year/22/06/

So how many jobs have been lost due to Brexit tebee ?

 

Lets take a look at it 

 

Quote

Along with the Airbus announcement that 100,000 jobs could leave our shores,

• Jaguar Land Rover is set to cut 1,000 jobs due to Brexit ‘headwinds’, with the West Midlands (a staunch Brexit-voting region) bearing the brunt of the cuts.
• PoundWorld was unable to secure the jobs of its 5,100-strong workforce.because of Brexit-linked inflation.
• HSBC and UBS are to shift 1,000 jobs each from UK in Brexit blow to London
• A former UK financial district leader has predicted 75,000 Brexit job losses elsewhere.
• The chief executive of JP Morgan said it could cut its 16,000 UK workforce by more than a quarter if financial rules diverge after Brexit.
• EasyJet jobs could go after it applied for a new air operator’s certificate (AOC) in Austria to allow it to continue flying in the European Union after Brexit, setting up a headquarters in Vienna.
• Siemens has warned time is running out to secure a Brexit deal.
• Unilever is moving corporate headquarters to Rotterdam, even though it has claimed the decision is not Brexit-related.

JLR move has been on the cards pre - Brexit

 

Poundworld collapsed due to mismanagement.

 

NOT 1 SINGLE JOB in your article has been lost due to Brexit.

 

And remainers question why they get ridiculed ??

 

???

[tebee]

39 minutes ago, tebee said:

The problem is there are no new opportunities opened up by brexit - unless you count becoming a third world country an opportunity.

 

36 minutes ago, aright said:

You just proved my point.

Name one then!

[The Renegade]

7 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

Name one then!

Regardless of how many times you shout it - The UK will not become a  3rd World Country.

 

1. So in your neg-head world that has got to be a benefit.

 

2. You accuse Brexiters of living in the past - Yet use a phrase like 3rd World Country.

 

Drag yourself in to today - The term is emerging Countries / Markets.

[aright]

23 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

Name one then!

The geopolitical, self determination, constitutional etc gains made by leaving.

[SheungWan]

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

Yes, nonsense. Brexiteers here are not rambling on and on (at all) about how they hold the keys to the Brexit process. It seems that the hysterics are proprietary to the remainers

 

4 hours ago, aright said:

Agreed. 

Remainers seem to lack progressive views. They find it is easier to focus on the problems rather than address the opportunities. In my businesses, I ultimately make the  decision to follow a new path, but before I make that decision I try to involve all pertinent individuals and group representatives. I listen intently to their views and arguments prior to making my final decision. People who don't sign up to my decision root and branch don't last long in my employ.

Those who voted remain , need to look at how they can continue to hold their values and have a positive effect on the chosen outcome..

Other than the pointless splutterings from our Hard Brexiteer friends absolutely nothing in response to the legal fact that Brexit is the responsibility of the Government and Parliament. Oh! And the additional political reality that their previous political heroes (Ministers Johnson, Davis, Gove, Fox) are currently nowhere to be found other than hinting at bringing down the Government. Why? Because they at least know what will be the outcome and have the marbles to know when to pull back. Unlike our forum contributors who seem to have absolutely zero understanding of the meaning of process.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

 

Other than the pointless splutterings from our Hard Brexiteer friends absolutely nothing in response to the legal fact that Brexit is the responsibility of the Government and Parliament. Oh! And the additional political reality that their previous political heroes (Ministers Johnson, Davis, Gove, Fox) are currently nowhere to be found other than hinting at bringing down the Government. Why? Because they at least know what will be the outcome and have the marbles to know when to pull back. Unlike our forum contributors who seem to have absolutely zero understanding of the meaning of process.

Well process this. I was referring to your baseless point about leavers rambling.

 

Now you are just rambling anew. 

 

SOS

[Kieran00001]

4 hours ago, The Renegade said:

So how many jobs have been lost due to Brexit tebee ?

 

Lets take a look at it 

 

JLR move has been on the cards pre - Brexit

 

Poundworld collapsed due to mismanagement.

 

NOT 1 SINGLE JOB in your article has been lost due to Brexit.

 

And remainers question why they get ridiculed ??

 

???

Quote

“This is a 10-year operation. In the short term it won’t be noticeable in terms of staff. Banks won’t be putting out press releases saying they are moving some of their operations because of Brexit because they don’t want the publicity. They are just getting on with it."

“Those who suggested that some business would move were accused of scaremongering,”

Asked whether the government was aware of the daily bleed of financial services to the rest of the EU, Boleat said: “Not enough, that’s the worry. It needs business to talk to MPs, not to give their view on Brexit, but to explain to them ‘this is what I am having to do because of Brexit’. This is not scaremongering, this is reality.”

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jun/20/uk-could-lose-10bn-a-year-in-city-related-tax-revenue-after-brexit-mark-boleat

[tomacht8]

4 hours ago, The Renegade said:

 - snip -

NOT 1 SINGLE JOB in your article has been lost due to Brexit.

I agree.
The whole company leaders of global companies are all jerks.
The warnings about the planning uncertainty and the possible loss, or the relocation of jobs is only project fear.

Brexit is now the sacred cow.
Faith is known to move mountains.

Heil Brexit.

[nontabury]

26 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jun/20/uk-could-lose-10bn-a-year-in-city-related-tax-revenue-after-brexit-mark-boleat

 

Do you know what Could means ?

[Grouse]

13 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Great job.

 

A piece of absolute garbage gives you a laugh.

 

Another day, and another poster destroys the myth that remainers are educated ??

 

Sublime, keep them coming.

And still the huge chip won't stay down. What is so upsetting about education?

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jun/20/uk-could-lose-10bn-a-year-in-city-related-tax-revenue-after-brexit-mark-boleat

Yes, that sounds right to me

 

The big manufacturers with heavy capital investment will be the ones making a noise in the hope that parliament will hear and keep in the CU and SM and thus avoid them the expense of running down U.K. Facilities and ramping up elsewhere within the EU. What choice do they have?

[lincolnshire poacher]

On 2/28/2018 at 5:47 AM, Blackheart1916 said:

Ridiculous article. From the Guardian, so any semblance of reality is fleeting at best. So none of these problems existed before the Brexit vote? I doubt it. Anti Brexit people are like anti Trumpers - blame for any and all ills, real or imagined, are laid at the doorstep of Brexit and Trump. You got beat, get over it, carry on. If the quick Brexit had been started, it would almost be finished now, but the anti Brexit crowd seem to now enjoy being perpetually aggrieved.

You are right that people were sleeping on the streets before Brexit, but more will join them before long when trade is decimated and everything becomes more expensive. The turkeys have voted for Xmas to take back control of what ?With Mays Tories in charge it will  be supercharged austerity. The bright Europeans that were working in the UK and paying taxes, will be replaced by islamic riff raff, fine if you fancy some sharia law in a few years time, but I didn't, I moved with my wife to Thailand Bye bye Britain, it was great knowing you.

[lincolnshire poacher]

8 hours ago, The Renegade said:

So how many jobs have been lost due to Brexit tebee ?

 

Lets take a look at it 

 

JLR move has been on the cards pre - Brexit

 

Poundworld collapsed due to mismanagement.

 

NOT 1 SINGLE JOB in your article has been lost due to Brexit.

 

And remainers question why they get ridiculed ??

 

???

I see that you are game for a laugh !