Family Permit ( British Embassy Bkk )

[ayalgueru]

I am spanish and I live in London.

I am marrying my thai girlfriend in BKK in feb ( we are currently living together in london) , now I will be taking a 3 week holiday after that I had to go back to my job.

If someone happens to know , how long would they normally take to process the permit in the british embassy in london and could they process it quicker should someone need to fly back by a particular date I mean, would they take that into account ?

thanks

regards

[the scouser]

I'm sure it was a slip of the typing finger, but it is the British embassy in Bangkok to which you should be applying. In a straightforward application, you may hear back within 4 days.

Scouse.

[londonthai]

in case of my wife it was an interview - 5 weeks waiting

ps the first time we applied, just after the marriage, the permit was refused on the ground 'marriage of convenience'

Edited January 22, 2007 by londonthai

[topfield]

in case of my wife it was an interview - 5 weeks waiting

ps the first time we applied, just after the marriage, the permit was refused on the ground 'marriage of convenience'

Dear londonthai,

Can you please give the month and year this happened as the statistics I saw ,showed just three FP refusals at the British Embassy Bangkok two of which were refusal to renew existing mutilated permits.

Also did you get the Embassy to reverse their decision or did you apply for and obtain the FP at a different posting ? I ask this because if it is adjudged that a marriage is one of convenience ie a marriage entered into purely for immigration purposes, by definition it cannot change into a genuine marriage.

Finally were the initials of the ECO who refused your wife CW as it was she who issued all three FP refusals referred to above.

Thank you.

PS Your English is superb for a non Brit. Are you Dutch Danish or Swedish ?

Edited January 23, 2007 by topfield

[londonthai]

my wife (or girlfriend than) applied for a tourist visa in april 2005, postponed her interview, we got married and delivered marriage certificate in june to strengthen the application. In July she was refused even tourist visa on the ground of marriage of convenience. We did not appeal that decision as we thought it will be a waste of money (I think we would have to pay some 7k) and we did no re-apply, this time for a family permit, because again we thought it will be the waste of money and time.

went to poland in november 2005, sorted out polish temporary stay, after some 2 months of problems with the consulate (she couldn't understand the accent and the formal expressions of the interviewer, was told to come back with a translator, went with an english to english translator - was told to come back with thai-english translator) got 6 months family permit in June 2006 and came to London on several occasions.

went back to bangkok in november 2006 to finish our home and to see her family (the yearly ticket was expiring), on 8.12 went for a permit and got interview for 23.01.2007 (today). Because she suppose to start teaching in warsaw at the beginning of january she withdraw her application but later we postponed the teaching to allow more time for my wife to finish our home.

the next week she will be going to poland and applying there. if you want her telephone number in bkk pm me

[the scouser]

I don't think the British embassy in Bangkok quite understands the concept of how to assess a family permit application. Whilst they have the right to interview applicants, this should only be where there is sufficient doubt about the application, and such interviews should not be placed in the normal settlement queue; i.e. you shouldn't have to wait six weeks. In your wife's situation, I don't see how they can doubt the authenticity of the family permit application when she's already been issued one by the embassy in Poland. I'd ask them for a written statement of upon which legislation they are relying to make the dependant of an EEA national wait 6 weeks for interview, in direct contravention of their treaty rights.

I would suggest that the next time your wife travels to the UK she applies to the Home Office for a residence permit. This will be valid for 5 years and will avoid the need to get another family permit.

Scouse.

[londonthai]

yes, we were both very suprised when they told us to wait 6 weeks in the queue - especially that she has NI number and a company (self-employement) in the UK.

yes, I have already a resident permit application filled up for her which will be send to the home office as soon as she is back in London. The small problem is she will have to hand out her passport together with the application and there is not timescale how long the residency application can take. She has to travel to poland back and forth because she has a semi-permanent but a well paid teaching job there.

the last time I have applied for a resident permit (for myself) I had to call them after the several months of waiting and ask them to return the passport as I had to travel to thailand. Within the few days I got my passport (and resident permit card) send back to me.

what's the usual timescale for the resident permit and how can it be speeded up?

[the scouser]

The Home Office is bound by law to make a decision within 6 months of the application, but, within that timescale, your guess is as good as mine. There's neither rhyme nor reason to it: some just get dealt with quicker than others, although a letter to the Home Office requesting that they urgently look at the matter can be of assistance if your reason is genuine enough.

Scouse.

[topfield]

I am spanish and I live in London.

I am marrying my thai girlfriend in BKK in feb ( we are currently living together in london) , now I will be taking a 3 week holiday after that I had to go back to my job.

If someone happens to know , how long would they normally take to process the permit in the british embassy in london and could they process it quicker should someone need to fly back by a particular date I mean, would they take that into account ?

thanks

regards

Dear Polish Friend,

I am certain Scouse is 100 percent correct . It seems that , as he wrote below, certain staff at the Embassy Bangkok have not been properly trained in the law concerning Family Permits which is mandatory (not concessionary as with non EU , standard British settlement visas .)

The Treaty of Rome gives you THE RIGHT as a Polish national who works in the UK to take your Thai wife and children to live with you to the UK.

" don't think the British embassy in Bangkok quite understands the concept of how to assess a family permit application. Whilst they have the right to interview applicants, this should only be where there is sufficient doubt about the application" (the Scouser, immigration expert)

[londonthai]

adressed to the guy with a spanish passport - I do hold polish one and was even born there but I don't have nationality, any nationality.

I think the staff at the consulate know their duties - but they are 'difficult' on purpose, to make the life for the prospective visa holders as difficult as possible.

[GU22]

I don't know that they are difficult on purpose, but I do know that the large number of bogus applications does make them very wary. DSPs Chapter 21 , para 21.4.1 - Handling and assessing applications for EEA family permits, says

Under EC law, priority must be given to applications for family permits. Wherever possible a decision should be made at the time it is lodged or after the interview is conducted. Applicants for EEA family permits should not be put into a settlement queue and an interview should be conducted as soon as possible. However, there is no requirement int he Regulations to say that EEA Family Permits must be issued on the day the application is made. Where doubts exist (for example whether applicants are related as claimed) further enquiries may be made, but these should also be given priority.

.

[the scouser]

However, the embassy in Bangkok appears to be routinely interviewing family permit applicants, which is outside of the spirit of the law, especially bearing in mind that the onus is not on the applicant to demonstrate that their relationship is genuine, but on the embassy to show that it's not. The visa section shouldn't therefore be interviewing as a matter of course, in the hope of finding something, but, rather, only where they have good grounds to suspect that something is awry.

Furthermore, the reason for the need of an interview should be explained to the applicant, which, it seems, the embassy in Bangkok is not doing. They are also evidently placing family permit applications in the settlement queue in direct contravention of their own instructions. I would argue that should an interview be deemed necessary, it should take place at the first available opportunity, certainly within a matter of days rather than weeks.

Scouse.

[topfield]

Three cheers for Scouse......he is one hundred percent right !!

The only question is what can one do when a posting decides to take the law into their own hands.

Their latest nonsense is to refuse to recognise ALL Amphur divorces of English nationals and suggest that the applicant obtains his divorce in England.

This is not gossip but have firm evidence of this happening with one particular case worker being behind this recent change of Embassy policy ...yet backed up in this nonsense by the current Entry Clearance Manager !

[Hugh Jarse]

FAO GU22

I was very interested to read that you know of bogus application to the BE in BKK for familly permits. Do you work at the embassy or hav e strong connections with the embassy to support this assertion? Readers of this forum would be extremely interested in your answer to the above . If you do not reply to this question we must assume that you are either staff or have a familly or other close connection with the embassy. Otherwise how could you possibly have access to such sensitive internal information.

Thank you for your attention to this very important topic.

[ayalgueru]

hello scouse

yes it was a mistype. I will be applying to BE in BKK.

Fingers crossed mine will be a straighforward application. I have a good job and have been working for the same company in london for the last 5 years so there should be no reasons why I would be marrying her for any dodgy reasons. I will get HR of my work to mail them details regarding my employment.

on top of that we have been living together in london for the last 6 months and have utility bills , bank statments and that ..

So I can only hope it will be quick ,

Thanks to all

and either way I will let you all know !

[the scouser]

I'd get a proper letter from the HR dept., rather than an e-mail. You can then enclose the letter with the application.

Scouse.

[ayalgueru]

I'd get a proper letter from the HR dept., rather than an e-mail. You can then enclose the letter with the application.

Scouse.

yes I will get a proper letter from HR dept not just an email they are quite good with that sort of thing.

thanks for advice

ayalgueru

[erikr_]

I don't think the British embassy in Bangkok quite understands the concept of how to assess a family permit application. Whilst they have the right to interview applicants, this should only be where there is sufficient doubt about the application, and such interviews should not be placed in the normal settlement queue; i.e. you shouldn't have to wait six weeks. In your wife's situation, I don't see how they can doubt the authenticity of the family permit application when she's already been issued one by the embassy in Poland. I'd ask them for a written statement of upon which legislation they are relying to make the dependant of an EEA national wait 6 weeks for interview, in direct contravention of their treaty rights.

I would suggest that the next time your wife travels to the UK she applies to the Home Office for a residence permit. This will be valid for 5 years and will avoid the need to get another family permit.

Scouse.

I know the British embassy in Bangkok does not at all understand the concept on how to assess a family permit application (several investigations going on). But that will all be in an article in June (planning) and believe me the stats are incorrect. Just some points that will be covered in the article (not just covering EEA Family Permits) :

- embassy invites for interview as soon as someone is just recently married, not looking at existing relation. According to European law the length of the marriage is not to be used in consideration unless there is reason to believe there is a marriage of convenience as there is no evidence of an existing relationship (backed by 4 individual cases)

- embassy does use uk immigration law on european law cases (backed by 2 individual cases)

- embassy does not comply with IAT instructions (backed by 7 individual cases)

- quality of notice of refusal (to many cases to count on fingers)

- lack of compliance management at the BE Bangkok

The list is long and by the time it goes to print I will get back on it, might just put a pdf on it for the people here

there are lucky for us a lot of straightforward dealt cases but to many indeed are mistreated resulting in ukvisas breaking European and human rights. Curious when someone will start claiming compensation for unneeded inflicted emotional damages

Edited January 24, 2007 by erikr_

[erikr_]

hello scouse

yes it was a mistype. I will be applying to BE in BKK.

Fingers crossed mine will be a straighforward application. I have a good job and have been working for the same company in london for the last 5 years so there should be no reasons why I would be marrying her for any dodgy reasons. I will get HR of my work to mail them details regarding my employment.

on top of that we have been living together in london for the last 6 months and have utility bills , bank statments and that ..

So I can only hope it will be quick ,

Thanks to all

and either way I will let you all know !

Should be done within about 3 days,

- make sure you have evidence of cohabitation (lots of pictures, hotel bills on both names, reservations for earlier trips etc)

- make sure you have many emails between the partners

- make sure you show phone bills for both partners contacting each other

- show correct history on how you met and time frame

- show you are exercising treaty rights (HR letter from employer)

- show you have adequate housing available (not a requirement but beneficial)

officially indeed you should only have to show marriage license, passports and employment evidence and they are obliged to hand a family permit. But that they haven't learned yet (probably first need some lawsuits against UK Visas in European courts/British courts to let them realize that) so for now make sure you show a clear existing relation and contacts initiated by both partners individually to take the wind out their sails.

If that is shown it should be straight forward procedure, even at the BE in Bangkok.

[topfield]

hello scouse

yes it was a mistype. I will be applying to BE in BKK.

Fingers crossed mine will be a straighforward application. I have a good job and have been working for the same company in london for the last 5 years so there should be no reasons why I would be marrying her for any dodgy reasons. I will get HR of my work to mail them details regarding my employment.

on top of that we have been living together in london for the last 6 months and have utility bills , bank statments and that ..

So I can only hope it will be quick ,

Thanks to all

and either way I will let you all know !

Should be done within about 3 days,

- make sure you have evidence of cohabitation (lots of pictures, hotel bills on both names, reservations for earlier trips etc)

- make sure you have many emails between the partners

- make sure you show phone bills for both partners contacting each other

- show correct history on how you met and time frame

- show you are exercising treaty rights (HR letter from employer)

- show you have adequate housing available (not a requirement but beneficial)

officially indeed you should only have to show marriage license, passports and employment evidence and they are obliged to hand a family permit. But that they haven't learned yet (probably first need some lawsuits against UK Visas in European courts/British courts to let them realize that) so for now make sure you show a clear existing relation and contacts initiated by both partners individually to take the wind out their sails.

If that is shown it should be straight forward procedure, even at the BE in Bangkok.

Do not worry EricR the matter is currently being investigated by the EU Commission following a complaint by a Cypriot gentleman whose wife was turned down without any explanation or reason being given. The ECO concerned refused point blank to answer the huband when he asked reason replying only "your wife will never be permitted to come to the UK" ! The .....lawsuits as you write above are unnecessary . These junior clerks at the Embassy have to be taught that EU Family Permits are not the same as non EU internal UK visas. The former are obligatory the latter discretionary. Sadly a British citizen has no RIGHT to bring his wife anf family to the UK but a EU citizen has that Right to do so.

[ayalgueru]

I agree with you. it does not make a lot of sense. After all british citizens are EU citizens too.

Having said that I ( being a spaniard ) will have to go through an interview with the spanish embassy before my marriage is valid in before the eyes of the spanish civil registry ( and therefore in EU). I believe that only after that would I be able to apply for a family permit in BE in BKK.

Or could I just have a Thai ( amphur is that what is called ) marriage and then apply for my wife's family permit in BE in BKK withouh passing first for spanish embassy ?

We may be settling in spain later but this would be in a few years time so no mad rush for spanish permits for her just yet.

cheers ,,,

[the scouser]

I don't know what the Spanish requirements are for marriage registration, but as far as the UK is concerned, an amphur marriage is perfectly acceptable with no additional formalities.

Scouse.

[ayalgueru]

I don't know what the Spanish requirements are for marriage registration, but as far as the UK is concerned, an amphur marriage is perfectly acceptable with no additional formalities.

Scouse.

sorry I do not mean to be repetitive . I just want to make sure I understood it right.

So you are saying that for the purposes of applying for EEA family permity in BE in BKK all I need is my passport and the marriage licence ( and supporting documents Hr letter , mails , pictures , bills and so on. So hopefully they do not us in the interview list)

so having the amphur marriage registered in the spanish civil registry ( in this case spanish ambassy ) would not be a requirement for applying for a family permit BE in BKK ?

That would be great news in terms of me having enough time to get things done while I am in BKK since I could apply for family permit straight away without waiting for the dealings with spanish embassy.

thanks

regards

[londonthai]

from my experience - you go to your own embassy before the marriage for a document allowing you to marry in thailand, have to translate into thai and stamped by the police (this can be done within a few hours and some 1k baht fee).

you can at some stage legalise the marriage by the spanish state - but you don't need it to apply for a family permit

[GU22]

so having the amphur marriage registered in the spanish civil registry ( in this case spanish ambassy ) would not be a requirement for applying for a family permit BE in BKK ?

Correct.

As far as the UK is concerned the Ampur registration is enough. In fact, British citizens who marry in Thailand cannot register their marriage at the BE. All they can do is arrange for the embassy to lodge a copy of their Thai marriage certificate at the central records office in London. As far as British law is concerned you have already registered your marriage at the Ampur and so cannot do so again somewhere else.

Whether not registering the marriage at the Spanish embassy will cause you any problems should you later decide to return to Spain, I don't know.

The affirmation of freedom to marry mentioned by Londonthai above is a requirement of Thai law, and you will need to sign one at your embassy, have it translated into Thai and stamped by the MFA before you can register your marriage at an Ampur.

Edited January 25, 2007 by GU22

[erikr_]

Do not worry EricR the matter is currently being investigated by the EU Commission following a complaint by a Cypriot gentleman whose wife was turned down without any explanation or reason being given. The ECO concerned refused point blank to answer the huband when he asked reason replying only "your wife will never be permitted to come to the UK" ! The .....lawsuits as you write above are unnecessary . These junior clerks at the Embassy have to be taught that EU Family Permits are not the same as non EU internal UK visas. The former are obligatory the latter discretionary. Sadly a British citizen has no RIGHT to bring his wife anf family to the UK but a EU citizen has that Right to do so.

Topfield I am not worried at all, I just commented on the situation in general and having inside in several cases I happen to know of 3 lawsuits being prepared/running. But to come back on your sadly for the British citizins: Sadly a German citizen has no RIGHT to bring his wife and family to Germany but a EU citizen has that Right to do so. Sadly a Belgian citizen has no RIGHT to bring his wife and family to Belgium but a EU citizen has that Right to do so. etc

lucky for the British citizens they have the same rights in the other European countries as other European citizins even though they are not in Schengen

But then we are in the end all in the same camp

[GU22]

lucky for the British citizens they have the same rights in the other European countries as other European citizins even though they are not in Schengen

Just to be a pedant, under EU and EEA treaty law, the right to freedom of movement is given to European citzens. This is a basic freedom overriding national legislation. This right is nothing to do with the Schengen agreement. The UK and RoI are governed by the EU and EEA treaties on this matter, but have not fully signed up to the whole Schengen agreement, they are both only signatories of the Council Decision (covering police co-operation) but not the Council Regulations (covering asylum, visas and border controls).

The perversity in this, as you said, is that every state which has signed these EU and/or EEA (but not Schengen) treaties must, with certain exceptions, issue a family permit to the non European spouse of the citizen of another European state free of charge. However they do not have to do so to the spouse of one of their own citizens; they can refuse such applications and charge whatever fee they like.

Edited January 26, 2007 by GU22

[erikr_]

lucky for the British citizens they have the same rights in the other European countries as other European citizins even though they are not in Schengen

Just to be a pedant, under EU and EEA treaty law, the right to freedom of movement is given to European citzens. This is a basic freedom overriding national legislation. This right is nothing to do with the Schengen agreement. The UK and RoI are governed by the EU and EEA treaties on this matter, but have not fully signed up to the whole Schengen agreement, they are both only signatories of the Council Decision (covering police co-operation) but not the Council Regulations (covering asylum, visas and border controls).

The perversity in this, as you said, is that every state which has signed these EU and/or EEA (but not Schengen) treaties must, with certain exceptions, issue a family permit to the non European spouse of the citizen of another European state free of charge. However they do not have to do so to the spouse of one of their own citizens; they can refuse such applications and charge whatever fee they like.

You are absolutely right, that is why there was a behind the Schengen comment haha.

[ayalgueru]

Hello :

I married my GF in BKK late february and we are now back here in London together happily married !

Things were pretty quick and one after we presented all papers for family permit it only took the british embassy 3 working days to get her passport back with family permit on it. No interview required or any hasssle at all.

This is just a quick post to thank everyone for their very useful advise and their words.

---

Now a couple things which people may find useful ... particularly if your girlfriend is in thailand ( not my case since I was living with her here but may be useful ) while you are in farangland .

------------

if you are planning to get your marriage registered in the spanish embassy you need something called civil status certificate ( to confirm she is not married prior to the marriage ) , she needs to bring her house certificate and 2 witnesses , one of the I think it has to be a family member and the other a neighbour that is a house owner ( and bring his house certificate too ) . This can only to be done in her local amphur. This is important because it is not required by the british embassy at all. Not sure if it is a requirement for the amphur marriage but they ask for it sometimes and you definitely need it for registration at the spanish embassy later.

------------

when applying for EEA family permit together with all documents ( marriage certificate and all that .. ) we presented a very neat folder ( she prepared that ) with evidence of our relationship , one part with e-mails segregated by month , another with pictures ( us together in thailand and in europe ) and another one with other letters prove that we have been living together ( bills , council tax and that ) .. not sure how important this was for a speedy resolution but i guessed it did not harm.

------------

Make sure you get a proper spanish translator and look for it in advance , mine was rubbish so some of the documents translated into spanish were rejected by the spanish embassy the first time and I needed to get them re-translated.

--------------

Ok once again ! Thanks to all !

[Alf Witt]

The perversity in this, as you said, is that every state which has signed these EU and/or EEA (but not Schengen) treaties must, with certain exceptions, issue a family permit to the non European spouse of the citizen of another European state free of charge. However they do not have to do so to the spouse of one of their own citizens; they can refuse such applications and charge whatever fee they like.

OK, that's simple enough to understand, albeit perverse.

So, for example, a UK national can reside in (for example) Spain with his Thai Wife. He also has freedom of movement throughout the EC.

What happens if he wants to travel with his family whilst they are resident in Spain?

i) he wants to visit another EC country (for example, Germany) with his Thai wife. Does she have to apply for a visa to visit Germany and if so where? The German embassy in Spain? Would that be a Schengen visa?

ii) he wants to visit his family in Woking, Surrey (in the UK) with his Thai wife. Does she have to apply for a visa? Presumably to the British Embassy in Spain?

iii) In my experience there are usually no passport controls on the borders between European countries anyway and sometimes even when travelling by air from one EC country to another. So there is no-one to inspect the visa anyway.