Thai Xenophobia

[Neeranam]

QUOTE(mdeland @ 2007-01-24 21:57:02)

and "female genitalia - jiim"

I thought that meant 'smile' .... or am I 90 degrees and about one meter out?

that's yiim

[beammeup]

This thread has it all: the good, the bad and the ugly.

I tended to veer to the not xenophobic side yesterday. Then I started thinking about it.

I do know that teachers in our local school tell the kids that farang are dirty and not as good as Thais.

I have received terrible or rude service here, but usually put it down to belligerent foreigners who came before me.

When all is going well, my villagers are kind and helpful, but one mishap (like my dog biting a Thai man who came into my yard and then gave me a Bt3,000 bill for rabies shots), and they all run and hide. Only one told me not to make a fuss and just pay because the man's family was big in the village.

But, the villagers all took turns staying with a farang friend hospitalised after a bike accident.

I try to be respectful and quiet, visit people in hospital, attend funerals, etc. But am I really accepted? In the end, I believe not.

I guess the best test would be whether your Thai neighbours/friends would come to your rescue if you were accused of a major crime. Would they shun you even if the charges were false? But, would friends help you if you were back home?

Far Eastern Economic Review did a survey on racism/xenophobia in Asia several years ago. (Help me out here, FEER readers.) Questions included would you allow your daughter/son to marry a foreigner? Would you work for a foreign company? Thailand was definitely ranked in the top three if not the most xenophobic nation. (Tried to research this, but could not find the story.)

Xenophobic or not, I love Thai people. Those who moved to a different village will stop in to see me even a year later if they are within 10km of my home. Neighbours act as silent security, message carriers, and surprise food suppliers. Those who know my face always call out my name and ask how I am when I pass by. A few of those a day and I'm a happy camper.

I am sure we could all be accused of being Xenophobic by what we say sometimes including Jet Gorgon and his xenophobia towards Canada. All these generalizations are pretty Illogical. Some Thais are Xenaphobic and some aren't. They are raised and educated differently. Who cares? I am here as a guest. I don't want to force them to accept our (your) standards. Maybe thats why they appear so Xenaphobic because you walk in here and expect them to behave your way. Are you not aware of the prime directive?. Do not interfere. Live and let live. Stop trying to Colonize this country. Perhaps its too late.

I think you misconstrued my comments, Beamer. Please reread my post, especially the last paragraph. I am a firm supporter of live and let live. Colonise? Prime directive? What are you going on about?

I was only directing the bit about Canada towards you the rest was directed at the rest of them like Col whats his face!! The people who expect the world around them to change to suit them, rather then changing to suit the environment.

[beammeup]

If Thailand was xenophobic I don't think that you would be able detect it if your experience was limited to the usual "tourist bubble" experience, i.e. Hotels, bars, people within the tourism sector, "touristy areas" etc etc.

You are far more likely to witness xenophobia during "everyday tasks" such as opening a bank account, grocery shopping, buying/renting accomodation, the daily commute, "Soi life" etc. etc.

This side of the culture can only be experienced if you are living in a country full time.

Could this stark difference of personal experience be the stumbling block in this arguement?

I think you are mistaking Xenophobia of you because you are a foreigner with Xenophobia with you because you dont speek their language. As soon as they can see that I can speek their language. I find they are quite happy to deal with me.

[Ijustwannateach]

It's also not just a Thai-falang issue. It has long been Thai vs. anyone not Thai (long before any falangs were on the scene).

What about that Greek-farang dude (Constantine Phaulkon, I believe) who worked his way up into high Siam-Thai government (Foreign Minister under King Narai) during the days of Ayuthaya a few hundred years back (1664)?

What was with that? Xenophobia-gone-awry? What a shame!

Well you might also mention the fact that the British even had courts of law here in the early 1900s.

Here is a news story from The Bangkok Times December 1900.

A couple of Indian dairymen were summoned to the British Counselor Court today for allowing their cattle to stray on the paddy fields at Sala Daeng. Defendants were ordered to pay Tiscals 20, the amount of damage.

Bangkok Times December 1900

One could argue that Phaulkon was "hired" because he wasn't one of the family or someone else with any chance of becoming a serious rival. From what I've studied of the period, the Ayuthaya dynasty were so paranoid that they would be assassinated by each other that they would hire foreign mercenaries as bodyguards (King Narai had Japanese samurai employees). Usually their expectations were realised- when King Narai passed away, his relatives had a small war over the succession (they were gearing up for it even as he was dying). One of the first items of business was the execution of Phaulkon, and the ostracisation of his wife and family. You can see the burnt ruins of his house in Ayuthaya even today.

I mention this as a matter of historical record and would strongly recommend that we do not extrapolate this into any kind of contemporary speculation- a word to the wise.

"Steven"

[rogerinthai]

Let's put it this way, I have learnt to do the Thai thing and just switch my ears off and take the view of ignoring it and as such it can't be there... but that doesn't mean it isn't of course, just that ignorance is bliss and my life is a happier place when I am pretending to not listen or to engaging my brain to it all.

Ditto that 100%.

[rogerinthai]

Why is it ,that those who jump to protect Thailand and Thais, no matter what, are usually:

- Those who only know the nightlife / tourist scene.

- Never lived here on a permanent basis.

- Never had a business in Thailand, or studied the Thai laws.

- Do not regularly read Thai newspapers or listen to the Thai media.

- Do not understand the language or the culture well enough to notice subtleties.

???

The answer is simple - they fill the function Thais want them to fill, and therefore do not encounter much Xenophobia - they are merely PAYERS, uninformed TOURISTS = "Come, Spend, Leave!".

Edited January 25, 2007 by Jai Dee
Reference to another poster deleted - flame

[beammeup]

...

Why is it ,that those who jump to protect Thailand and Thais, no matter what, are usually:

- Those who only know the nightlife / tourist scene.

- Never lived here on a permanent basis.

- Never had a business in Thailand, or studied the Thai laws.

- Do not regularly read Thai newspapers or listen to the Thai media.

- Do not understand the language or the culture well enough to notice subtleties.

???

The answer is simple - they fill the function Thais want them to fill, and therefore do not encounter much Xenophobia - they are merely PAYERS, uninformed TOURISTS = "Come, Spend, Leave!".

I think there are quite a few who live here read the papers bla bla... who will step in to protect the Thais against Xenophobic falangs.

[robint]

quote

If a stranger titles me "mun" while talking about me in my presence this is highly offensive, and meant to be that way. Try that with a Thai stranger, and see what the response is...

unquote

wait till they start calling you "mung" which is a really offensive lao 4 letter word for jim

as in mung bah

wonderful language lao, it says all the things you cant say directly in Thai

BTW if you want a lao primer, a good source are the Charlie chaplin VCDs where the dubbed voice over is in colloqial lao with english subtitle, great wya to learn.

[katana]

i must be xenophobic, as if i had my way foreigner's would not be able to own land in australia.

we have the rediculous situation where any foreigner with enough money can walk in and buy land.

the japanese own most of queensland...

I wonder if the Aborigines feel the same about the white settlers...

Edited January 24, 2007 by katana

[Jai Dee]

Settle down people... keep the personal attacks out of this thread please.

[Thaddeus]

QUOTE(mdeland @ 2007-01-24 21:57:02)

and "female genitalia - jiim"

I thought that meant 'smile' .... or am I 90 degrees and about one meter out?

that's yiim

Ah.... that explains some of the expressions in my photo collection.

And goes a long way to showing that unless you have an incredibly good command of the language coupled with a very good understanding of social interaction that isn't word based, you really can't tell if they are xenophobic, you are paranoid or you are just totally mistaken.

Very few contributors to this thread are qualified enough to actually have a valid opinion on this subject, myself included.

[davidjtayler]

QUOTE(mdeland @ 2007-01-24 21:57:02)

and "female genitalia - jiim"

I thought that meant 'smile' .... or am I 90 degrees and about one meter out?

that's yiim

Ah.... that explains some of the expressions in my photo collection.

And goes a long way to showing that unless you have an incredibly good command of the language coupled with a very good understanding of social interaction that isn't word based, you really can't tell if they are xenophobic, you are paranoid or you are just totally mistaken.

Very few contributors to this thread are qualified enough to actually have a valid opinion on this subject, myself included.

We are all qualified to have a valid opinion Thad ... doesn't mean it counts for <deleted> tho

Myself included

[Scott]

I work in a school in an administrative position (of sorts). Xenophobia or something like it is stressed and reinforced in the schools. In the younger grades, children who misbehaved were told they were acting like "Lao people." Racial slurs are quite common. When I would ask a teacher not to do that--I was told that everybody knows how Lao (and Issan) people are.

Indians fare even worse. I could go on and on, some of the way it is transmitted is straightforward and some of it is very subtle. But it goes on at all levels.

Personally, I try not to let it bother me when it happens to me. I ignore it as much as possible because I can't control it. I have neighbors who are so nice and kind it's unbelievable--and others who say they can't stand living next to a farang etc. They even throw trash in the driveway.

Most people here are nice, but they are still xenophobic. The saving grace in Thailand is the avoidance of conflict and nonconfrontational attitudes which means that what we see in some Western countries is less likely to go on here.

The bottom line to remember is you can't make people stop being xenophobic. You can however, make it more difficult to dislike you by being kind and courteous, even in when you face xenophobia.

[terry57]

i must be xenophobic, as if i had my way foreigner's would not be able to own land in australia.

we have the rediculous situation where any foreigner with enough money can walk in and buy land.

the japanese own most of queensland...

I wonder if the Aborigines feel the same about the white settlers...

yes i think your right there mate as those pommy blighters really give our aboriginals a shocking time.

i just love it when someone throws that up as it was the pommy royalty who sent all the criminals out here and us true blue aussie's are well in the clear on that front.

but we got a few xenophobic auusies as well so fair play i say.

and ill give you the big tip mate,

unless you live full time in aussie you will never know our aboriginals problems so i suggest you just dont go there.

thank you very much and on that note back to the thai thread.

[Jai Dee]

Some off-topic comments and personal attacks (flames) have been deleted from this thread.

Final Warning

From the Forum Rules:

No flaming of fellow members!

Excessive, aggressive posts against other members, moderators and admin; or flaming will not be tolerated. 'Flaming' is best defined as posting or responding to a message in a way clearly intended to incite useless arguments, rants, and/or for launching personal attacks, insulting, being hateful, useless criticism, name calling, swearing and other bad behavior or comments meant to incite anger.

[rogerinthai]

I think there are quite a few who live here read the papers bla bla... who will step in to protect the Thais against Xenophobic falangs.

"Protect Thais against Xenophobic falangs"? But they don't need such protection do thay? Maybe protect them agaist the farang immigration officials here (therea aren't) that don't issues visas to Thais (but they don't need them anyway) or protect them against farang Labour department officials (there aren't any) that don't issue work permits to Thais (they don't need them as well)? Or maybe protect Thais against Land office farang officials that don't let them own land? Or maybe protect Thais against discriminative pricing policies? etc etc.

Thailand is clearly Xenophobic - foreigners are tolerated only if they fit the pattern I mentioned (spend as much money here as possible [pushing "quality tourism"]- but don't expect any rights in return, and better leave quickly). If foreigners want more than that - to live here on the long term, to own a buisness or land (even a tiny plot in Issarn), then they will feel the Thai Xenophobia very well, since it is embedded in the Thais laws and regulations.

Edited January 25, 2007 by rogerinthai

[kmart]

I work in a school in an administrative position (of sorts). Xenophobia or something like it is stressed and reinforced in the schools. In the younger grades, children who misbehaved were told they were acting like "Lao people." Racial slurs are quite common. When I would ask a teacher not to do that--I was told that everybody knows how Lao (and Issan) people are.

Indians fare even worse. I could go on and on, some of the way it is transmitted is straightforward and some of it is very subtle. But it goes on at all levels.

Personally, I try not to let it bother me when it happens to me. I ignore it as much as possible because I can't control it. I have neighbors who are so nice and kind it's unbelievable--and others who say they can't stand living next to a farang etc. They even throw trash in the driveway.

Most people here are nice, but they are still xenophobic. The saving grace in Thailand is the avoidance of conflict and nonconfrontational attitudes which means that what we see in some Western countries is less likely to go on here.

The bottom line to remember is you can't make people stop being xenophobic. You can however, make it more difficult to dislike you by being kind and courteous, even in when you face xenophobia.

I think this sums it up. Its only really Westerners who are educated (and have the time) to be politically correct and to think about racial sensitivity and "fairness" in their society.

Much of Asia (probably most of it) is still governed by feudalistic mindsets and actively promotes ultra nationalism and preaches cultural superiority to its children. Its inherent in the people here whether you like it or not. You just have to deal with it, and try to be nice in return.

[jumnien]

Kmart - "Much of Asia (probably most of it) is still governed by feudalistic mindsets and actively promotes ultra nationalism and preaches cultural superiority to its children. Its inherent in the people here whether you like it or not. You just have to deal with it, and try to be nice in return. "

Wise post. The United States also preaches cultural superiority to its children, and like Thailand, if you are nice to people you will usually be treated nicely in return.

Most of us, including myself, missed the last part of the original post. We jumped to the controversial segment of whether fear of foreigners exists. We missed the "Is it likely?" part. As we present ourselves in an overwhelmingly friendly way to Thai people we are met with kindness and a spirit of happiness. At least, that is my experience. As I've said before, I'm a relative newbie to these parts of the world having only lived in Thailand since 1997. Others have far more experience than I. On the contrary, I've seen people present themselves in a very self-centered, angry or fearful or greedy way, and their attitude often manifests a different reaction on the part of local people.

[wolfmanjack]

The fact is that many Thais do stereotype westerners and the very fact that a single term can be used to label all of us is indicative of a basic ignorance of our respective cultures.

The term "farang" is used extensively in Thailand... and is not usually meant in a derogatory way, and certainly not representative of ignorance. There are a lot of subjects already posted on ThaiVisa on this very issue.

I have been trying to read ALL of the posts before I commented but I have to comment on this one. I am not so sure about the term FALANG not being derogatory in all areas of Thailand. My children go to a thai school here in chiang mai. Not an International School or a wannabe thai english school. They go to a local 300 baht a month school. My son came home and was very angry that someone at his school called me a falang. It took me quite a while to convince him that it did not matter what the other kids said or what their parents say and that being a falang is not a bad thing. Obviously the children at his school do not think that being a falang is ok if they use it to taunt my children.

In my wife's village they used to use the inage of a falang as a boogey man. The first time i went to the village many children came to the house to look at me. They sat with only 1 cheek on the chair ready to bolt at a moments notice. Every time I moved they would jump up and run. I asked my wife why they ran from me even when I adjusted to position i was sitting in. She explained to me that their parents tell the children that if they are not good then the falang will come and eat them. After 8 years all of the children are used to me and Know that I will not eat them but they still act wary of any other falang that shows up.

I do not know if any of this classifies as xenophobia or is just plain racism.

As far as another poster asking if we have thai friends that will help us if we are in trouble. I have a few that have known me a long time and call me brother. We help each other out a lot and they have loaned me money several times. We call each other just to talk about a problem we have even when we know we can not help. Even with all of the other falangs I associate with here I know one thai couple that I could count on more than all of the falangs I know. In the USA I had only 2 friends that i could count on the same way.

[wolfmanjack]

and its not falang, its " farang " so get your facts right.

you like that come back miss jet?

that was a little ripper aye.

farang in bkk falang in cm.

ron in bakk lon in cm etc etc

most words that are pronounced with an r in bkk is prounced with an L in cm.

Ron Lon

ARoi ALoi

Tau Rai Tau Lai

[Jet Gorgon]

and its not falang, its " farang " so get your facts right.

you like that come back miss jet?

that was a little ripper aye.

Very nice, Wolfman. Good to hear stories like that. You are lucky and I am jealous!

[wolfmanjack]

Hundreds of posts ago several posters remarked how they were insulted when Thais used "mun" or pronouns for animal when referring to farangs. One shouldn't take this so personally or hysterically. Thais refer to their own children as "little rat -noo", "male genitalia - haam", bird - nok, and "female genitalia - jiim" amongst many others. I don't think you would generalize that Thai people are particularly hateful toward their children, they just use words differently than secretaries from Manchester or plumbers from Bristol. No reason to start growling and barking back.

God bless you and good night!

Most of the people give their children unpleasant nicknames so the "PEE" can not find their children to do them harm. Using the word "mon" in thailand would be worse than going to harlem in the USA and using the "nigger". It is ok for the blacks to use it on each even if they do not know each other. If a white person went there and use it they would be killed. "Mon" used on another thai that one does not know would be taken very unkindly and is acceptable only for those very close to each other.

[dgoz]

No flaming of fellow members!

Excessive, aggressive posts against other members, moderators and admin; or flaming will not be tolerated. 'Flaming' is best defined as posting or responding to a message in a way clearly intended to incite useless arguments, rants, and/or for launching personal attacks, insulting, being hateful, useless criticism, name calling, swearing and other bad behavior or comments meant to incite anger.

I thought that was what we were supposed to do.

I'm lost.

[sutnyod]

Guess: who is more likely to be xenophobic - Vithoon, the farmer from Yasothorn, or Vithoon, the former farmer from Yasothorn and now taxi driver in Bangkok?

And why would that be so?

[TAWP]

You got the answer?

[girlx]

Using the word "mon" in thailand would be worse than going to harlem in the USA and using the "nigger". It is ok for the blacks to use it on each even if they do not know each other. If a white person went there and use it they would be killed. "Mon" used on another thai that one does not know would be taken very unkindly and is acceptable only for those very close to each other.

what is the exact wording? not 'mun farang' i'd guess since that is a potato. i want to listen out for this.

[sbk]

Using the word "mon" in thailand would be worse than going to harlem in the USA and using the "nigger". It is ok for the blacks to use it on each even if they do not know each other. If a white person went there and use it they would be killed. "Mon" used on another thai that one does not know would be taken very unkindly and is acceptable only for those very close to each other.

what is the exact wording? not 'mun farang' i'd guess since that is a potato. i want to listen out for this.

Mon is a classifier I believe. So it would come after the word farang, or be used in place of the word farang.

[steveromagnino]

Using the word "mon" in thailand would be worse than going to harlem in the USA and using the "nigger". It is ok for the blacks to use it on each even if they do not know each other. If a white person went there and use it they would be killed. "Mon" used on another thai that one does not know would be taken very unkindly and is acceptable only for those very close to each other.

what is the exact wording? not 'mun farang' i'd guess since that is a potato. i want to listen out for this.

most of the people who claim to have heard it probably know F&*k all about the language; Neraram being an exception :-)

Mun i used in the place of kao

Such as a tuk tuk driver or songtaew driver might say....

that guy over there, he wants to go to the bus station.

Phoochai kon nun, kao yahk bpai satanee rot tour.

and about a farang, alledgedly he might say

Farang kon nun, mun yahk pai satanee rot tour (mun = like an it wants to go to the bus station)

or

farang dtua nun, mun yahk pai satanee rot tour (I have yet to hear this one, but according to someone in the thread earlier, they apparently heard the classifier for animal, so this must have been what they heard, cannot see anyone ever saying it, but who am I to say, I am not god :-)

or

farang ngoh. Mun ja bpai satanee rot tour (a clear insult)

or

farang look neung. Mun yahk pai satanee rot tour (ok, this one is just for fun, but actually is quite funny, as farang is also a fruit, so it is funny in that farang the fruit wants to go to the bus station, I think maybe you have to be slightly Thai to find this funny)

However....just because you hear mun means little. In Isaan, it is common to use the word mun about men AFAIK, and my own family from there refer to me, my uncle, their sons and other men as mun frequently. And in Central Thailand ai as in ai-sut, ai-kwai etc is an insult, and yet ai in Isaan is not, it can be a term on endearment (and also an insult) as in Ai-Steve :-)

Note. my name is not Steve. Just for example.

My own opinion is the worst thing to do is speak a little Thai, and then you'll start hearing MANY alledged insults. Better to simply not care; I would go mad if I took offense at every insult I got handed, simply I couldn't care less what most people say about me, as their opinion counts for s&*t; they are mostly idiots and morons. Or they really know me, and therefore what they are saying is probably true :_)))

[Mid]

hey steveromagnino ,

i for one value your input here ,

thanxs mate

mid

[Boo]

In Isaan, it is common to use the word mun about men AFAIK, and my own family from there refer to me, my uncle, their sons and other men as mun frequently.

that is exactly as my husband explained it to me. Not rude from someone close but not to be used for strangers or casual aquaintances