Investigations into Land Ownership and Property Valuation

[JordanL]

I understand that my wife's late father has land under his name which was never officially bequeathed to her mother (who passed away 2 years later) nor she and her sister after his death.

My wife has been in contact with her paternal aunt who is apparently a joint owner of this land to request for her rightful share of the inheritance. Recently, my wife's aunt has agreed to purchase my wife's rightful share of the land and offered a price based on what she said was the market value of the land.

 

My wife's aunt has always seemed to be not transparent about the whole affair and has been dodging my wife's attempts to request for her inheritance for many years now. My wife has never seen the title deed, never known the amount of land that her father held, nor know the valuation of this land. I have reason to suspect that her father may have left a much larger inheritance than what her aunt has claimed.

 

It is difficult for us to do much as we are not living in Thailand, and her sister does not know how to navigate through this issue, therefore requiring legal advice.

 

We would like to find out the following:

- Is it possible to find out how much land did her father own before he passed away? I have on hand his death certificate
- Is it possible to get a high-level estimation of the property value through the Land Registrar without then need to hire a valuer?
- If it turns out that her father's property and/or value is more than what was claimed by her aunt, what legal recourse can we seek if she refuses to give my wife back what is rightfully hers?
- Can we engage a lawyer to sue her for the property, as well as damages including legal costs?
- Can we do all these without my wife having to step foot into Thailand?
- What are the estimated costs for each of my questions above?

 

Appreciate your kind advice, please. Thank you.

[JordanL]

I would also like to add that we are considering other possibilities that the land could have been sold after her father's death without my wife's knowledge and through under table and illegal means. My wife's aunt has specifically told her there was no need to return to her father's hometown to sign any documents nor do anything in order to receive the money from her father's share of the land which seems very suspicious.

[flyswat]

My Thai wife tells me....  your wife needs to go to the village where the land is located , pay respect to the head of the village, and speak to the older locals re the land ownership.The land cannot be owned by a non Thai citizen. Her understanding is that if a Thai rural land owner dies without a will, his or her land titles automatically pass to his or her children. There is an important proviso..... any rural land that has not been worked or obviously utilized by the owner for 10 years can be taken over after a 12 month advertised period (by the smartest family member or local)!   We have a similar family situation with my wife's cunning older sister at present.It is also quite likely there may be no official land title for his land despite her father having lived there and worked there for a lifetime, and inherited the land from his parents. Rural Thailand is presently going through a period of government surveys' and formal title is being granted to occupiers and persons currently farming untitled  land' so it is a "bag of worms" with the most cunning unfortunately gaining land titles they are often not entitled to. Good Luck!

[LukKrueng]

Every district has a land department office where copies of title deeds of land in that district are kept. As far as I know they can't look for land ownership by name of owner, but only by the title deed details, therefore I think you must find copies of title deeds or at least some lists her father might have kept.

As for land appraisal, the land department's official valuation has nothing to do with real market value. It is being updated periodically, like every 5 years or so, and doesn't take into account what's on the land (market price for land with mature tree plantation would be higher than that of vacant plot, having electricity increases the market value etc - all of which are not considered by the land department).

The best way to get a market price value is by contracting a land dealer in the area and ask for prices of similar plots on the vicinity of yours or even ask the dealer to estimate the value of your land. Another option is to get official valuation from a bank as of you plan to ask for a loan using the land as a guarantee

[mike324]

3 minutes ago, flyswat said:

My Thai wife tells me....  your wife needs to go to the village where the land is located , pay respect to the head of the village, and speak to the older locals re the land ownership.The land cannot be owned by a non Thai citizen. Her understanding is that if a Thai rural land owner dies without a will, his or her land titles automatically pass to his or her children. There is an important proviso..... any rural land that has not been worked or obviously utilized by the owner for 10 years can be taken over after a 12 month advertised period (by the smartest family member or local)!   We have a similar family situation with my wife's cunning older sister at present.It is also quite likely there may be no official land title for his land despite her father having lived there and worked there for a lifetime, and inherited the land from his parents. Rural Thailand is presently going through a period of government surveys' and formal title is being granted to occupiers and persons currently farming untitled  land' so it is a "bag of worms" with the most cunning unfortunately gaining land titles they are often not entitled to. Good Luck!

Great advice.

 

To check valuation, check how much people are selling around the area, that would be your best estimation of market price. Land valuation at land department are generally a lot lower. Or simply ask the village head, most will know who sold what for what price also.

 

If the land is sold illegally, your wife will have to sue or settle outside if she does not want to go through the courts.

[munchlet]

Your wife needs to come back to her village. This cannot be done remotely. If you want your share in the land you have to show an interest in it. The advice about seeing the village elders is important, though she must make sure that the village elders have not been suborned by the Aunty. The most interesting question I would ask is why is the land jointly owned by the dead father and his sister? There were nearly always more than two siblings in Thai families 50 or 60 years ago. The answer to this will give you a hint as to whether she is bullshitting or not. If there were more than two siblings, why did the land only go to the aunt and the dead father.

 

Valuation should not be done by land office. Ay agent will do it for free, or just ask around the village and/or call up the sellers of other land in the area and ask the price. If you sue, you probably have to be here, the lawyers can be expensive and if the land is not worth much, and in the villages up country it is not, the question becomes it it worth the hassle?

 

Good Luck. 

[khunPer]

19 hours ago, JordanL said:

We would like to find out the following:

- Is it possible to find out how much land did her father own before he passed away? I have on hand his death certificate
- Is it possible to get a high-level estimation of the property value through the Land Registrar without then need to hire a valuer?
- If it turns out that her father's property and/or value is more than what was claimed by her aunt, what legal recourse can we seek if she refuses to give my wife back what is rightfully hers?
- Can we engage a lawyer to sue her for the property, as well as damages including legal costs?
- Can we do all these without my wife having to step foot into Thailand?
- What are the estimated costs for each of my questions above?

 

Appreciate your kind advice, please. Thank you.

Agree with #flyswat in post #3.

 

The Land Office's appreciated values may not mirror the actual market values in your area; best source might be Head-of-Village, as often land trading agreements are signed with him as witness. You'll need to know what similar nearby land has been traded for, to my knowledge there's not an official valuer. Land price also depend on the title deed, if it's upgraded to Chanote it's worth more; however some land can originate from government farmland or forrest, and therefore not be allowed subdivided, even between heirs, which sometimes results in one heir buying the others out; or the land being sold, and the money divided between the heirs.

 

Legal recourse is to hire a lawyer, preferably a local that knows how things works in that area, and let the lawyer handle the case. Often just a letter from a lawyer can solve it, or at least open a negotiation, otherwise you'll need to bring the case for the Court.

 

Claims for damage and legal costs can be more difficult; especially legal costs. Often a lawyer will give you an estimate before bringing a case to the Court, and often also ask for prepayment. It's normal with a smaller prepaid amount for writing a letter, then a bigger amount when bringing the case to the Court. Try to avoid paying the full amount, before the case is closed, or some result shown like a date set for a court-meeting, as some lawyers seem to loose interest in speeding a case, when they have received payment.

 

Your wife can give power-of-attorney to a lawyer, or other trusted person. Often a standard from is used, which your wife probably can download, print, and just sign, and airmail (recommended) to the lawyer, or trusted person, together with signed photocopies of Thai-ID or passport, and any other needed documentation.

 

The cost estimation really depend of the law-firm or the lawyer. Talking from experience, an expensive lawyer can be very slow, especially when prepaid the full amount, and a reasonable priced local lawyer can be very efficient. However, there's always a risk in a Court case, so it's an evaluation of how much you wish to invest in a case, without a positive outcome; i.e. how much money you can afford to loose..?

 

 

 

 

[JordanL]

Thank you all for your valuable advice.

 

flyswat / munchlet:

1. My wife is a Thai citizen, therefore she is able to own land.
2. Speaking to the village head or elders is not an option. My wife bears a rather prominent surname well known in her district. Her aunt may have the village head on her side.
3. The land is split between 3 siblings if what was told to my wife is true.

 

LukKrueng

1. My wife has never seen the title deed and I believe that her aunt will not willingly show this to her. Neither do we wish to alarm her into preemptive action, which she would immediately suspect us of if we were to start asking for these details. The only option we have is to have someone search for a listing of property under his name.
2. Thanks and noted on the suggestion on the getting a land dealer to estimate the value of the land.

 

khunPer

1. Thanks for your detailed advice on legal options. Glad to hear that Power of Attorney is still an option in rural Thailand.
2. The only issue now is how I can find out exactly what her father owned before he died without a title deed. This needs to happen before anything else can proceed.

[LukKrueng]

14 hours ago, JordanL said:

Thank you all for your valuable advice.

 

LukKrueng

1. My wife has never seen the title deed and I believe that her aunt will not willingly show this to her. Neither do we wish to alarm her into preemptive action, which she would immediately suspect us of if we were to start asking for these details. The only option we have is to have someone search for a listing of property under his name.
2. Thanks and noted on the suggestion on the getting a land dealer to estimate the value of the land.

 

khunPer

1. Thanks for your detailed advice on legal options. Glad to hear that Power of Attorney is still an option in rural Thailand.
2. The only issue now is how I can find out exactly what her father owned before he died without a title deed. This needs to happen before anything else can proceed.

1. I have done a research of land change of ownership last year. I tried to get from the land department some information about land transactions in a specific area. According to the chief of that specific land department, such transactions are registered by dates and not by specific areas thus can't search for this information with such details as area, name of owners etc'. The only way you might get information about the plots you already know about, is by telling the land department the exact location of the plot. This way they might be able to get the correct file and title deed to show you who the actual owner is and if there are any issued with the land (such as a bank loan against it, long term lease etc').

2. I am not sure if forum rules allow to put a link to a commercial website here, but if you google "find land ownership listing in thailand" a link to a law office that advertise "Title search" will come up. You should try and ask them if they can somehow find properties owned by your father in law.

3. Seems you think the aunt is very well connected and somewhat influential. If so, she might find anyway that yo are doing this search...

[JordanL]

LukKrueng - thanks again for the extra info :)