‘Overwhelmed’ PACC detects graft at 5 more welfare centres

[Eric Loh]

37 minutes ago, halloween said:

You really can't see the difference between one government investigating and prosecuting the corrupt public servants, and another where the government ministers are instigating the corruption?

How dare you insinuate that the junta government ministers are instigating Prawit's alleged corruption. Are there more like the blimp, GT200 and other military procurement? 

[robblok]

9 minutes ago, JAG said:

Congratulations - two well earned prizes: Junta apologist of the year, and one of the finest "but, but, but Thaksin/Yingluck" posts ever seen on this forum!

Ah JAG.. who brought YL into it.. not me. You should be fair but you are not.  

 

I don't apologize for the junta just highlight the difference between the two cases. Do try to attack the facts as you can instead of ad hominem attacks. 

[mtls2005]

28 minutes ago, halloween said:

When referring to previous administrations, it must be handy to have selective memory loss.

 

Various/sundry Juntas, and Junta-appointed "governments" have ruled Thailand for the bulk of the time since 1932. 

 

"Elective memory loss" seems to have affected you as well?

 

But again, this topic is about current corruption scandal(s), of epic proportions, which seem to be being treated differently, for some unknown reason.

 

Maybe you're right. The Junta will jump on this corruption issue right quick, investigate it, follow the money, jail a few whistle-blowers and low-level bureaucrats and claim "success". And then order up a few dozen more Mercedes-Benzes no doubt.

 

 

 

 

[BuckBee]

1 hour ago, halloween said:

Here is the difference - the junta is doing something about stopping it.

Not doing much over the watch graft, the park graft etc etc . very selective at choosing areas of cleansing ...

[robblok]

6 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

 

Various/sundry Juntas, and Junta-appointed "governments" have ruled Thailand for the bulk of the time since 1932. 

 

"Elective memory loss" seems to have affected you as well?

 

But again, this topic is about current corruption scandal(s), of epic proportions, which seem to be being treated differently, for some unknown reason.

 

Maybe you're right. The Junta will jump on this corruption issue right quick, investigate it, follow the money, jail a few whistle-blowers and low-level bureaucrats and claim "success". And then order up a few dozen more Mercedes-Benzes no doubt.

Nice pre set mindset, whatever the junta does its wrong already.

 

I would say wait and see but it would be foolish to think they catch all of them.Just imagine the the amount of people involved. I hope that at least a few of the higher ups get jailed.

 

The junta is hypocrite for not going after their own but saying they are against corruption. But so was YL who chaired anti corruption events but did not even eradicate it in her own rice program. 

 

Anyway lets hope for as many arrests as possible its a lot better as letting everyone get of free. There was only 1 wishle blower and she has already been praised by the government not arrested. The troubles she had was at a far lower level.. it was her teacher that made her apologize not the junta. 

[Eric Loh]

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

The junta is hypocrite for not going after their own but saying they are against corruption. But so was YL who chaired anti corruption events but did not even eradicate it in her own rice program. 

How that really square up Rob. YL was banned from politics, charged, convicted and sentenced to 5 years and her assets confiscated while the junta keep getting free passes. How that got into the equation of fairness. 

[robblok]

4 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

How that really square up Rob. YL was banned from politics, charged, convicted and sentenced to 5 years and her assets confiscated while the junta keep getting free passes. How that got into the equation of fairness. 

Not fair at all but it does not make her any less a hypocrite then the junta (chairing anti corruption meetings but inactivity with one of the largest corruption scandals 36 billion that is far more as all these welfare centers combined). In a perfect world Prawit would have been investigated for corruption. I wan't him to be investigated for it. and suffer the same punishment YL has gotten or more. Though I find the punishment YL has gotten minor.. she escaped.. has almost no money in Thailand but helped cause 36 billion baht damages. 

[bluesofa]

11 minutes ago, robblok said:

{snipped}

There was only 1 wishle blower and she has already been praised by the government not arrested. The troubles she had was at a far lower level.. it was her teacher that made her apologize not the junta. 

Being cynical, I wonder if perhaps she was praised by the government as by that time the story had broken, and they had no option but to praise her to avoid more bad press?

(Not that I'd imagine the junta would give a fig about bad press.)

 

[robblok]

4 minutes ago, bluesofa said:

Being cynical, I wonder if perhaps she was praised by the government as by that time the story had broken, and they had no option but to praise her to avoid more bad press?

(Not that I'd imagine the junta would give a fig about bad press.)

 

So you contradicting yourself you want it both ways.

 

I think the junta does care about bad press (just not when they really don't want to do something) This is for them a good chance to show everyone they go after corruption. Its not touching any of them in anyway they can throw some people under the bus and look good.

 

I prefer a perfect world but applaud it if any of these corrupt criminals get punished (and i mean real punishment jail time a fine and having to pay back what they stole).

 

The alternative is not punishing anyone. 

[seajae]

1 hour ago, mtls2005 said:

 

Yes, I can see the "difference", that's sort of the issue I'm highlighting.

 

Corruption and neoptism and graft have been rife in the Junta from nearly day 1, and after four years their greed seems unrivaled by just about any past "administrations".

 

It took a whistle-blower (or two) to bring this latest massive corruption scandal to light. Of course, the first inclination was to blame the whistle-blower.

 

Why aren't the responsible Ministers monitoring what's going on? One could assume the worst, or that they are just negligent.

you do realize this was happening under yl as well and that they did absolutely nothing about it, nor did any govt for years before that. At least now we are seeing people being dragged out now all be it not all of the ones that should be, corruption/graft is still rife but the junta have done something about it even if its not what we were hoping for.  If yl/ptp had their way many of those involved in the corruption would have been let off in their attempt to bring thaksin back, no govt is even close to being clean of corruption but this one is doing a lot more than any previous one even if they are not all that clean themselves

[Eric Loh]

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

Not fair at all but it does not make her any less a hypocrite then the junta (chairing anti corruption meetings but inactivity with one of the largest corruption scandals 36 billion that is far more as all these welfare centers combined). In a perfect world Prawit would have been investigated for corruption. I wan't him to be investigated for it. and suffer the same punishment YL has gotten or more. Though I find the punishment YL has gotten minor.. she escaped.. has almost no money in Thailand but helped cause 36 billion baht damages. 

Here I differ with you and still hold the belief and lots of skepticism of the charges. To me political expediency was at work to the benefit of a certain group and the military. It occurred too many times in history to think this was an isolated event. 

[robblok]

1 minute ago, Eric Loh said:

Here I differ with you and still hold the belief and lots of skepticism of the charges. To me political expediency was at work to the benefit of a certain group and the military. It occurred too many times in history to think this was an isolated event. 

What i am stating are facts confirmed in a court of law. If you start to doubt these we can stop debating forever because it means you don't accept any facts. The fake G2G deals have been proven her inactivity has been proven I don't understand your point. She had the best lawyers money could buy and even they could not deny the fake G2G deals. I guess its too hard for you to accept that YL willingly did nothing while her highest ministers defrauded the country of 36 billion baht (proven too). 

[Ossy]

59 minutes ago, bluesofa said:

"glorified by idiots"

Ah, did you go to the same school of diplomacy as the Khon Kaen deputy governor?

'Nice one' . . . probably exactly what Fancy Pants will be saying to our KK bureaucrat . . . one of the same paranoid and volatile breed, it would appear.

[mtls2005]

24 minutes ago, seajae said:

you do realize this was happening under yl as well and that they did absolutely nothing about it, nor did any govt for years before that.

 

No, not without proof.

 

But you seem to be supporting my original concern: that Yingluck was treated differently, although not prosecuted for ministry embezzlement, than the current "leaders".

 

Your statement that, 

 

"...people being dragged out now all be it not all of the ones that should be, corruption/graft is still rife but the junta have done something about...".

 

needs some support.

 

 

 

 

 

[pookiki]

2 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

Some estimate that the embezzlement of these social funds has reached 85%!

 

At people complained about elected governments skimming a paltry 15%.

 

Really challenging to figure out why Yingluck was charged with Negligence and Malfeasance but the Junta hums along without being held responsible for massive corruption and graft on their watch?

 

Seems like there are two sets of "laws"?

 

 

 

 

But where does the 'buck' stop.  Yingluck was charged with malfeasance because she 'should have known' what was happening. The parallels in this 'populist' scheme gone awry and the rice pledging scheme are striking.  Who will ultimately be held responsible and what will be their punishment?

Edited March 20, 2018 by pookiki
grammar

[Eric Loh]

33 minutes ago, robblok said:

What i am stating are facts confirmed in a court of law. If you start to doubt these we can stop debating forever because it means you don't accept any facts. The fake G2G deals have been proven her inactivity has been proven I don't understand your point. She had the best lawyers money could buy and even they could not deny the fake G2G deals. I guess its too hard for you to accept that YL willingly did nothing while her highest ministers defrauded the country of 36 billion baht (proven too). 

That’s why I said your views are different from mine. The repeating coups to re-set politics to maintain dominance of a certain group was key to my skepticism. The influence of that power over investigating and court decision influence my thinking. The big gorilla in the room is the military amnesty and fatso immunity against charges of excessive high end watch collection. 

[robblok]

9 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

That’s why I said your views are different from mine. The repeating coups to re-set politics to maintain dominance of a certain group was key to my skepticism. The influence of that power over investigating and court decision influence my thinking. The big gorilla in the room is the military amnesty and fatso immunity against charges of excessive high end watch collection. 

Its not views.. court cases are facts.. Your trying to change the facts i just can't stand by and let you rewrite history in your lil red book.

 

YL was convicted it was a fair trial. Nobody ever proved the G2G deals were real. Boonsong admitted to signning them but said he had to do it for someone higher up (who is the highest Thaksin) he would not say that because if he did YL would be up for real corruption charges as in that case her link to Thaksin would make her even more guilty. That is why Boonsong is accepting his punishment. Now stop trying to rewrite history mate.  She is lucky this could not be proven or she would be in serious trouble.

Edited March 20, 2018 by robblok

[rebo]

2 hours ago, halloween said:

Next day send a BCC message to all welfare offices that investigators will be arriving at their office tomorrow. Send police to arrest anyone who doesn't show up for work.

Would be too harsh. Give them some days to withdraw their money from their maids', spouses', mia nois' accounts to fill the brown envelopes needed now ...

[Eric Loh]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

Its not views.. court cases are facts.. Your trying to change the facts i just can't stand by and let you rewrite history in your lil red book.

 

YL was convicted it was a fair trial. Nobody ever proved the G2G deals were real. Boonsong admitted to signning them but said he had to do it for someone higher up (who is the highest Thaksin) he would not say that because if he did YL would be up for real corruption charges as in that case her link to Thaksin would make her even more guilty. That is why Boonsong is accepting his punishment. Now stop trying to rewrite history mate.  She is lucky this could not be proven or she would be in serious trouble.

Seem you too like to change facts and put in a whole lot of assumption and throw in Thaksin for good measure. History is about repeating coups to rid challenges to the military status quo. 12 times and counting. Nothing to do with being lucky. All about cronies, allies and allegiance. Those latter group have charges going back decades and none see jail time. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 hours ago, jonclark said:

 

Shouldn't be surprised. Thailand is built on a social hierarchy - Those doing the thieving are the betters of those they are stealing from. And those being stolen from should be grateful for any crumbs which drop from the table. Even if the pie was meant for them! 

 

 

I'm always amazed when I see a regular routine repeated on Thai TV -- certain very wealthy and high level individuals going around out in the hinterlands and having big government ceremonies/shows to hand out packages of blankets and such to long queues of clearly very low-income people. And they're bowing and scraping as is the custom.

 

And yet, no one ever seems to ask the question, why does the country have such a large population of people who need to rely on government food and blanket handouts when another segment of the population is so obscenely rich, including many of those in government and those doing the handouts.

 

And the cycle of food and blanket handouts seems to continue in perpetuity, and never any discussion or efforts to change the circumstances that make those people reliant on government food and blanket handouts.

 

 

 

[robblok]

11 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Seem you too like to change facts and put in a whole lot of assumption and throw in Thaksin for good measure. History is about repeating coups to rid challenges to the military status quo. 12 times and counting. Nothing to do with being lucky. All about cronies, allies and allegiance. Those latter group have charges going back decades and none see jail time. 

I did not change any facts:

- fact there were fake G2G deals

- Fact Boonsong admitted to signing for them but on behest of someone more powerful but wont want to say who (as reported in Newspapers)

- Fact YL chaired the rice program and was told about fake G2G deals but did not take action 

She is convicted for that. I merely speculated that the person Boonsong was protecting was Thaksin wich would have made it worse.

 

So YL got the minimum punishment because they would not prove my speculation. I never said I disagreed with the verdict its a fair verdict they just could not prove more.

 

You on the other hand are acting like she is innocent without any proof.

So Eric in your opinion were there fake G2G deals yes or no ?

If NO why did the lawyers not prove this then.

If Yes why did YL not stop them after hearing about them in the media and being pointed to them by the opposition.

 

Tell me what facts i changed ?

[baboon]

18 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I'm always amazed when I see a regular routine repeated on Thai TV -- certain very wealthy and high level individuals going around out in the hinterlands and having big government ceremonies/shows to hand out packages of blankets and such to long queues of clearly very low-income people. And they're bowing and scraping as is the custom.

 

And yet, no one ever seems to ask the question, why does the country have such a large population of people who need to rely on government food and blanket handouts when another segment of the population is so obscenely rich, including many of those in government and those doing the handouts.

 

And the cycle of food and blanket handouts seems to continue in perpetuity, and never any discussion or efforts to change the circumstances that make those people reliant on government food and blanket handouts.

 

 

 

'When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.'

[Eric Loh]

19 minutes ago, robblok said:

I did not change any facts:

- fact there were fake G2G deals

- Fact Boonsong admitted to signing for them but on behest of someone more powerful but wont want to say who (as reported in Newspapers)

- Fact YL chaired the rice program and was told about fake G2G deals but did not take action 

She is convicted for that. I merely speculated that the person Boonsong was protecting was Thaksin wich would have made it worse.

 

So YL got the minimum punishment because they would not prove my speculation. I never said I disagreed with the verdict its a fair verdict they just could not prove more.

 

You on the other hand are acting like she is innocent without any proof.

So Eric in your opinion were there fake G2G deals yes or no ?

If NO why did the lawyers not prove this then.

If Yes why did YL not stop them after hearing about them in the media and being pointed to them by the opposition.

 

Tell me what facts i changed ?

The court has given the verdict and like it or not, all got to live with it. The case was investigated by NACC exposed for their political biasness and the trial was held by the military who disposed her. That's the fact.

[Samui Bodoh]

28 minutes ago, robblok said:

I did not change any facts:

- fact there were fake G2G deals

- Fact Boonsong admitted to signing for them but on behest of someone more powerful but wont want to say who (as reported in Newspapers)

- Fact YL chaired the rice program and was told about fake G2G deals but did not take action 

She is convicted for that. I merely speculated that the person Boonsong was protecting was Thaksin wich would have made it worse.

 

So YL got the minimum punishment because they would not prove my speculation. I never said I disagreed with the verdict its a fair verdict they just could not prove more.

 

You on the other hand are acting like she is innocent without any proof.

So Eric in your opinion were there fake G2G deals yes or no ?

If NO why did the lawyers not prove this then.

If Yes why did YL not stop them after hearing about them in the media and being pointed to them by the opposition.

 

Tell me what facts i changed ?

The facts at the "trial" were not relevant.

 

She was a former PM whose government was usurped by a military coup.

 

The military government/coup makers had ultimate power in Article 44 and had already used its power to remove judges.

 

Under these circumstances, there was no possibility of a fair trial occurring. There would be no possibility of demonstrating that the judges were not influenced by that (already used) power and thus were unable to give a fair "verdict" .

 

There was no possibility that Yingluck could have received a fair trial under a military government with Article 44 power, thus any trial she did face was flawed and not up to international standards of justice.

 

It was a sham. 

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Samui Bodoh
Lack of coffee

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, Samui Bodoh said:

The facts at the "trial" were not relevant.

 

She was a former PM whose government was usurped by a military coup.

 

The military government/coup makers had ultimate power in Article 44 and had already used its power to remove judges.

 

Under these circumstances, there was no possibility of a fair trial occurring. There would be no possibility of demonstrating that the judges were not influenced that (already used) power and thus were unable to give a fair "verdict" .

 

There was no possibility that Yingluck could have received a fair trial under a military government with Article 44 power, thus any trial she did face was flawed and not up to international standards of justice.

 

It was a sham. Period.

Bla bla bla bla 

Not even looking at the facts. Have fun debating but not with me.

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

The court has given the verdict and like it or not, all got to live with it. The case was investigated by NACC exposed for their political biasness and the trial was held by the military who disposed her. That's the fact.

Those facts are correct too.. but they don't change the facts presented at the trial if it was untrue those lawyers the best money could buy would have torn apart. They could not do so as the fake G2G deals were impossible to deny and so was YL her involvement in the rice program and her knowledge of the controversy about fake G2G deals.

 

Anyway its good you finally accept the facts for what they are. I might not like all verdicts (i feel there is more to it as i mentioned before but its unproven) but if we start to ignore verdicts them and make up stuff ourselves without backing them up we could as wel stop debating. 

 

I don't say you can never disagree with a verdict but then at least you have to disprove the facts in this case the fake G2G deals.

 

I really don't believe that HiSo's like YL and her ministers could be convicted of things they did not do given that they have access to the best lawyers available and its always quite hard to prove things in a court of law. 

 

Anyway we should return to the topic at hand.

 

I really hope they catch many people here and really punish them. I think in this case the junta (as they are not connected to these civil servants) can bring down harsh justice (or I hope so). I would of course prefer it if the junta also investigated Prawit but for now I think every bit of corruption that is punished is better then non at all. I wonder how wide they will cast their nets because it looks like almost everyone was in on it.

[Samui Bodoh]

11 minutes ago, robblok said:

Bla bla bla bla 

Not even looking at the facts. Have fun debating but not with me.

Hmm... 

 

Whose facts? Yours? Mine? My cat's facts? My neighbour's facts? A Soi Dog's facts? Eric Loh's facts?

 

Whose facts?

 

Facts which aren't fairly and judiciously adjudicated in a fair court of law aren't facts.

 

Have a nice day.

[robblok]

22 minutes ago, Samui Bodoh said:

Hmm... 

 

Whose facts? Yours? Mine? My cat's facts? My neighbour's facts? A Soi Dog's facts? Eric Loh's facts?

 

Whose facts?

 

Facts which aren't fairly and judiciously adjudicated in a fair court of law aren't facts.

 

Have a nice day.

The facts as presented in the court and not disproved by the best lawyers money could buy that defended YL and her minions. 

 

Its funny that people like you who obviously have been in Thailand for a while still don't know that courts never convict HiSo's unless the evidence is too strong. You can bet your money on it that YL her lawyers were the best and brightest and woud have made sure that if the evidence of the fake G2G deals was not strong enough to disqualify it. (bit hard to do in this case as the rice never left the warehouse) So they could not contest the G2G deals.. and YL as head of the rice program and has been informed by opposition and newspapers could not deny not knowing about it. She even said she would investigate.. and said nothing was found. So the evidence was just too strong.. all they could do was play the sympathy card. 

[kannot]

Overwhelmed ,no problem just find a bigger  rug!

[JAG]

2 hours ago, pookiki said:

But where does the 'buck' stop.  Yingluck was charged with malfeasance because she 'should have known' what was happening. The parallels in this 'populist' scheme gone awry and the rice pledging scheme are striking.  Who will ultimately be held responsible and what will be their punishment?

It will be buried.

One of the few "concentrations of support" for this regime are the bureaucratic uniformed ranks of the civil service. One can safely surmise that this sort of corruption is unlikely to be restricted to this one department.

The regime is not going to turn on its own.

There may well (probably will) be some unfortunates thrown to the wolves, but no real concrete action.

 

And as for the brave girl who blew the whistle - well I'd take up the career offered by 7/11, 'cos no organisation connected with the civil service is ever going to offer you a job.