Israeli forces kill 16 Palestinians in Gaza border protests - Gaza medics

[Thorgal]

Dexterm..can you remember the holocaust?
Dexterm..my late Beloved Father's Regiment had the very dubious honour of " liberating " Belson concentration camp.
When I was age to understand He told me of the horrible scenes he saw.
As I have stated before..the palestinian people have had countless amounts of money given to them.
Ever wondered where the money went..I suggest the thugs of Hamas

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Godwin’s Law at its best...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law



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[stevenl]

7 minutes ago, ezzra said:

There's no easy answer to that, from an Israeli security perspective, they can't allowed anymore Arab/Muslim country so close to their main cities whereby

Iran, IS, Hezbollah or Taliban will gain a foothold just few KM from

Tel Aviv and every other city in Israel, it's a very difficult situation to manage,

and no one is budging here, the Arabs want nothing less than to see israel

and all the Jews gone and so many other millions of people around the world

who hate Israel and Jews with a passion, the only solution here is to keep

the status quo where each keeps to their borders, but the palestinians

will not have a bar of it, they still cling to the dreams of returning to their

old homes at ANY COSTS OF LIVES and prolonged misery and poverty......

Thanks, but that was not the question.

 

What is the root cause of the problem please?

Edited March 31, 2018 by stevenl

[Thorgal]

That was not the question.
 
What is the root cause of the problem please?

Zionism...


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[Elfin]

13 minutes ago, Morch said:

And you've got an errant D stuck in the middle of the off topic BS.

Morch, the BDS movement(of which I support) is a means of non-violent protest against the apartheid policies of Israel.

Non-violent protest was what happened yesterday for Land Day.

The BDS movement has been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize-there may be a few pro-zionist TV members who may become apoplexic if this happens.

[dexterm]

38 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Dexterm..can you remember the holocaust?
Dexterm..my late Beloved Father's Regiment had the very dubious honour of " liberating " Belson concentration camp.
When I was age to understand He told me of the horrible scenes he saw.
As I have stated before..the palestinian people have had countless amounts of money given to them.
Ever wondered where the money went..I suggest the thugs of Hamas

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Why should indigenous Palestinians be made to pay the price for what European fascists did to Jews in the Holocaust?

[Morch]

40 minutes ago, JOC said:

And the "truth" is to be presented by a member of the tribe?

I used to live and work in Israel a long time ago...only 3 years.....and was very pro Israel

Today not so...not because I am a 'libertarian, left PC new age person'.....But because you have to be totally blind not to see, what is going on in the country, I used to love.

Israel has turned into an apartheid state....acting with impunity in all their doings...because a strong tribal lobby in the US....

Of course Hamas are not boy-scouts...but desperate times call for desperate measures....The people in Gaza are living in a virtual prison...with half of their towns and infrastructure bombed back to the stone age by the Israelis ......And on the West Bank new settlements are being build as I type...in breach of all international law...But again Israel gets away with everything with impunity...

 

The people of Gaza live under a blockade which is largely in place due to Hamas's actions and policies. It wasn't always like that, and it's not this way in the West Bank. Ignoring the context or refusing to attribute Hamas with any responsibility for how things are is ignorant or disingenuous. 

[JOC]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The recognition of Jews as refugees was limited to post-war time. There was no international recognition of refugee-by-inheritance status as is applied to the Palestinians. 

But it is still the argument being used by the settler movements.....

So you actually agree, that the settlements are illegal according to international law?

So why do Israel continue to build more and more settlements on occupied land?

Oh, silly me: Impunity...

[Morch]

37 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Hamas is one of the few organisations legitimately (by international law) resisting the illegal occupier and invader - the terrorist state of Israel, which has much better credentials for the epithet...1000s of innocent children and civilians murdered, imprisoned and tortured over the last 70 years.

You can see Israeli terrorist handiwork in the OP...16 killed in cold blood and 1000s injured. Not a scratch on the aggressors.

 

There is no universal acceptance of your view of Hamas. It is not seen as legitimate by all, and some of it actions are certainly not in accordance with international law. As for your ongoing hyperbole - getting killed is not the same as being murdered, you're just spewing them loaded terms all over the place, hoping they would stick and entrench your propaganda.

 

You also ignore some of the protestors killed being armed, and even carrying out attacks against soldiers. But for you, that's alright - of course. As for "not a scratch" - the faux blood letting balance while going on about morality and humanism. Oh well...

[ezzra]

11 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>The Palestinian do not have an undisputed right to return. That's another slogan. Israel is not  obligated to commit national suicide in order to satisfy posters' politics.
..Wrong! Palestinians do have that right. Which is exactly what they are demonstrating in the OP.

It's not a slogan; its international law.

 

"The right of return is a principle in international law which guarantees peoples right of voluntary return to or re-enter their country of origin or of citizenship. A right of return based on nationality, citizenship or ancestry may be enshrined in a country's constitution or law, and some countries deny a right of return in particular cases or in general.

The right is formulated in several modern treaties and conventions, most notably in the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the 1966 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the 1948 Fourth Geneva Convention. The Geneva Conventions, it has been argued, have passed into customary international law and that the right of return is binding on non-signatories to the conventions."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return

 

>>Israel is not obligated to commit national suicide
...that's Morchspeak for Israel reserves the right to maintain its minority apartheid religionist supremacy over the majority non Jewish Palestinian population.

The bottom line is this, Israel is not going anywhere, and if it means another

war or two so be it, the palestinians have millions of people to send to

be a cannon fodder this is their thing, while Arab Israelis are prosperous

and flourishing living in Israel, those in Gaza and other places, still live is

backward squalids mud huts herding goats and living on the world's

handouts.....

[dexterm]

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The people of Gaza live under a blockade which is largely in place due to Hamas's actions and policies. It wasn't always like that, and it's not this way in the West Bank. Ignoring the context or refusing to attribute Hamas with any responsibility for how things are is ignorant or disingenuous. 

Baloney. Israel practises apartheid against the majority indigenous population on a daily basis all over Palestine..within Israel, the illegally occupied territories, and the greater Palestinian diaspora. The OP murders are just a more blatant manifestation of its barbaric 50 year illegal occupation.

[Morch]

25 minutes ago, JOC said:

And that makes it kosher...?...

 

That wasn't the point made. I was pointing out that posters lump together different events and instances, which contributes to misrepresentation of the situation. 

[Thorgal]

Really, a Palestinian farmer picking parsley among 30,000 unruly mob?
did you really fall for that? well, it in fact it wasn't a farmer, it was a one
year old baby in a stroller holding flowers in her tiny hands and she
was shot by the merciless Israeli soldier, now that a better narrative isn't it?...

I would have expected at least some warning shots from the “most moral army of the world”.

Nowadays you can get less than 6 months of open prison in the IDF if you would have been convicted in unlawful killing of unarmed Palestinians.

IDF courts never made a difference in prison time for IDF soldiers committing crimes in function of the age of any Palestinian victim.


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[Morch]

23 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>The Palestinian do not have an undisputed right to return. That's another slogan. Israel is not  obligated to commit national suicide in order to satisfy posters' politics.
..Wrong! Palestinians do have that right. Which is exactly what they are demonstrating in the OP.

It's not a slogan; its international law.

 

"The right of return is a principle in international law which guarantees peoples right of voluntary return to or re-enter their country of origin or of citizenship. A right of return based on nationality, citizenship or ancestry may be enshrined in a country's constitution or law, and some countries deny a right of return in particular cases or in general.

The right is formulated in several modern treaties and conventions, most notably in the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the 1966 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the 1948 Fourth Geneva Convention. The Geneva Conventions, it has been argued, have passed into customary international law and that the right of return is binding on non-signatories to the conventions."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return

 

>>Israel is not obligated to commit national suicide
...that's Morchspeak for Israel reserves the right to maintain its minority apartheid religionist supremacy over the majority non Jewish Palestinian population.

 

You know very well (even if you refuse to acknowledge it) that the Palestinian claim is not uniformly and internationally recognized - at least not in the sense of an actual, physical return. The question of whether this "right" is transferable several generations down the line is another matter - and once more, not universally accepted.

 

For some opposing argument, read here (although some appear even in the link you put up, as usual):

 

Objectors' viewpoints

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return#Objectors'_viewpoints

 

Israel is not obligated to commit national suicide is just that. It is not obligated to become the new Palestinian state. It is not obligated to allow uncontrolled influx of Palestinian in. The rest of your standard issue waffle and lies is irrelevant.

 

Do note, that once more, all you offer are extreme interpretations and conclusions, presented in a vehement style - if you think that will lead to anything positive, that's totally up to you.

 

[Morch]

28 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Godwin’s Law at its best...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law



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But no issues with such when raised the other way. The usual hypocrisy.

[dexterm]

29 minutes ago, ezzra said:

The bottom line is this, Israel is not going anywhere, and if it means another

war or two so be it, the palestinians have millions of people to send to

be a cannon fodder this is their thing, while Arab Israelis are prosperous

and flourishing living in Israel, those in Gaza and other places, still live is

backward squalids mud huts herding goats and living on the world's

handouts.....

What a way for Israelis to live with such a siege mentality, when the internationally accepted simple formula for peace has been on the table for almost 2 decades ....shared Jerusalem, land swaps for 67 borders, recognition/compensation for right of return of Palestinians refugees. Living side by side in 2 viable states the next generations would not have to keep going to war.

 

The Palestinians aren't going anywhere either and they are the majority! No colonial project has ever succeeded where the minority lord it over the majority. The tide of world opinion via social media is turning against Israel. The global community is becoming aware of Israel's great hoax..they play the victim when they are in fact the aggressor.

 

Israel's violent reaction to the OP demonstration has created hundreds more Palestinian martyrs and 1000s more supporters. So much for Israeli intelligence.

Edited March 31, 2018 by dexterm

[Morch]

27 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Zionism...


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Drivel.

[Scott]

Troll post removed.  

[Morch]

27 minutes ago, Elfin said:

Morch, the BDS movement(of which I support) is a means of non-violent protest against the apartheid policies of Israel.

Non-violent protest was what happened yesterday for Land Day.

The BDS movement has been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize-there may be a few pro-zionist TV members who may become apoplexic if this happens.

 

This topic ain't about the BDS, though. Dully noted you try to push such advocacy on each related topic. Getting nominated for Noble Prizes means less then little. Even winning it doesn't amount to a whole lot these days.

 

The protests were hardly non-violent, unless we have a very different view of what non-violence means. As posted earlier, had the Palestinian been able to actually go for non-violence (in the sense most people understand the term), they'd be in a much better position - both with regard to the current situation, and their struggle as a whole. Unfortunately, this approach does not go along with their major narratives.

[Morch]

32 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Why should indigenous Palestinians be made to pay the price for what European fascists did to Jews in the Holocaust?

 

Why would you put this context-ignoring spin on things?

[Morch]

30 minutes ago, JOC said:

But it is still the argument being used by the settler movements.....

So you actually agree, that the settlements are illegal according to international law?

So why do Israel continue to build more and more settlements on occupied land?

Oh, silly me: Impunity...

 

Don't think that in all my many posts on these topics I've said anything which amounts to support of the Israeli illegal settlement effort. Accordingly, I'm not supportive of their goals, policies or views.

 

I am, however, able to differentiate between various groups and their respective ideologies within Israel, rather than see it as a whole or imply some sort of faux group-think.

 

You will notice, I think, that this topic is not about illegal settlements though - none of them left in the Gaza Strip.

 

It is possible to reject some Israeli policies, without denouncing everything and anything to do with it. Some posters get that, many choose not to. And for clarity sake - pretty much all of the above applies in reverse. Not all the Palestinians are terrorists, some would accept a compromise, but also, not everything that comes out of the Palestinian side is necessarily acceptable or right.

[stevenl]

52 minutes ago, ezzra said:

There's no easy answer to that, from an Israeli security perspective, they can't allowed anymore Arab/Muslim country so close to their main cities whereby

Iran, IS, Hezbollah or Taliban will gain a foothold just few KM from

Tel Aviv and every other city in Israel, it's a very difficult situation to manage,

and no one is budging here, the Arabs want nothing less than to see israel

and all the Jews gone and so many other millions of people around the world

who hate Israel and Jews with a passion, the only solution here is to keep

the status quo where each keeps to their borders, but the palestinians

will not have a bar of it, they still cling to the dreams of returning to their

old homes at ANY COSTS OF LIVES and prolonged misery and poverty......

So you don't want to or can not answer the question about the root cause.

[Morch]

34 minutes ago, ezzra said:

The bottom line is this, Israel is not going anywhere, and if it means another

war or two so be it, the palestinians have millions of people to send to

be a cannon fodder this is their thing, while Arab Israelis are prosperous

and flourishing living in Israel, those in Gaza and other places, still live is

backward squalids mud huts herding goats and living on the world's

handouts.....

 

I doubt this equation can be maintained forever, though. At some point, perhaps not too far away, there could be a mass rush at the border fence, or a deterioration of conditions within Gaza effecting Israel. That's not even taking into account the ongoing grind of Israel's dwindling international support.

 

 

[Morch]

37 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Baloney. Israel practises apartheid against the majority indigenous population on a daily basis all over Palestine..within Israel, the illegally occupied territories, and the greater Palestinian diaspora. The OP

murders are just a more blatant manifestation of its barbaric 50 year illegal occupation.

 

Only there is no such majority, a balance at worst. But I see you included the Palestinian diaspora in your count, so kinda shows you're not after a discussion but just the usual nonsense propaganda deluge. However...do go on about "baloney", while avoiding any concrete comment on the situation at hand.

 

Once more "murder" is your loaded term, not a fact. Same goes for the practice of blatantly ignoring anything not falling in line with your extreme views and presentation.

[Morch]

27 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

I would have expected at least some warning shots from the “most moral army of the world”.

Nowadays you can get less than 6 months of open prison in the IDF if you would have been convicted in unlawful killing of unarmed Palestinians.

IDF courts never made a difference in prison time for IDF soldiers committing crimes in function of the age of any Palestinian victim.


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And you somehow assume that there weren't no warning shots, because...? Well because that's what you're about - posting misleading information and half-truths. There are standing public warnings - both from Israeli and Palestinian sources, regarding consequences. Pretending otherwise is not going to change things.

 

 

 

[Thorgal]

 

And you somehow assume that there weren't no warning shots, because...? Well because that's what you're about - posting misleading information and half-truths. There are standing public warnings - both from Israeli and Palestinian sources, regarding consequences. Pretending otherwise is not going to change things.

 
 
 

...and after warning shots you should disperse the crowd with smoke granades and/or tear gas...

We are still far from the chapter to aim at non-vital human body parts in order to avoid 16 killings of protesters.

You must have forgotten that Netanyahu was present at #CharlieHebdo demonstration to promote right of speach, read expression, without use of any form of weaponry...


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[Morch]

29 minutes ago, dexterm said:

What a way for Israelis to live with such a siege mentality, when the internationally accepted simple formula for peace has been on the table for almost 2 decades ....shared Jerusalem, land swaps for 67 borders, recognition/compensation for right of return of Palestinians refugees. Living side by side in 2 viable states the next generations would not have to keep going to war.

 

The Palestinians aren't going anywhere either and they are the majority! No colonial project has ever succeeded where the minority lord it over the majority. The tide of world opinion via social media is turning against Israel. The global community is becoming aware of Israel's great hoax..they play the victim when they are in fact the aggressor.

 

Israel's violent reaction to the OP demonstration has created hundreds more Palestinian martyrs and 1000s more supporters. So much for Israeli intelligence.

 

You don't actually give a hoot about how Israelis live. Your whole body of posting is aimed at making their country irrelevant.

 

There is no "simple formula" other than in your propaganda posts. Even what you allude to (the Arab/Saudi Initiative) is in no way "simple". And, of course, this wasn't actually accepted by the Palestinians (I know - you ignore Hamas when its convenient, but all the same - such is reality). Obviously, nothing out of your regarding Palestinian choosing violence over and over again, Palestinian and Arab rejectionism - or basically anything which might paint your side of choice in a less than positive light. Let me reverse this for you - Palestinians can choose to continue living under occupations, under blockade, and keep a having their rights and dreams denied - or they could choose another path. See? Works both ways.

 

You keep going on and on about world opinion, somehow doesn't seem to work out quite as you claim. And you've been at it for years, on this forum alone. When this time-is-on-the-Palestinian-side angle is used up, you switch to warning of sinister calamities etc. Same old...

 

And yet, nothing concrete on topic - just the usual partisan political propaganda....

[Morch]

20 minutes ago, stevenl said:

So you don't want to or can not answer the question about the root cause.

 

So you don't want or cannot accept that there is no single "root cause".

 

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

...and after warning shots you should disperse the crowd with smoke granades and/or tear gas...

We are still far from the chapter to aim at non-vital human body parts in order to avoid 16 killings of protesters.

You must have forgotten that Netanyahu was present at #CharlieHebdo demonstration to promote right of speach, read expression, without use of any form of weaponry...


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Could you possibly work on posting more coherently? Your first comment (replied to) was with regard to the alleged farmer. Now you go on about protestors. Hard to tell if you're having issues focusing or intentionally trying to muddy the waters.

 

But to answer your nonsense post -

 

There were ample warning broadcast (in Arabic) both by Israeli and Palestinian sources prior to the protests. These were widely acknowledged and commented about.

 

You first seem to claim that there were no warning shots, now you go on about smoke grenades/tear gas. Well, both were used, as well as rubber bullets and live fire. That you assume or imply it was live fire without warning from the start and without warning is based on nothing much.

 

You must have forgotten that not everyone is willfully ignoring the protest not being peaceful, some participants being armed and some engaging in fire toward IDF soldiers. Bringing up the "right of free speech" "free expression" and all that - in the context of the Gaza Strip ruled by the Hamas is hypocritical, at best.And no, rushing the fence does not fall under free speech or expression.

[FitnessHealthTravel]

'Families brought their children to the encampments' - what were they thinking was going to happen?

[Thorgal]

 

Could you possibly work on posting more coherently? Your first comment (replied to) was with regard to the alleged farmer. Now you go on about protestors. Hard to tell if you're having issues focusing or intentionally trying to muddy the waters.

 

But to answer your nonsense post -

 

There were ample warning broadcast (in Arabic) both by Israeli and Palestinian sources prior to the protests. These were widely acknowledged and commented about.

 

You first seem to claim that there were no warning shots, now you go on about smoke grenades/tear gas. Well, both were used, as well as rubber bullets and live fire. That you assume or imply it was live fire without warning from the start and without warning is based on nothing much.

 

You must have forgotten that not everyone is willfully ignoring the protest not being peaceful, some participants being armed and some engaging in fire toward IDF soldiers. Bringing up the "right of free speech" "free expression" and all that - in the context of the Gaza Strip ruled by the Hamas is hypocritical, at best.And no, rushing the fence does not fall under free speech or expression.

Don’t see why any protest could be controlled without violence. Except if you need a PR ‘stunt’ in domestic political affairs.

Participation of Netanyahu back in Paris for the CharlieHebdo affair was also a PR stunt. You don’t control a demonstration and public opinion with snipers firing at u armed protesters.


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