Israeli forces kill 16 Palestinians in Gaza border protests - Gaza medics

[dexterm]

14 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

This is an outright lie and it is why tempers run hot on the  forum. Here are the facts;

 

1. Yes there is a buffer zone. This is due to the  frequent armed attacks and the digging of tunnels from Gaza into Israel from which to launch terrorist attacks. Maintaining the  buffer zone also forces the missile and rocket launches farther from the border.  There would be no need for a buffer zone if Hamas respected the border and stopped attacking Israel from Gaza. You neglect to mention that Israelis are forced to keep back from the border as well as they are subject to attack including sniper attacks. Israelis who wish to tend to their fields must do so from the confines of armoured tractors

 

2. The buffer zone had been 150m at the start of the second war  (aka intifadah) declared against Israel.

 

3. Because of the multiple  attacks and tunnel building between 2005 and 2010, Israel was forced to extend the buffer zone to 300m.

 

4. Yes, Israel can and will  undertake defensive measures against Hamas/Jihadist terrorists outside the 300m  buffer zone. It is Israel's legal and moral right to defend against such attacks.

 

If you don't want a buffer zone, volunteer to keep the peace on the  Gaza-Israel border. Go there and share your words of wisdom. Counsel your friends that sending children to be used as PR tools is  futile and a waste. There would be no need for a buffer zone if Hamas did not sanction violent terror attacks on Israel from the border. 

 

What border?

Israel is the only country in the world that officially recognizes it...even then I'm not sure if they have formalized their recognition. They frequently change their minds and their borders tend to shift.

Israel's buffer zone is just a means of forcing Gazans deeper into a ghetto. Shame on Israel.

[sanemax]

30 minutes ago, sanemax said:

https://www.alqassam.net/arabic/

 

   A requested link 

dexterm : Do you accept that as being genuine and that your claims about the photos of the dead Palestinians , dressed in military gear , you claimed that the photos were false Israeli propaganda , do you know accept the photos of the martyrs as being genuine , considering the photos came from groups affiliated to Hamas ?

   Do you now accept that the photos published by the IDF (after they got them from hamas) as being genuine photos of the deceased or will you stand by your claim that the photos are really of Israeli soldiers with Arabic names written under them ?

[Morch]

Just now, dexterm said:

I responding to another poster who was trying to score pathetically cheap points to justify Israel's current barbaric actions by extolling the wonders of the Israeli economy...off topic of course. So I replied very briefly saying yes the economy is wonderful because they did it by ethnically cleansing Palestinians and stealing their land[on topic..that's what the OP demonstrations relate to]. I mentioned it in a very vague way (no dates), because I know your track record of getting posts deleted. 

 

You saw this as a way of rehashing in detail the old canard mythology surrounding the 47-48 Nakba. So I responded to correct your nonsense.

 

"Frankly" roughly means "to be honest with you". You are saying to be honest with you there is no room for Palestinians whatever their merits as citizens simply because they are not Jews ...that's racism. i.e. you approve Israel's immigration policy which grants citizenship solely on the basis of a person's religion and tries its darnedest to keep its citizenship ranks pure by excluding any other race or religion, such as Palestinians demonstrating today to return to their confiscated homes.

 

>>Israel was set up as a homeland for the Jewish people. You wish to deny that, go ahead. You wish to claim such is unnecessary, go ahead. 
..set up at the expense of the resident indigenous Palestinian population who were ethnically cleansed to create a phony Jewish majority. A homeland for Jewish people is not necessary in the 21st Century..in fact it's more of a liability to world Jewry who are doing quite nicely where they are thank you, practising their religion without discrimination and voting with their feet not to migrate to Israel. On the contrary Israel's barbaric behavior such as today's becomes a source of anti Semitism directed at world Jewry, when Netanyahu proclaims Israel belongs solely to the world's Jews. Increasing numbers of fair minded Jews worldwide are saying "Please ..not in my name."

 

 

Yet another lame spin. You outright claimed I "introduced" something. That wasn't was not the case. Stop lying. Stop making them pitiful excuses blaming others for what you post or don't post. I didn't see it as anything but responding to your usual misrepresentations, twisting of facts and outright lies. Apparently alright for you to comment on some things, not ok to counter your comments. Seems like you can't even own up to your own fails...oh well.

 

Frankly means frankly. Stop putting words in my mouth, stop twisting my posts about. It clearly referred to how I view general opinions on this to be. I'm saying that IMO, most people accept Israel to be the homeland of the Jewish people. You don't? Tough. My take on this is more of a pragmatic, realistic, practical nature. Not so much your own faux moralizing. I'm not hellbent on the creation of an impossible utopia which would go up in flames and drown in blood. Apparently, you're all for that. Ignoring how things are in the ME, ignoring the nature of both societies, and trying to impose an extreme form of some imported ideological work-frame is not something I support, thanks.

 

You routinely ignore Palestinian society, generally speaking  is not secular, not particularly receptive to liberal ideas and not very tolerant. Concepts such as peaceful resolution,  accepting democratic process and such, are not its hallmarks. You somehow think that's a good basis to create an utopia? I don't.

 

As for Israel's existence as a home for the Jewish people being unnecessary, well that's your opinion. I don't think the vast majority of Jews would agree, and I doubt most of the world have as much issue with that as you do. What you're after is the same old thing - Israel's end. Spin and twist it all you like, rather obvious.

 

One doesn't have to accept or support all of Israel's policies and actions. Between this and your extreme hateful agenda, there's quite a gap. That you try to co-opt everyone critical of Israel as supporting your bile, is an all too familiar dishonest "debate" tactic.

[Judo Chop]

3 hours ago, Thorgal said:

 

Quote from link:

“On 30 March 2018, the Palestinian Land Day, at least 16 people were killed when the Israeli army opened fire on a protest taking place on the Palestinian side of the Gaza Strip's border with Israel.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Land_Day_incidents
 

 

The 2nd line of that link shows the wikipedia contributors true intentions of watering down Palestinian aggression in the face of evidence to the contrary.  " 30,000 people attended the event, during which tires were burnt and molotov cocktails and stones were thrown in the direction of the border. "

So what you and others would like to believe is that the Palestinians were throwing moltov cocktails at the border, not at members of the IDF. 

Rational people see right through the Palestinian propaganda and they certainly don't support the ultimate goals of Hamas which are not dissimilar to that of Hitler.

3 hours ago, Thorgal said:

 

 

[dexterm]

3 hours ago, sanemax said:

dexterm : Do you accept that as being genuine and that your claims about the photos of the dead Palestinians , dressed in military gear , you claimed that the photos were false Israeli propaganda , do you know accept the photos of the martyrs as being genuine , considering the photos came from groups affiliated to Hamas ?

   Do you now accept that the photos published by the IDF (after they got them from hamas) as being genuine photos of the deceased or will you stand by your claim that the photos are really of Israeli soldiers with Arabic names written under them ?

Sorry, I cant read your Arabic link. One of the forum rules..please post English.

I'll wait for the independent and transparent report recommended by the UN..if Israel allows it...highly unlikely..too much to hide.

 

Most young men in the Gaza ghetto have reason to resist the illegal Zionist occupiers. It wouldn't surprise me at all if some have links with Hamas. They certainly show more bravery than the fully protected most moral army in the world?? IDF snipers one of whom cold bloodedly shot a retreating protester in the back murdering him.

http://jfjfp.com/video-shows-palestinian-shot-from-behind-during-gaza-clashes/

 

I am sure there will be not even be an Israeli investigation into that either.

[Jingthing]

All of this seems to be leading up to the grand celebration of the state of Israel's 70th birthday. I reckon with the combination of the "trump" decisions about moving the embassy emboldening the west bank settler movement to build more aggressively and this major milestone of Israel's 70th, we can expect many more provocative protests from the Palestinians in Gaza and the W.B.

 

Let me add my voice of disdain to those that imagine that Israel is ever going to commit national suicide. Israel, flawed as she is, is here to stay. Best plan is to deal with that reality. 

 

Quote

 

Israel to celebrate 70th birthday with 70-hour spectacle

From a 70 km all-night beach party, to parades and street events, Culture Minister Miri Regev promises 'you won't be bored' at April celebrations

 

 

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-celebrate-70th-birthday-with-70-hour-spectacle/

Edited April 1, 2018 by Jingthing

[dexterm]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Yet another lame spin. You outright claimed I "introduced" something. That wasn't was not the case. Stop lying. Stop making them pitiful excuses blaming others for what you post or don't post. I didn't see it as anything but responding to your usual misrepresentations, twisting of facts and outright lies. Apparently alright for you to comment on some things, not ok to counter your comments. Seems like you can't even own up to your own fails...oh well.

 

Frankly means frankly. Stop putting words in my mouth, stop twisting my posts about. It clearly referred to how I view general opinions on this to be. I'm saying that IMO, most people accept Israel to be the homeland of the Jewish people. You don't? Tough. My take on this is more of a pragmatic, realistic, practical nature. Not so much your own faux moralizing. I'm not hellbent on the creation of an impossible utopia which would go up in flames and drown in blood. Apparently, you're all for that. Ignoring how things are in the ME, ignoring the nature of both societies, and trying to impose an extreme form of some imported ideological work-frame is not something I support, thanks.

 

You routinely ignore Palestinian society, generally speaking  is not secular, not particularly receptive to liberal ideas and not very tolerant. Concepts such as peaceful resolution,  accepting democratic process and such, are not its hallmarks. You somehow think that's a good basis to create an utopia? I don't.

 

As for Israel's existence as a home for the Jewish people being unnecessary, well that's your opinion. I don't think the vast majority of Jews would agree, and I doubt most of the world have as much issue with that as you do. What you're after is the same old thing - Israel's end. Spin and twist it all you like, rather obvious.

 

One doesn't have to accept or support all of Israel's policies and actions. Between this and your extreme hateful agenda, there's quite a gap. That you try to co-opt everyone critical of Israel as supporting your bile, is an all too familiar dishonest "debate" tactic.

1st para...pedantic. I explained quite truthfully how the sequence of posts unfolded.

 

2nd para... I don't accept how a return of refugees, arranged gradually and securely, will cause your extremist black and white fallacy scenario..that it will either be a bloodbath or an impossible utopia. BTW the current OP bloodbath was caused by IDF live rounds. Your idea of impossibility is exactly how I and most of the forum members in their home countries live...weird.... maybe you have never experienced living in a free open society

 

>>As for Israel's existence as a home for the Jewish people being unnecessary, well that's your opinion. I don't think the vast majority of Jews would agree, and I doubt most of the world have as much issue with that as you do. What you're after is the same old thing - Israel's end.
... I don't see the vast majority of world Jewry choosing to go and live in Israel either. You're entitled to your doubts about world opinion... I have no doubts and give more weight and credence to recent UN votes on the subject.

4th para...And the same old misrepresentation and spin from you that I have addressed umpteen times, but you troll it up again. I do not seek Israel's end, I seek the end of Zionist apartheid.... a minority has no right to subjugate a majority based purely on their religion. There is no reason that: written into a new constitution, Israel could continue to be a safe haven for any Jew in the world who is genuinely persecuted.

 

5th para..your usual flame.

Edited April 1, 2018 by dexterm

[i claudius]

Israel built a great country by using the free land they confiscated from Palestinian owners while ethnically cleansing most of them into Gaza and the West Bank. Now they want even more free land..but that's another story
 
The Palestinians were attempting to do something about it today, but you see it is the supremacist Israelis who have all the guns and planes and the ability to blockade and control every facet of Palestinian lives. Makes it kinda hard to get out of the pit.

So you are saying that if they got this land back they would work hard and build a modern state just like Israel? I suppose they would also build a wonderful airforce of flying pink pigs

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Morch]

7 hours ago, dexterm said:

What border?

Israel is the only country in the world that officially recognizes it...even then I'm not sure if they have formalized their recognition. They frequently change their minds and their borders tend to shift.

Israel's buffer zone is just a means of forcing Gazans deeper into a ghetto. Shame on Israel.

 

Play your semantics games all you like. There is no real question, in this instance, of where the de-facto border is, and where the border will pass, if and when a peace agreement will be signed. Your one sided take fails to acknowledge that the Palestinian faction ruling the Gaza Strip does not even officially recognize Israel.

 

Israel's buffer zone is a means to prevent attacks by the Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the like from just across the border. That you would like to afford them this opportunity is understandable, but not necessarily acceptable. Got to love how you occasionally enter the leaf fig about "Israel's security concerns", and yet deny almost any relevant instance as such.

[geriatrickid]

8 hours ago, dexterm said:

What border?

Israel is the only country in the world that officially recognizes it...even then I'm not sure if they have formalized their recognition. They frequently change their minds and their borders tend to shift.

Israel's buffer zone is just a means of forcing Gazans deeper into a ghetto. Shame on Israel.

Seriously? Why do you lie? Is it to get attention or are you so consumed with hate that you are incapable of accepting reality? Egypt and Jordan accept their border with Israel. This was done as part of their peace treaties.  Everyone knows that. The border with Lebanon border is uncontested. Only Syria  does not accept the border, and of course  the lovely arabs of Hamas do not accept any border with Israel because the constitution of Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel and the death of all jews in the region.

[dexterm]

3 hours ago, i claudius said:

So you are saying that if they got this land back they would work hard and build a modern state just like Israel? I suppose they would also build a wonderful airforce of flying pink pigs

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I think you have already answered your own trolling question. 

Not feeding the trolls tonight.

[sirineou]

It has being asked how were the german atrocities during WII allowed to occur.  The answer is Just in the way they occur now.

Plenty of apologists to go around then and now. 

[dexterm]

2 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

Seriously? Why do you lie? Is it to get attention or are you so consumed with hate that you are incapable of accepting reality? Egypt and Jordan accept their border with Israel. This was done as part of their peace treaties.  Everyone knows that. The border with Lebanon border is uncontested. Only Syria  does not accept the border, and of course  the lovely arabs of Hamas do not accept any border with Israel because the constitution of Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel and the death of all jews in the region.

I think you'd better check the map for internationally recognized borders between Gaza and Egypt and Jordan and Lebanon before you embarrass yourself even more. 

[Morch]

4 hours ago, dexterm said:

Sorry, I cant read your Arabic link. One of the forum rules..please post English.

I'll wait for the independent and transparent report recommended by the UN..if Israel allows it...highly unlikely..too much to hide.

 

Most young men in the Gaza ghetto have reason to resist the illegal Zionist occupiers. It wouldn't surprise me at all if some have links with Hamas. They certainly show more bravery than the fully protected most moral army in the world?? IDF snipers one of whom cold bloodedly shot a retreating protester in the back murdering him.

http://jfjfp.com/video-shows-palestinian-shot-from-behind-during-gaza-clashes/

 

I am sure there will be not even be an Israeli investigation into that either.

 

Just a pathetic desperation to deny facts. Or simply low grade trolling. Take your pick.

 

Quote

Four of the dead on the Health Ministry's list were members of the Hamas military wing, the group said Saturday. The group said two people not counted in the official death toll were missing and presumed dead. It said Israel had the two bodies, including that of a Hamas military wing member.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/15-killed-hundreds-injured-bloodiest-day-gaza-2014-clashes-n861701

 

Quote

Hamas said that five of the protesters killed Friday were members of the organization's military wing in Gaza.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-gaza-clashes-resume-thousands-attend-funerals-of-those-killed-1.5962697

 

 

And do spare the nonsense about waiting for yada yada yada....not when you apparently have no problems jumping to conclusions and announcing whatever fits your point of view as fact.

 

The guy in the clip is, unless much mistaken, one of them identified by the Hamas as an operative. I could venture an educated guess as to why carrying that car tire was apparently so important, not too complicated. But yeah, optics (unless shown to be incorrect) aren't too good on this one.

 

 

[dexterm]

46 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Play your semantics games all you like. There is no real question, in this instance, of where the de-facto border is, and where the border will pass, if and when a peace agreement will be signed. Your one sided take fails to acknowledge that the Palestinian faction ruling the Gaza Strip does not even officially recognize Israel.

 

Israel's buffer zone is a means to prevent attacks by the Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the like from just across the border. That you would like to afford them this opportunity is understandable, but not necessarily acceptable. Got to love how you occasionally enter the leaf fig about "Israel's security concerns", and yet deny almost any relevant instance as such.

Ah would that Israel were playing with semantics when it talks about borders: Green Live, Separation Barrier, area C, the Jordan River??

Some Israeli officials have even mooted that Gaza should be part of Egypt and whatever crumbs Israel cares to leave in the West Bank become part of Jordan. It's all a mystery.

 

"De facto" is clearly not the same as officially recognized. Learn to read more carefully.

 

Moreover when is a de facto border not a de facto border?...when Israel unilaterally keeps moving it a few  hundred meters and murders anyone who doesn't agree with them!

 

"Israel's security concerns"...you are misrepresenting me and twisting my words yet again. I always mention "Israel's security concerns" as part of a final settlement agreement... an agreed upon mechanism on both sides of any future recognized Palestinian border to maintain calm, not Israel's current ad hoc turkey shoot on the Gaza border.

Edited April 1, 2018 by dexterm

[Morch]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

All of this seems to be leading up to the grand celebration of the state of Israel's 70th birthday. I reckon with the combination of the "trump" decisions about moving the embassy emboldening the west bank settler movement to build more aggressively and this major milestone of Israel's 70th, we can expect many more provocative protests from the Palestinians in Gaza and the W.B.

 

Let me add my voice of disdain to those that imagine that Israel is ever going to commit national suicide. Israel, flawed as she is, is here to stay. Best plan is to deal with that reality. 

 

 

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-celebrate-70th-birthday-with-70-hour-spectacle/

 

The protests are planned to continue from the Palestinian Land Day, until the Palestinian Nakba Day - the latter coinciding with Israel's Independence Day. So it's not simply about disrupting Israel's celebrations etc. The Palestinians, mark these dates for years now. They have the right to see things from the opposite angle. Obviously, the major political factions milk it (like certain posters) for all it's worth. Most of the organizers of the Gaza protests, though, are not strongly associated with either Hamas or the Fatah (well, the latter is not much of an option). In a way, this protest is worrisome also for Palestinian leaders (hence trying to co-opt it) because some of the sentiment involved has to do with their public being fed up with the internal splits, corruption and policies that go nowhere. How and if this will develop, yet to be seen.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, dexterm said:

1st para...pedantic. I explained quite truthfully how the sequence of posts unfolded.

 

2nd para... I don't accept how a return of refugees, arranged gradually and securely, will cause your extremist black and white fallacy scenario..that it will either be a bloodbath or an impossible utopia. BTW the current OP bloodbath was caused by IDF live rounds. Your idea of impossibility is exactly how I and most of the forum members in their home countries live...weird.... maybe you have never experienced living in a free open society

 

>>As for Israel's existence as a home for the Jewish people being unnecessary, well that's your opinion. I don't think the vast majority of Jews would agree, and I doubt most of the world have as much issue with that as you do. What you're after is the same old thing - Israel's end.
... I don't see the vast majority of world Jewry choosing to go and live in Israel either. You're entitled to your doubts about world opinion... I have no doubts and give more weight and credence to recent UN votes on the subject.

4th para...And the same old misrepresentation and spin from you that I have addressed umpteen times, but you troll it up again. I do not seek Israel's end, I seek the end of Zionist apartheid.... a minority has no right to subjugate a majority based purely on their religion. There is no reason that: written into a new constitution, Israel could continue to be a safe haven for any Jew in the world who is genuinely persecuted.

 

5th para..your usual flame.

 

Not pedantic in the least. If anything your lame spin is. You claimed I "introduced" something, whereas, in fact I did not. Quite amazing you'd blatantly try to lie about that when it's black on white up the topic.

 

What you accept or don't accept means less than little. You do not seem to possess a whole lot by way of being informed with regard to either society, beyond your one-sided propaganda memes. You staunchly refuse to address anything whatsoever which may present one of the sides in a less than flattering light. How, then, can your views and assessments be even halfway credible?

 

You do not, and never have, offered any practical way of bringing about your nonsensical views. Most of what you spew indicates vast gaps in much that's relevant to both societies, and the Middle East at large. Apparently, you seem to think that an imported world view could simply be foisted on both societies, and all will be well.

 

What bearing do the countries members come from represent? All (or at least most) took decades, if not centuries, and a whole lot of bloodshed, to achieve the sort of peaceful existence they enjoy today. Furthermore, these countries are most likely not Middle Eastern ones, not home to two peoples - each with its own strong representation of religious nutters and extremists. Open societies take a long while to come about, and it is not an easy road. Whatever nonsense that you're selling, personal comments and all...you'll have to do much better than tossing about vague, half-correct generalizations.

 

There is no imperative for all world Jews to live in Israel. That's a bogus comment and implied claim. All the more odd coming from (presumably) an expat. There is no massive UN vote which calls for the annihilation of Israel, or claims that it's existence as a home for the Jewish people is unnecessary - that would be you trying the dishonest co-opting thing again.

 

 

You do seek Israel's end. Spin it however you like. Had your bellicose posts been limited to a the two-state solution option, perhaps. But your main drive is to achieve a state of things in which Israel is a hollow construct - and, ultimately, a Palestinian state replacing it. All your waffle and faux moralizing can't hide that. The "constitution" rubbish is plain disingenuous, considering parties involved and existing condition. Nothing new there.

 

and this?

 

Quote

One doesn't have to accept or support all of Israel's policies and actions. Between this and your extreme hateful agenda, there's quite a gap. That you try to co-opt everyone critical of Israel as supporting your bile, is an all too familiar dishonest "debate" tactic.

 

This ain't no flame, that's an accurate statement of fact, followed by an accurate description of your posting antics.

 

 

[sanemax]

5 hours ago, dexterm said:

Sorry, I cant read your Arabic link. One of the forum rules..please post English.
 

O.K. The translation to English was posted, but you didnt believe that

The original was posted in Arabic, but you didnt believe that

And you just make something up about them "really" being IDF , in disguise 

And you believe your own made up stories?

IMO, thats irrational 

[Morch]

31 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Ah would that Israel were playing with semantics when it talks about borders: Green Live, Separation Barrier, area C, the Jordan River??

Some Israeli officials have even mooted that Gaza should be part of Egypt and whatever crumbs Israel cares to leave in the West Bank become part of Jordan. It's all a mystery.

 

"De facto" is clearly not the same as officially recognized. Learn to read more carefully.

 

Moreover when is a de facto border not a de facto border?...when Israel unilaterally keeps moving it a few  hundred meters and murders anyone who doesn't agree with them!

 

"Israel's security concerns"...you are misrepresenting me and twisting my words yet again. I always mention "Israel's security concerns" as part of a final settlement agreement... an agreed upon mechanism on both sides of any future recognized Palestinian border to maintain calm, not Israel's current ad hoc turkey shoot on the Gaza border.

 

As expected, more of your one-sided nonsense semantics game replies.

 

Some of Israel's borders are internationally (or officially, whatever) announced and agreed upon. Some aren't. You're trying for the usual wholesale claim, which is factually incorrect. And obviously, borders have two sides - so not quite the case that it's all just up to Israel to decide and announce. Considering there are no peace agreements between Israel and three of its neighbors, and that this state of things is not solely because of Israel (enter your ridiculous denials here) - why would there be an expectation that border will be officially set and recognized? That is, unless one tries for a faux propaganda talking point.

 

Furthermore, Israel is hardly the only country with border disputes and disagreements. Trying to paint it as unique is nothing but misleading, if expected.

 

De facto is de facto. And under current and prevailing conditions, that's the best there is. Good enough for occasional agreements with Palestinian factions, mediated by neighboring Egypt. That you choose to ignore or deny this, is once more, meaningless. That you go on about it not being "official" is ridiculous - don't see you whining about whether Hamas is an official representative, for instance. Just more propaganda hot air.

 

I am not misrepresenting you at all. You're either backtracking or haven't fully realized the implications of the phrase. If you imagine that there will be no such security buffer zone (and a strictly enforced one), or that there will be no fence, no walls - you're quite out there. And, of course, you ignore that Hamas accepted (through Egyptian mediation) this very same buffer zone, and conditions implied. It was not quite decided by one side only.

[Scott]

Continuing to troll the thread with remarks about WWII and the Nazis and all the comparisons will get you a suspension.

 

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

[dexterm]

37 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

As expected, more of your one-sided nonsense semantics game replies.

 

Some of Israel's borders are internationally (or officially, whatever) announced and agreed upon. Some aren't. You're trying for the usual wholesale claim, which is factually incorrect. And obviously, borders have two sides - so not quite the case that it's all just up to Israel to decide and announce. Considering there are no peace agreements between Israel and three of its neighbors, and that this state of things is not solely because of Israel (enter your ridiculous denials here) - why would there be an expectation that border will be officially set and recognized? That is, unless one tries for a faux propaganda talking point.

 

Furthermore, Israel is hardly the only country with border disputes and disagreements. Trying to paint it as unique is nothing but misleading, if expected.

 

De facto is de facto. And under current and prevailing conditions, that's the best there is. Good enough for occasional agreements with Palestinian factions, mediated by neighboring Egypt. That you choose to ignore or deny this, is once more, meaningless. That you go on about it not being "official" is ridiculous - don't see you whining about whether Hamas is an official representative, for instance. Just more propaganda hot air.

 

I am not misrepresenting you at all. You're either backtracking or haven't fully realized the implications of the phrase. If you imagine that there will be no such security buffer zone (and a strictly enforced one), or that there will be no fence, no walls - you're quite out there. And, of course, you ignore that Hamas accepted (through Egyptian mediation) this very same buffer zone, and conditions implied. It was not quite decided by one side only.

>>Some of Israel's borders are internationally (or officially, whatever) announced and agreed upon. Some aren't. 
..hear hear. But you're prepared to argue the hind leg off a mule differently just for the sake of arguing.

 

The story so far. An uninformed poster seemed to think that the border between Israel and Gaza is an unambiguous internationally recognized official fact, and how dare these Palestinians (who once just happened to live the other side of that fence and are now being denied the right of return there) approach this fence/border.

I pointed out the border was not internationally officially recognized and is in dispute.

 

You responded with a load of waffle about de facto this and de facto that deflecting to talk about other borders, never once denying the fact as I pointed out...the OP Gaza border is not an official border and Israel defines it as it feels like it,  sometimes not telling Palestinian farmers doing early morning harvesting and blow them to pieces with artillery shells...nice neighbors! But they have the decency to mention them in dispatches casting aspersions that they obviously must have been terrorists...why else would we have killed them? Why else indeed?

Edited April 1, 2018 by dexterm

[dexterm]

54 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Not pedantic in the least. If anything your lame spin is. You claimed I "introduced" something, whereas, in fact I did not. Quite amazing you'd blatantly try to lie about that when it's black on white up the topic.

 

What you accept or don't accept means less than little. You do not seem to possess a whole lot by way of being informed with regard to either society, beyond your one-sided propaganda memes. You staunchly refuse to address anything whatsoever which may present one of the sides in a less than flattering light. How, then, can your views and assessments be even halfway credible?

 

You do not, and never have, offered any practical way of bringing about your nonsensical views. Most of what you spew indicates vast gaps in much that's relevant to both societies, and the Middle East at large. Apparently, you seem to think that an imported world view could simply be foisted on both societies, and all will be well.

 

What bearing do the countries members come from represent? All (or at least most) took decades, if not centuries, and a whole lot of bloodshed, to achieve the sort of peaceful existence they enjoy today. Furthermore, these countries are most likely not Middle Eastern ones, not home to two peoples - each with its own strong representation of religious nutters and extremists. Open societies take a long while to come about, and it is not an easy road. Whatever nonsense that you're selling, personal comments and all...you'll have to do much better than tossing about vague, half-correct generalizations.

 

There is no imperative for all world Jews to live in Israel. That's a bogus comment and implied claim. All the more odd coming from (presumably) an expat. There is no massive UN vote which calls for the annihilation of Israel, or claims that it's existence as a home for the Jewish people is unnecessary - that would be you trying the dishonest co-opting thing again.

 

 

You do seek Israel's end. Spin it however you like. Had your bellicose posts been limited to a the two-state solution option, perhaps. But your main drive is to achieve a state of things in which Israel is a hollow construct - and, ultimately, a Palestinian state replacing it. All your waffle and faux moralizing can't hide that. The "constitution" rubbish is plain disingenuous, considering parties involved and existing condition. Nothing new there.

 

and this?

 

 

This ain't no flame, that's an accurate statement of fact, followed by an accurate description of your posting antics.

 

 

para 1..In response to another poster's comment about what a great country Israel and its economy were.

Relating it to the OP demonstrators protesting about being ethnically cleansed I simply said
"Israel built a great country by using the free land they confiscated from Palestinian owners while ethnically cleansing most of them into Gaza and the West Bank. Now they want even more free land..but that's another story"

 

..no dates, no descriptions of events and I even wrote "but that's another story" clearly indicating I wanted to stay on topic and did not want to deflect to events of 70 years ago more suitable to another thread. Because I know your track record of getting off topic posts deleted.

 

But...no, not good enough for Morch. Whooosh...he takes this as a green light to go off topic and launch in detail into the Zionist mythology of events surrounding the Nakba in 47-8, probably in the hope of drawing me into a serious off topic conversation.

Not playing your game today.

 

The rest of your post is garbage rehashing items I have already addressed, just for the sake of your prolonging a discussion.

Edited April 1, 2018 by dexterm

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

>>Some of Israel's borders are internationally (or officially, whatever) announced and agreed upon. Some aren't. 
..hear hear. But you're prepared to argue the hind leg off a mule differently just for the sake of arguing.

 

The story so far. An uninformed poster seemed to think that the border between Israel and Gaza is an unambiguous internationally recognized official fact, and how dare these Palestinians (who once just happened to live the other side of that fence and are now being denied the right of return there) approach this fence/border.

I pointed out the border was not internationally officially recognized and is in dispute.

 

You responded with a load of waffle about de facto this and de facto that deflecting to talk about other borders, never once denying the fact as I pointed out...the OP Gaza border is not an official border and Israel defines it as it feels like it,  sometimes not telling Palestinian farmers doing early morning harvesting and blow them to pieces with artillery shells...nice neighbors! But they have the decency to mention them in dispatches casting aspersions that they obviously must have been terrorists...why else would we have killed them? Why else indeed?

 

Eh? Are you trying to pretend this is the first (or second, or third..etc) time we had this exchange? Here is how it goes - you make a incorrect wholesale wide-brush comment, I respond with a correction, you whine. Stop making them wide brush, wholesale comments, and I'll be more than happy not to correct them. Pretending that you do not routinely make these sort of comments, is false.

 

I don't care much about your "story so far" nonsense. I'm pointing out that the border is effectively recognized by Israel, Hamas, the PA and Egypt. Almost all other countries refer to the same. You trying to play semantics games does not change that.

 

Gaza's residents know where the border is. Whether they like it or not isn't the point. Whether it will be a somewhat different (but hardly much) border, if and when a peace agreement is signed, is not the point. In the here and now, there is no effective doubts regarding the border - other than in your imagination and propaganda posts.

 

What you call "waffle", is actually known as reality. That you find it hard to accept reality is nothing new. And, of course, there was no "deflection", but a correction of your wide-brush wholesale comment. You don't like being corrected? Don't post such comments.

 

What would be the significance of this border being "official" to the OP? Nada. But do go on about "pedantic" - while banging on an faux talking point. Pretty much as most of the constructs you inject to the topic. You keep ignoring that Hamas did agree to the buffer zone setup, and that it does recognize the border - de-facto, of course. This being because Hamas does not even officially recognize Israel. You can't play the "official" bit on your one-sided agenda card or by ignoring Hamas position.

 

Somehow, in your world, there seem to be no terrorist attacks by Palestinians, all being "farmers". Sounds legit, Not. And as for "nice neighbors" - guess no mortars fired, no rockets launched either. Believable, Not. Whenever you can't make an argument or point, the default is drama and exaggerations. This one ain't different.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

para 1..In response to another poster's comment about what a great country Israel and its economy were.

Relating it to the OP demonstrators protesting about being ethnically cleansed I simply said
"Israel built a great country by using the free land they confiscated from Palestinian owners while ethnically cleansing most of them into Gaza and the West Bank. Now they want even more free land..but that's another story"

 

..no dates, no descriptions of events and I even wrote "but that's another story" clearly indicating I wanted to stay on topic and did not want to deflect to events of 70 years ago more suitable to another thread. Because I know your track record of getting off topic posts deleted.

 

But...no, not good enough for Morch. Whooosh...he takes this as a green light to go off topic and launch in detail into the Zionist mythology of events surrounding the Nakba in 47-8, probably in the hope of drawing me into a serious off topic conversation.

Not playing your game today.

 

The rest of your post is garbage rehashing items I have already addressed, just for the sake of your prolonging a discussion.

 

You see no issues posting intentionally misleading,  incorrect wide-brush comments. You do see a problem when these are called out for what they are. You reserve the right to comment and correct other posters' statements, yet somehow the same is rejected when applied to yours. Thanks for making my point.

 

I'm not obligated to accept your habitual sneaky way of injecting falsehoods into these discussions. If you don't want to stray off topic, then don't. You can't go there and then whine about responses. And do stop blaming other posters for your posting failures. That's your own responsibility.

 

I did not go into any mythology, and it was not even detailed - just your usual exaggerations blowing things out of proportions. That's usually a sign you've got nothing of substance to contribute.

 

And no, you haven't actually addressed the points raised - not with regard to Hamas being a side to current arrangements, not with regard to Hamas not even officially recognizing Israel, not with regard to the relevance of the "official" nonsense, not with regard to your fantasy concepts of "farmers" and "good neighbors".

 

It's bad enough that you try twisting reality, but doing the same with recent posts...tsk tsk.

[dexterm]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

As expected, more of your one-sided nonsense semantics game replies.

 

Some of Israel's borders are internationally (or officially, whatever) announced and agreed upon. Some aren't. You're trying for the usual wholesale claim, which is factually incorrect. And obviously, borders have two sides - so not quite the case that it's all just up to Israel to decide and announce. Considering there are no peace agreements between Israel and three of its neighbors, and that this state of things is not solely because of Israel (enter your ridiculous denials here) - why would there be an expectation that border will be officially set and recognized? That is, unless one tries for a faux propaganda talking point.

 

Furthermore, Israel is hardly the only country with border disputes and disagreements. Trying to paint it as unique is nothing but misleading, if expected.

 

De facto is de facto. And under current and prevailing conditions, that's the best there is. Good enough for occasional agreements with Palestinian factions, mediated by neighboring Egypt. That you choose to ignore or deny this, is once more, meaningless. That you go on about it not being "official" is ridiculous - don't see you whining about whether Hamas is an official representative, for instance. Just more propaganda hot air.

 

I am not misrepresenting you at all. You're either backtracking or haven't fully realized the implications of the phrase. If you imagine that there will be no such security buffer zone (and a strictly enforced one), or that there will be no fence, no walls - you're quite out there. And, of course, you ignore that Hamas accepted (through Egyptian mediation) this very same buffer zone, and conditions implied. It was not quite decided by one side only.

As usual a mountain of obfuscatory hogwash.

 

I simply replied to an ill-informed poster that the border protesters were approaching was not an officially recognized border, and that in essence that was what the whole dispute was about...Israel refusing the right of people who were born in what is now Israel to return there.

 

In all your verbose baloney you have not denied the correctness of my simple statement that de facto disputable borders are not the same as officially recognised borders. Yes or no.

 

Instead you go on and on and on ad nauseam....accusing me of making a wholesale straw man claim about Israel's borders in general with other neighboring countries, when I am clearly talking specifically (and btw on topic unlike you) about the OP Gaza border where the OP demonstrations are. 

Then you throw in a bit of deflectionary whataboutery regarding other completely different countries' borders. 

Then go on and on and on about issues about Hamas and Egypt completed unrelated to my statement that the particular border the protesters were approaching is not something inviolably set in international statutes as the original poster would have us believe and how dare the protesters ignore it.

 

I see your MO now. You are just a filibuster who types endlessly rehashing and saying nothing new in the hope that the other poster will give up exhausted by your inane turgidness

[dexterm]

47 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You see no issues posting intentionally misleading,  incorrect wide-brush comments. You do see a problem when these are called out for what they are. You reserve the right to comment and correct other posters' statements, yet somehow the same is rejected when applied to yours. Thanks for making my point.

 

I'm not obligated to accept your habitual sneaky way of injecting falsehoods into these discussions. If you don't want to stray off topic, then don't. You can't go there and then whine about responses. And do stop blaming other posters for your posting failures. That's your own responsibility.

 

I did not go into any mythology, and it was not even detailed - just your usual exaggerations blowing things out of proportions. That's usually a sign you've got nothing of substance to contribute.

 

And no, you haven't actually addressed the points raised - not with regard to Hamas being a side to current arrangements, not with regard to Hamas not even officially recognizing Israel, not with regard to the relevance of the "official" nonsense, not with regard to your fantasy concepts of "farmers" and "good neighbors".

 

It's bad enough that you try twisting reality, but doing the same with recent posts...tsk tsk.

I suspect Morch you are in a world of your own with these ramblings. Even I don't understand what you are on about, let alone forum readers.

I think you should address points more succinctly with clear references and quotes.

 

[dexterm]

As predicted Israel with the help of the dog whose tail it wags has rejected any independent and transparent inquiry into its murderous handiwork on the Gaza border. Par for the course for the only so called democracy in the Middle East with nothing to hide.

 

"The United States has blocked a draft statement by the United Nations Security Council that called for an investigation into the killing of 17 unarmed Palestinian protesters near the Gaza Strip's eastern border. 
The statement, which was proposed by Kuwait, demanded an "independent and transparent investigation" under international law into the bloody events on Friday's Land Day protests.
The statement also expressed "grave concern at the situation at the border" and stressed "the right to peaceful protest"."
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/04/blocks-unsc-statement-israel-force-land-day-180401054016894.html

 

'"Avigdor Lieberman, the Israeli defence minister, rejected criticism of Israel’s actions, saying soldiers along the Gaza frontier “deserve a medal” and did what was necessary to protect the border.

“As for a commission of inquiry - there won’t be one,” he told Israeli Army Radio."'

 

https://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFKCN1H80YK

[midas]

49 minutes ago, dexterm said:

I suspect Morch you are in a world of your own with these ramblings. Even I don't understand what you are on about, let alone forum readers.

I think you should address points more succinctly with clear references and quotes.

 

waffle on  comes to mind 

[Jingthing]

So storming the border, what do you think they thought was gonna happen? Excessive force is one thing and that's not good, but same question. Storming the border. Armed soldiers. Get real. 

[Khun Han]

6 hours ago, dexterm said:

As usual a mountain of obfuscatory hogwash.

 

I simply replied to an ill-informed poster that the border protesters were approaching was not an officially recognized border, and that in essence that was what the whole dispute was about...Israel refusing the right of people who were born in what is now Israel to return there.

 

In all your verbose baloney you have not denied the correctness of my simple statement that de facto disputable borders are not the same as officially recognised borders. Yes or no.

 

Instead you go on and on and on ad nauseam....accusing me of making a wholesale straw man claim about Israel's borders in general with other neighboring countries, when I am clearly talking specifically (and btw on topic unlike you) about the OP Gaza border where the OP demonstrations are. 

Then you throw in a bit of deflectionary whataboutery regarding other completely different countries' borders. 

Then go on and on and on about issues about Hamas and Egypt completed unrelated to my statement that the particular border the protesters were approaching is not something inviolably set in international statutes as the original poster would have us believe and how dare the protesters ignore it.

 

I see your MO now. You are just a filibuster who types endlessly rehashing and saying nothing new in the hope that the other poster will give up exhausted by your inane turgidness

 

Nail hit squarely on head. And you have highlighted yet more pro-Israeli, anti-Palestinian dog whistling.