catastrophe: chase bank froze my accounts

[daij1944]

i have had a chase account for about 8 years and lived in thailand on and off for the last 4. never had any problems handling my accounts from here. i had rented a place in berkeley, ca for when i go back in a month's time. the new landlord wanted a wire transfer. so i did a wire transfer for $4,800. for whatever reason (chase refuses to say) the wire transfer was rejected and chase froze all my accounts. "all you have to do is come into any branch and show two pieces of id".  pointing out the impracticality of this instruction to someone 9,000 miles from his nearest branch when you just nixed his debit card was no use. i went through maybe 4 different supervisors with all of them giving me that unflappable "i'm sorry sir" and ending with "have a nice day, thank you for allowing us to serve you".  my daughter will go down to her local branch on monday and maybe it'll get squared away but maybe not. i have a few dollars in other accounts but i have bills to pay that all go thru chase (it's the end of the month) and it looks like a catastrophe.   in the mean time, does anyone have any realistic advice that could help? 

Edited March 31, 2018 by daij1944

[Jingthing]

Not to you, no.

I would be very surprised if you can fix this without doing exactly what they told you would fix it, and nothing short of that.

But good luck.

 

I can post something to future expats. Be paranoid because U.S. financial institutions really don't like expats. Open multiple U.S. bank accounts BEFORE you move and have multiple BACKUP plans. I've been here a long time. I did that and have lost use of the majority of the accounts I opened before moving here. If I had not, I would be screwed. If I lose more, I can still be screwed. Opening U.S. accounts after already being an expat is not something that can be normally done. 

[ChiangMaiLightning2143]

I dealt with a similar problem, checking account being frozen suddenly and repeatedly, with Bank of America a few years ago there may be a way you can handle this. Customer service would say "you cannot" have an international address even though they had been handling me for years . 

 

• Find out the name and title of Chase Banks Senior VP of Retail Banking or similar you can get this info easily from  their website
• Write an email, attempt to send (and CC the CEO) explaining your issue, and critically PRINT OUT and send it by FEDEX to their corporate headquarters.
• Why? People of influence use couriers, not the post office. Also such transmissions are scrutinized for security reasons/ threats, many crazy people and sometimes dangerous devices and they are quickly picked up by the FBI.

Thus I was able I got in touch with somebody at corporate to release the freezes. This worked for me but it kept happening and I gave up on them and went to Charles Schwab. Much better but "Charles Schwab Bank" will not do international wires. I can send wires by transfering funds to their brokerage side and making a few calls.

 

I also have a Bank of Hawaii checking card. NEVER travel without at least 2 ATM cards you may find yourself  unable to get cash!

[Langsuan Man]

Unfortunately this is a worldwide trend and is not going to get any better so anyone considering becoming an expat in Thailand, or anywhere else for that matter, had better obtain and keep a physical presence in the US or their home country

 

For those already having US Bank accounts, without a permanent residence, it would be best if you to do your online banking via a country specific  VPN.  A VPN would probably be detected trying to open a new account but normal banking would probably not raise suspicion 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Langsuan Man

[sqwakvfr]

This is how I deal with this kind of problem.  I have lived and worked in 3 countries and now retired in Thailand.

 

1.  I bank only with USAA(been a member for 30 years) and membership does require require military service or related to a service member.  USAA has been responsive to my needs no matter where in the world I am(they have never frozen any of my accounts).  If you can qualify for membership it might be worth looking into.  The latest example of great service was sending me a replacement credit card through FedEx in just under 5 days.  Obviously this option applies to Americans.  USAA conducts most of it's business through it's website and has only a limited number of physical branches.  

 

2.  I have always maintained a USA Address(just a mailing address).  I always notify USAA where  I am working/living at.  

[55Jay]

No help to you right now, but noticed State Department Credit Union apparently accepts American Citizens Abroad members, without a US physical address required to open or maintain the account.  I haven't looked into this particular credit union or their procedures, fees, services, etc., but on its face, could be an option for Muricans who are already overseas and need to develop US banking options and/or back ups.

https://www.americansabroad.org/sdfcu-account/

 

Good luck with Chase, hope you can find a way around the lock out. 

[thaipo7]

I deal with a very small local bank in NJ.  All checks get deposited there and I have a debit card and the only place it is used is Thailand.  Been doing this since 2010 and I pay NO fees in NJ or where I bank in Thailand.  What I see that day as the exchange rate is what I get and sometime a couple satang more.  I hear of people using big banks and having troubles along with fees.  Just lucky I get.  Both me and the Mrs. are allowed to with draw up to $1000 a day each.

[dotpoom]

This may be of no help at all, I am European and all of the banks (some more quickly than others) in my country have been asking for forms of ID from all a/c holders to continue to keep their a/c's open. ..have 30 days to comply. I will have to do something about it as I live in Thailand. ...But to the point of my post. Apart from a driving licence or a passport a major ID they might ask to see is a utility bill in one's name. Now this is usually not possible if you live abroad. However, my Ex went to the babk yesterday to explain the position ( me being abroad), while she was there she asked how people living abroad could have one in their name, she said it must be a problem for many people....."Not really" the manager said ..."for example, you can put your Ex. (me) as a joint name on your utility bill....Well well! ..I myself never knew that was possible.

  My address with the bank is her address, not a Thai address. He said,..."just tell the utility company that your Ex. is living with you and wishes to pay half the bills....simple..eh.

[Dustdevil]

19 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Not to you, no.

I would be very surprised if you can fix this without doing exactly what they told you would fix it, and nothing short of that.

But good luck.

 

I can post something to future expats. Be paranoid because U.S. financial institutions really don't like expats. Open multiple U.S. bank accounts BEFORE you move and have multiple BACKUP plans. I've been here a long time. I did that and have lost use of the majority of the accounts I opened before moving here. If I had not, I would be screwed. If I lose more, I can still be screwed. Opening U.S. accounts after already being an expat is not something that can be normally done. 

 I've been with Chase since 1994 and was working and/or living overseas from 1960 to 2015, but not continuously. Long story short, I am American, and  sometimes I spent a year or so back in the States, and naturally my wife (a foreign national) and I needed a bank account. I opened Chase accounts in Houston in 1994 while residing there for a year and owning a house. Then I used Chase online (and also the Vanguard investment firm) for 20 years from West Africa, the Emirates and Saudi Arabia and never had a problem. I also had local bank accounts in Saudi and Dubai, of course. Stateside, Chase customer service has been outstanding in the branches where I've physically walked in, in Jersey, Houston and Boise. Their accounts management website is excellent as well. An officer even gave me a free half hour of advice on asset management, not trying to sell me any Chase products but just to maintain the banking relationship--and I'm no Warren Buffet, I can tell you that. Naturally, I continue to be a Chase customer.

[daij1944]

many thanks to everyone. does anyone have any idea why the wire transfer might have triggered the freeze? 

[theguyfromanotherforum]

1 minute ago, daij1944 said:

many thanks to everyone. does anyone have any idea why the wire transfer might have triggered the freeze? 

 

It doesn't matter. Some noob flagged your account and that's all that matters.

 

Btw, the exact same thing happened to me in November and I am pretty sure I posted about it here.

 

I am a Canadian, but have a BMO Harris account in Chicago. They never told me why they froze my account, but I think it was because I was withdrawing money from Thailand. I begged them to reopen it the only way was to see a branch manager in Chicago. Now, imagine explaining to U.S. border agency the reason why a Canadian who lives in Thailand wants to visit USA.

 

At the end I flew back to Canada and found a very nice lady at BMO Canada branch who made a few calls (that lasted 3 days) and got my account back.

 

You will most likely have no other choice, but next time I recommend you make a friend at the branch who can vouch for you and save yourself a very expensive trip.

[James2020]

I can't help the OP with his situation either, but some general advice relating to this:  I have several accounts with Vanguard, and I saved the email that explained as long as I opened them while still a US resident, it was fine, but I would be unable to open new accounts when I changed my residency to Thailand.  I went ahead and changed my address to Thailand, and other than a technical glitch with them accepting my Thailand address on their website, all has been fine.  My small US bank told me (I saved that email too) that I could keep my account, or open new ones, regardless of where I lived, so I changed my address on the account to Thailand, and have had no problems.  I changed to my Thailand address on all 3 US based credit cards.  The only problem has been that two merchants won't accept them on their websites with a foreign address (VRBO and Uber, although Grab Taxi just did, as well as a number of others).  I have a Thai driver's license, which will work with National to rent a car in the US - I verified it.  I just submitted my tax returns with my Thailand address.  So, I've had no real problem letting everyone know that I have moved to Thailand, and have no address in the US any longer - easier for me to be truthful.   I do everything online now.  Social Security is the only agency that I've found that requires a US address, but I can still collect payments to my US bank account.  I use my son's address for Social Security because it's easy, but I assume I could use my attorney or a commercial mail forwarder as well. 

[ThaiWai]

I went through this with them. It's insanity. I rented my NY apartment out and when the deposit was transferred into my account they froze everything. The said the same thing "have the renter stop by a branch and show ID". He lived in Maryland the nearest branch was Delaware. I luckily had established a freindly relationship with my local branch manager and went in to ask for help. She even as the manager had to be and plead with bank security to unlock my accounts. Problem solved? Nope. For the next three years every month when my tenant wired in his rent it froze my account for three days. 100% retarded. A gave a family member power of attorney before I left to handle business matters in my absence. She tried to just deposit a check into my account and the bank refused until the power of attorney was presented. They are serious tight asses at Chase. My guess is the second you mention Thailand you will be permanently screwed. My advice is do what I did with the branch manager when you get there.  Even bring a little gift and introduce yourself. Anything that helps them remember you.  Tell them you are often overseas and want them to know who you are when you call with an issue.  Charles Schwabb was another pain for me. I tried to open the account from here and they flagged me under the Patriot Act. Had to visit them in person when back in the states. When I got there they denied the incident ever took place and said they had no record of it and said I could have opened the account online without issue. They opened the account. I got back to Thailand and tried the atm card. They locked the account and said I need to stop in with ID again. The problem is they never consider for a second that someone would chose to live outside the USA. They could easily setup Skype service with facial recognition but again they never think they would need it. 

[smotherb]

19 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Not to you, no.

I would be very surprised if you can fix this without doing exactly what they told you would fix it, and nothing short of that.

But good luck.

 

I can post something to future expats. Be paranoid because U.S. financial institutions really don't like expats. Open multiple U.S. bank accounts BEFORE you move and have multiple BACKUP plans. I've been here a long time. I did that and have lost use of the majority of the accounts I opened before moving here. If I had not, I would be screwed. If I lose more, I can still be screwed. Opening U.S. accounts after already being an expat is not something that can be normally done. 

I have been an expat for over 50 years and I use US financial institutions and have had only one problem; most US banks expect a US phone number in the 3-3-4 number format, but I have been able to get them to work around that problem. In fact, I received better service from US banks than international banks, until about 10 years ago--I have used an investment firm for over forty years and a company credit union for thirty years; I could simply call either of them at the start of their business day and have money sent anywhere that day, with little or no fees. However, the investment firm reorganized and made things more difficult while my friend, the manager of the credit union, retired and his successor cleaned house and stiffened their rules. However, I still get money transfers with a phone call through the investment firm; although it may take a few days, and they reimburse any ATM fees.

 

I think it may be more appropriate to say, US financial institutions don't really understand expats.

[drtreelove]

28 minutes ago, daij1944 said:

many thanks to everyone. does anyone have any idea why the wire transfer might have triggered the freeze? 

The same thing happened to me with Chase. Still don't know why exactly, but any activity that is unusual for your account may trigger a fraud alert. I've had two major problems with Chase wire transfers. Other services have been ok.  . 

Going to a branch was not an option for me, but I was able to get the account block cleared by phone. Don't attempt with email or online secure messages. 

The fraud department can clear it if you can talk to them directly and have all  your security ID information ready. Try one of these numbers,  and don't waste your breath until you get to the fraud dept. they are the ones who intitated the block and they are the only ones who can be convinced to clear it.  1–800–935–9935  1–713–262–3300 (outside the U.S.)

[Tbone999]

There a Chase branch in Bangkok, can't you go there and present your ID? They did say any branch?

[new2here]

I've had this (similar) and had to work through it as well. It did end up being an in-person visit, but allowed me to set-up a workaround for any future occurrences.

My own experience and that of close friends is that when you start to use the card for cash and cash-like transactions, that's when closer scrutiny of you, your account, your profile, etc, tends to come into play. Again, my experience.

The cash-like issue is, as I know it, can in some cases, be tied to the larger issue of "MSing" or manufactured spending... which some issuers take a very dim view of, while others seem to take a more permissive view.

Given the size and transaction volume that an issue like Chase sees and processes daily, I'm pretty comfortable that it's not a human at all who "flags" the account, but is triggered by programmatic algorithms. It may be that after flagging by the system, a human might need to review the flag and either choose to retain it, modify it or release it outright.

I don't think that there is any bias or "hate" towards expats at all - in some cases that can be a quite profitable customer niche -- but simply how the bank has their security protocols set up and the current threat environment that the bank experiences or expects.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[Thaidream]

I am also a Chase customer for over 20 years with a US address by mostly residing in Thailand. No problems except once accounts were blocked by the 'fraud department' for 'unusual activity'.  I believe I used an ATM in another location and their fraud department picked up on it.

To clear everything- I called 1-800-935-9935 which is Chase  Customer Service- and asked for the fraud department (open 24/7).  Had a lengthy conversation providing a lot of security info- address; social security; ATM card numbers and security codes on back.  They cleared the block immediately and informed me to try and use ATMS in the same locale in the future-never had a problem after that.

 

I also believe that wire transfers trigger an alert . I was told by Chase that unless one is in the US and makes their first transfer from a bank and showing ID- it will be rejected. Have never made any but I would guess based upon the posters that is a common reason.

 

The Frad Department is open 24 hours -give them a try and let us know the result.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

20 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Not to you, no.

I would be very surprised if you can fix this without doing exactly what they told you would fix it, and nothing short of that.

But good luck.

 

I can post something to future expats. Be paranoid because U.S. financial institutions really don't like expats. Open multiple U.S. bank accounts BEFORE you move and have multiple BACKUP plans. I've been here a long time. I did that and have lost use of the majority of the accounts I opened before moving here. If I had not, I would be screwed. If I lose more, I can still be screwed. Opening U.S. accounts after already being an expat is not something that can be normally done. 

 

I totally agree with Jing's advice about the value of having multiple U.S. bank accounts opened and in place before becoming an expat.

 

However, I'll disagree a bit on the ability to open new accounts with U.S. banks once you're already an expat. The keys to being able to do so, in my experience, are maintaining certain elements of U.S. residency:

-- a U.S. address/mailing address that you can use for all your U.S. bank accounts,

-- a valid state driver's license or state ID card, best if its address matches your mailing address,

-- and a valid U.S. phone number, especially a mobile that can receive U.S. text message.

 

If you have all those, the new bank accounts issue can be managed.

 

I know some get away with it, but I would NEVER use a Thai mailing address or Thai mobile phone number in connection with any U.S. banking business. To do so is only inviting future trouble at some point.

 

Also, try as much as possible to keep any foreign financial/banking activity entirely separate from your U.S. bank accounts.

 

And as LSM mentioned above, best to use a U.S. VPN connection for any and all online banking log-ins.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Thaidream]

I agree that it is not a human at all that flags accounts but a computer program. I called Chase several months ago to raise my daily ATM limit and was told by the customer service that I had to  verify my identity by putting certain info into their computer bank which I was able to do.  One one ATM card -the computer rejected the ATM raise as the clerk said their ATM security system indicated I did not have enough income placed in that account on average. However, on my main account- it allowed the raise . There is definitely some type of computer generated system that triggers these alerts and in the case of the OP I believe it wa the attempt of wire transfer.

[daij1944]

fraud was closed according to the lady i just spoke to at 713–262–3300 (at least for me). will try them again tomorrow). yes! there is a chase in bangkok (i had been told there wasn't but even a web search would have shown it). i have some money squirreled away in other banks but chase handled all my automated payments so it's very tough on me if they won't honor those payments. AND yes, i will make friends at my bank when i go back. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 minutes ago, daij1944 said:

fraud was closed according to the lady i just spoke to at 713–262–3300 (at least for me). will try them again tomorrow). yes! there is a chase in bangkok (i had been told there wasn't but even a web search would have shown it). i have some money squirreled away in other banks but chase handled all my automated payments so it's very tough on me if they won't honor those payments. AND yes, i will make friends at my bank when i go back. 

 

Did Chase freeze your accounts because of a fraud alert,  or something else? What exactly did they communicate to you as to why?

 

And the wire transfer you mentioned, was either end of that going to/from a foreign account, or it was all U.S. to U.S.?

 

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[daij1944]

here's a related issue: do i take this personally? am i wasting my time looking for better service elsewhere or should i just knuckle under and schmooze the people who work there?

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by daij1944

[daij1944]

they wouldn't tell me why but it happened as i got an email that my wire transfer was rejected

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 minutes ago, daij1944 said:

they wouldn't tell me why but it happened as i got an email that my wire transfer was rejected

 

Was the wire transfer U.S. to U.S., or was it coming from or going to a foreign account?

 

[daij1944]

wire transfer was within the us (california to michigan) BUT i have a virtual phone not a "real" one. i am fairly sure (not 100%) that i was using a vpn at the time.

[new2here]

here's a related issue: do i take this personally? am i wasting my time looking for better service elsewhere or should i just knuckle under and schmooze the people who work there?
 

To me, unless the situation that you're in now - being an overseas customer - is always (for the foreseeable future) going to be an ongoing issue to the bank, then Id probably try to stay with them and leverage your past relationship with them, to overcome future problems.

I'm not against trying someone new, but my feeling is (only my feeling) that for the foreseeable future, being an overseas customer will always present an increased level of account use and customer profile scrutiny - and in that respect IMHO having some measure of "history" with the bank (usually) works for you, and not against you.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Thaidream]

I believe the issue on a wire transfer is that the account is US Bank to Us Bank but the security system picks up the fact that it is being done via a foreign VPN and triggers the alert or the security code that is sent is responded back via a phone they do not recognize.  Something happened that was out of the ordinary that triggered the alert.

I am really surprised the fraud or security department is closed-  you might try  1-800-935-9935 and tell them you need to speak to security department. The Chase Customer Service is in the Philippines after hours but the Security Department is in the US

Edited April 1, 2018 by Thaidream

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 minutes ago, daij1944 said:

here's a related issue: do i take this personally? am i wasting my time looking for better service elsewhere or should i just knuckle under and schmooze the people who work there?

 

 

In general, as an expat, I'd say you're likely to get better service, better account deals, fewer fees and less hassles from a local/regional bank or credit union -- including a few that are particularly expat friendly -- as opposed to dealing with the mega U.S. banks -- BofA, Chase, Citi, Wells, etc.

 

Also, you can open a free checking account at Charles Schwab -- which comes with a brokerage account, that you don't have to use or even fund. The Schwab debit card has a $1000 daily withdrawal limit, Schwab offers free in and outbound ACH transfers to pretty much any other U.S. banking entity, no foreign currency fee on purchases or withdrawals, and foreign ATM fees reimbursed monthly. No minimum balance or account activity requirements.

 

When was the last time you got any of that from BofA, Citi, Chase, Wells, etc.

 

Pentagon Federal Credit Union is very good, especially for their credit cards and CDs, and you don't have to be a military person. USAA is good also, and both are expat friendly. There are others.

 

 

[geriatrickid]

1 hour ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

 

It doesn't matter. Some noob flagged your account and that's all that matters.

 

Btw, the exact same thing happened to me in November and I am pretty sure I posted about it here.

 

I am a Canadian, but have a BMO Harris account in Chicago. They never told me why they froze my account, but I think it was because I was withdrawing money from Thailand. I begged them to reopen it the only way was to see a branch manager in Chicago. Now, imagine explaining to U.S. border agency the reason why a Canadian who lives in Thailand wants to visit USA.

 

At the end I flew back to Canada and found a very nice lady at BMO Canada branch who made a few calls (that lasted 3 days) and got my account back.

 

You will most likely have no other choice, but next time I recommend you make a friend at the branch who can vouch for you and save yourself a very expensive trip.

BMO Harris is the private banking arm of BMO. When Harris was purchased out of Chicago it was to expand the US operations. I am told that BMO Harris is subject to additional US banking compliance regulations. I noticed that BMO  changed its Thai correspondent bank from  SCB to Bangkok Bank  two years ago. No idea why. 

If you ever get jammed up again you can consider the dismal Scotia Bank. It owns a large part of Thailand's Thanachart Bank.