Britain and Russia lock horns as Moscow cuts UK diplomats

[rooster59]

Britain and Russia lock horns as Moscow cuts UK diplomats

By Andrew Osborn

 

A general view shows the headquarters of the Russian Foreign Ministry in Moscow, Russia March 29, 2018. REUTERS/Sergei Karpukhin

 

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Moscow has told Britain it must cut just over 50 more of its diplomatic and technical staff in Russia as a standoff deepened over the poisoning of a Russian former spy and his daughter in England, the Russian Foreign Ministry said on Saturday.

 

Moscow also demanded an official explanation for the search of a Russian passenger plane in London, saying it reserved the right to act similarly against British airlines in Russia. Britain said the search was routine.

 

Russia advised its citizens to think carefully before travelling to Britain, warning they could fall victim to official harassment.

 

More than 100 Russian diplomats have been expelled by Western countries, including 23 from Britain, to punish the Kremlin over the March 4 attack on Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in the historic English city of Salisbury.

 

London says Moscow was responsible for the first known use of a military-grade nerve agent on European soil since World War Two, and Britain's defence minister on Saturday said it was "heartening" to see the backing of international allies.

 

"The world's patience with Putin's repeated pattern of malign behaviour has worn thin," Gavin Williamson wrote in a newspaper column, urging that Britain's defence capabilities needed to keep better step with Russia's broadening tactics.

 

Russia denies responsibility for the attack. It has cast the allegations as a Western plot to sabotage East-West relations and isolate Moscow.

 

Russia had already retaliated in kind by ejecting 23 British diplomats. On Friday, the Foreign Ministry summoned British Ambassador Laurie Bristow and told him London had one month to further cut its diplomatic contingent in Russia to the same size as the Russian mission in Britain. It also expelled 59 diplomats from 23 other countries for backing Britain.

 

A spokeswoman for Britain's Foreign Office called the Russian move regrettable, and said it was considering the implications of the measures. She did not say how many diplomatic staff in Russia would be affected, while the British Embassy in Moscow says it does not make staff numbers public.

 

But Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said the demand meant Britain would have to cut "a little over 50" more of its diplomatic and technical staff in Russia on top of the 23 diplomats who have already gone home.

 

"We asked for parity. The Brits have 50 diplomats more than the Russians," Zakharova said on Saturday.

 

Asked if that meant London would now have to cut exactly 50 diplomatic and technical staff, she said: "A little over 50."

 

RUSSIAN TRAVEL WARNING

 

The Russian Foreign Ministry later published a list of 14 questions its London embassy had sent Britain's Foreign Office. It included queries about why Russia had been denied consular access to the Skripals and about France's role in the case.

 

In a move underlining the serious nature of the diplomatic crisis, the Russian Embassy also advised Russians to think twice before travelling to Britain, warning of rising anti-Russian sentiment and possible harassment from the authorities, including the risk of objects being planted in their luggage.

 

"We can't rule out increased attention by British law enforcement agencies and intelligence services to Russian passport holders," the embassy said in a statement.

 

Russia's Ministry of Transport meanwhile demanded Britain explain an Aeroflot airliner was searched at Heathrow Airport on Friday, in what the Russian Embassy in London called a "blatant provocation".

 

Britain disagreed with that assessment.

 

"It is routine for (Britain's border agency) to search aircraft to protect the UK from organised crime and from those who attempt to bring harmful substances like drugs or firearms into the country," Security Minister Ben Wallace said.

 

The Russian Embassy said Wallace's logic was "difficult to comprehend" and only amplified its doubts about the incident.

 

Britain's Foreign Office also said on Saturday it was considering allowing visits under consular access terms to Yulia Skripal, who is recovering in hospital against all expectations and is no longer in critical condition.

 

Russia's embassy said that it had contacted Viktoria Skripal, Yulia's cousin. "Upon receiving confirmation that Yulia Skripal's condition is getting better and she is able to communicate, she said she would like to go to London and to visit her cousin," the embassy said.

 

The BBC reported on Friday that Yulia was "conscious and talking," which may help the investigation of how she and her father were poisoned.

 

The poisoning on British territory has united much of the West in taking action against what it regards as the hostile policies of President Vladimir Putin. This includes the United States under President Donald Trump, whom Putin had hoped would improve ties.

 

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-04-01

[Samui Bodoh]

The Russians use chemical weapons on the streets of the UK and then whinge that they aren't being treated fairly.

 

Putin's Russia has clearly become a clear and present danger to the West; it is time to consider tossing them out of Western institutions and/or mechanisms (the banking network for a start) until they can behave in a civilized manner.

 

Enough of that spoiled little man.

 

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, rooster59 said:

"The world's patience with Putin's repeated pattern of malign behaviour has worn thin," Gavin Williamson wrote in a newspaper column, urging that Britain's defence capabilities needed to keep better step with Russia's broadening tactics.

 

Russia denies responsibility for the attack. It has cast the allegations as a Western plot to sabotage East-West relations and isolate Moscow.

Years of Putin's efforts to divide the west has not gone unnoticed. It's not just the latest attacks, but the whole lot of things, which have now gotten a reaction from the west. 

 

Russia has been sponsoring groups in Europe from right and left, who wish to dismantle the EU and cause disunity within countries and within EU5.

 

Russia's military planes has been flying inside independent countries airspace. 

 

Let's also not forget MH 17, which Russia shoot down. Or Crimea and what is now happening in the Eastern Ukraine.

 

If Russia doesn't want to behave in a proper manner with its neighbours, perhaps Russia should close it's borders and play with itself. 

 

It's funny, that virtually all the Russian neighbours wish to be part of NATO, and not part of whatever Russia today is. 

[Anak Nakal]

Putin is same as Kim jon ung!

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, Samui Bodoh said:

The Russians use chemical weapons on the streets of the UK and then whinge that they aren't being treated fairly.

 

Putin's Russia has clearly become a clear and present danger to the West; it is time to consider tossing them out of Western institutions and/or mechanisms (the banking network for a start) until they can behave in a civilized manner.

 

Enough of that spoiled little man.

 

Where is the proof?

[klauskunkel]

2 hours ago, rooster59 said:

"It is routine for (Britain's border agency) to search aircraft to protect the UK from organised crime and from those who attempt to bring harmful substances like drugs or firearms into the country," Security Minister Ben Wallace said.

 

The Russian Embassy said Wallace's logic was "difficult to comprehend"

If the Russian Embassy has difficulties in comprehension I suggest for them replace their current staff with people that have a higher IQ.

[metisdead]

An off topic trolling post has been removed as well as the reply. 

[stevenl]

5 hours ago, oilinki said:

Years of Putin's efforts to divide the west has not gone unnoticed. It's not just the latest attacks, but the whole lot of things, which have now gotten a reaction from the west. 

 

Russia has been sponsoring groups in Europe from right and left, who wish to dismantle the EU and cause disunity within countries and within EU5.

 

Russia's military planes has been flying inside independent countries airspace. 

 

Let's also not forget MH 17, which Russia shoot down. Or Crimea and what is now happening in the Eastern Ukraine.

 

If Russia doesn't want to behave in a proper manner with its neighbours, perhaps Russia should close it's borders and play with itself. 

 

It's funny, that virtually all the Russian neighbours wish to be part of NATO, and not part of whatever Russia today is. 

MH17 was downed by Ukrainians. Yes, they did use Russian weaponary, but doubtful a passengerplane was the intended target, and even more doubtful Russia knew about this.

 

While I agree with the rest of your post, MH17 should not be mentioned here, except of course in the refusal of the Russians to give access to materials they have regarding this topic and their refusal to co-operate.

[dunroaming]

13 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

The Russians use chemical weapons on the streets of the UK and then whinge that they aren't being treated fairly.

 

Putin's Russia has clearly become a clear and present danger to the West; it is time to consider tossing them out of Western institutions and/or mechanisms (the banking network for a start) until they can behave in a civilized manner.

 

Enough of that spoiled little man.

 

I agree with the sentiment but the world doesn't work like that. Russia is an integral part of the economic structure.

[KKr]

Never mind all the fingers pointing, I think that IF Russian operatives planted a substance that allegedly is a Russia produced poisonous agent, they would not have bodged it up. 
Apart from a published opinion turned into mass hysteria, where is the proof ?
Has there been an independent analysis of the substance or is there other substantial non-circumstantial evidence ?

[Topdoc]

Listen to what Tony Kevin says.

Tony Kevin is a former Australian ambassador to Poland & Cambodia

 

[KKr]

Quite.

remember 1914's hyped up message, read without punctuation at an aggressive intonation?
or the Liberation of Tibet ? " to expel the foreign occupants " 
(if the movie is not incorrectly reflecting the events, that is )

[maxcorrigan]

13 hours ago, KKr said:

Never mind all the fingers pointing, I think that IF Russian operatives planted a substance that allegedly is a Russia produced poisonous agent, they would not have bodged it up. 
Apart from a published opinion turned into mass hysteria, where is the proof ?
Has there been an independent analysis of the substance or is there other substantial non-circumstantial evidence ?

I believe there was a test done, at Portland Down that said it was not Russian, maybe somebody on TV knows more about this!

[Yann55]

 

Thank you Topdoc for the interesting input.

 

We Westerners all too often forget that propaganda and opinion manipulation exist not only in totalitarian regimes but are alive and well in ours too, thanks to our 'communication specialists'.

 

So much so that my bs-alert light always starts flashing wildly whenever there is a 'Western media (and/or political) consensus' over a topic or a person.

 

That's probably because we think of propaganda as something easy to spot, and believe our minds to be alert enough. But since Dr Goebbels turned it into a science,  propaganda has gone a long way, and the country who did the most to refine it into a subtle and highly precise tool is the one where the President is all too often called the "Leader of the Free World"...

 

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Yann55

[Morch]

 

@Topdoc

 

So, basically he says Putin is a great guy, and Western intelligence services are evil. Russia ain't doing no wrong, and it's all a conspiracy by unnamed Western players. Cool story.

 

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Yann55 said:

 

Thank you Topdoc for the interesting input.

 

We Westerners all too often forget that propaganda and opinion manipulation exist not only in totalitarian regimes but are alive and well in ours too, thanks to our 'communication specialists'.

 

So much so that my bs-alert light always starts flashing wildly whenever there is a 'Western media (and/or political) consensus' over a topic or a person.

 

That's probably because we think of propaganda as something easy to spot, and believe our minds to be alert enough. But since Dr Goebbels turned it into a science,  propaganda has gone a long way, and the country who did the most to refine it into a subtle and highly precise tool is the one where the President is all too often called the "Leader of the Free World"...

 

 

 

I don't know that you speak for any "we", but alright... Perhaps is it also a bit of "We Westerners" being, through our democratic systems and (yeah yeah....relative) freedoms, more susceptible to self-doubt. There's something to be said for a cigar sometimes being just a cigar.

 

Also, "We" perhaps tend to forget that our media sources are way more open to outside propaganda, and that denying it or not, there's quite a bit of exploiting that going on.

 

Keeping a critical attitude ain't bad. Letting it become an obsession doubting everything is a different matter. Making the extra step of bestowing righteousness on the "opposition" - meh.

[KKr]

7 hours ago, Morch said:

 

@Topdoc

 

So, basically he says Putin is a great guy, and Western intelligence services are evil. Russia ain't doing no wrong, and it's all a conspiracy by unnamed Western players. Cool story.

 

 

@TopDoc's post I interpreted as no-one being guilty until proven and found guilty in a court of Law.
(what the House of Parliament, a newspaper  or TV is not.)
 

[stevenl]

13 minutes ago, KKr said:

@TopDoc's post I interpreted as no-one being guilty until proven and found guilty in a court of Law.
(what the House of Parliament, a newspaper  or TV is not.)
 

Which doesn't happen in cases like this. Like it or not, this is really dependent on the intelligence services.

[Morch]

57 minutes ago, KKr said:

@TopDoc's post I interpreted as no-one being guilty until proven and found guilty in a court of Law.
(what the House of Parliament, a newspaper  or TV is not.)
 

 

Tony Kevin (the guy interviewed) doesn't say that, though. He expands on Western intelligence/powers possible responsibility, while essentially giving Russia a free pass (while going on about how great Putin is).

[KKr]

11 hours ago, stevenl said:

Which doesn't happen in cases like this. Like it or not, this is really dependent on the intelligence services.

indeed, we may never know who did it, or why.

[stevenl]

19 minutes ago, KKr said:

indeed, we may never know who did it, or why.

Disagree with you, I think we already know who did it.

[Basil B]

18 hours ago, KKr said:

@TopDoc's post I interpreted as no-one being guilty until proven and found guilty in a court of Law.
(what the House of Parliament, a newspaper  or TV is not.)
 

So what court has the power to summons Putin & Russia to face a trial... 

 

One really has to consider that this was not the first time Russia (or the former Soviet Union)... has murdered or tried to murder dissidents, former spys, people who do not agree with them.

 

Names that come to mind: 

• dissident and BBC journalist Georgi Markov
• former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko 
• Ukraine's former president Viktor Yushchenko

There are other names, time to put an end to the murdering of people by a state in other sovereign states, if that means cutting off all diplomatic ties, pulling out of the World Cup, and other sporting events, so be it.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, Basil B said:

So what court has the power to summons Putin & Russia to face a trial... 

 

One really has to consider that this was not the first time Russia (or the former Soviet Union)... has murdered or tried to murder dissidents, former spys, people who do not agree with them.

 

Names that come to mind: 

• dissident and BBC journalist Georgi Markov
• former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko 
• Ukraine's former president Viktor Yushchenko

There are other names, time to put an end to the murdering of people by a state in other sovereign states, if that means cutting off all diplomatic ties, pulling out of the World Cup, and other sporting events, so be it.

 

No need to go that far - I think Russian law does not allow such for even lower rung operatives.

[Thongkorn]

On 01/04/2018 at 9:06 PM, KKr said:

Never mind all the fingers pointing, I think that IF Russian operatives planted a substance that allegedly is a Russia produced poisonous agent, they would not have bodged it up. 
Apart from a published opinion turned into mass hysteria, where is the proof ?
Has there been an independent analysis of the substance or is there other substantial non-circumstantial evidence ?

And I think that if the British Govenment make an accusation it is nearly always backed up with proof. Or substantial evedence. Britain has made big mistakes in the near past. 

[maximillian]

13 hours ago, Thongkorn said:

And I think that if the British Government makes an accusation it is nearly always backed up with proof. Or substantial evidence. Britain has made big mistakes in the near past. 

 

"Britain has made big mistakes in the near past."

 

Indeed, Britain has.

Edited April 4, 2018 by maximillian

[KKr]

14 hours ago, Thongkorn said:

And I think that if the British Govenment make an accusation it is nearly always backed up with proof. Or substantial evedence. Britain has made big mistakes in the near past. 

UK military research boss says unable to say yet whether nerve agent was made in Russia - Sky
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-russia-nerve-agent/uk-military-research-boss-says-unable-to-say-yet-whether-nerve-agent-was-made-in-russia-sky-idUKKCN1HA1Y9

remarkable that this officer goes public with this, jeopardizing his career in distancing himself from the political mayhem created. 
Between the lines I read: the Russia accusation is politically driven, maybe backed some intelligence (whatever that means as proof) but not substantiated by evidence

[rockingrobin]

11 minutes ago, KKr said:

UK military research boss says unable to say yet whether nerve agent was made in Russia - Sky
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-russia-nerve-agent/uk-military-research-boss-says-unable-to-say-yet-whether-nerve-agent-was-made-in-russia-sky-idUKKCN1HA1Y9

remarkable that this officer goes public with this, jeopardizing his career in distancing himself from the political mayhem created. 
Between the lines I read: the Russia accusation is politically driven, maybe backed some intelligence (whatever that means as proof) but not substantiated by evidence

He does more than that

In the full interview , he states that they were able to identify it as being Novichok or part of its family.

He also states that it is highly toxic and he is unaware of any antidote

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, KKr said:

Between the lines I read: the Russia accusation is politically driven, maybe backed some intelligence (whatever that means as proof) but not substantiated by evidence

No. Between the lines: The west is tired of Russia's stupid games and wish to put the end to it.

 

It's very difficult to determine where one substance was made. That's only one part of the case. There are Putin's comments what happens to the spies, who let down Russia etc.

 

Perhaps Russia should build a wall, to separate it further from co-operation with the western world. I'm sure loads of Putinists would love the idea.

[Morch]

20 minutes ago, KKr said:

UK military research boss says unable to say yet whether nerve agent was made in Russia - Sky
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-russia-nerve-agent/uk-military-research-boss-says-unable-to-say-yet-whether-nerve-agent-was-made-in-russia-sky-idUKKCN1HA1Y9

remarkable that this officer goes public with this, jeopardizing his career in distancing himself from the political mayhem created. 
Between the lines I read: the Russia accusation is politically driven, maybe backed some intelligence (whatever that means as proof) but not substantiated by evidence

 

How is he "jeopardizing his career"? This ain't Thailand.

As for "reading between the lines" - more like creative over-interpretation. He says what he says. That you somehow consider "intelligence" to be different to "evidence" is meaningless.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Morch