Is it possible to naturalise a child with foreign parents who was born in Thailand?

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

Hello everyone,

I am a new member on TV, but have been an avid reader for many months. I have checked the forums on here before many times when trying to get an answer to a simple query or to gauge the situation regarding a variety of issues, based on the considerable combined knowledge and experience of the expat members of TV. So, now I have a question of my own to field to anyone who is able to help.

 

My issue is reasonably complicated and, I think, quite unusual.

 

I will try my best to put it as simply as possible.

 

------------------------

 

I am looking to make my daughter a Thai ID card if possible, and then of course - a Thai passport. The situation is this: 

 

- She was born here in Kanchanaburi, Thailand in 2012, at the Kburi City hospital where her birth was of course registered, with mine and my girlfriend's names being recorded on the birth cert. at that time. 

- She is also included on my girlfriend's tabien baan (residence booklet)    

- She has attended a private Thai school in Bangkok for the past 2 years

 

She has yet to leave the country however, and this is where the issue lies.

 

I want to make her a Thai ID card if possible, and then of course - a Thai passport to leave Thailand on later this year. The problem with doing so is this: her mother is not technically Thai (she is a Burmese citizen who has lived in Thailand for more than 30 years in the Thong Pa Phum district of Kanchanaburi province where many displaced Mon/Burman and Thai/Burmese mixed peoples have settled over the last 4 decades and more). My gf has never been able to qualify for a Thai ID for a number of reasons, and was technically stateless until about 3 years ago when she applied for a Burmese passport, at my suggestion, which she received soon after. She and her family have, however, lived in Thailand full time for over 30 years, in Kanchanaburi, where they have a smallholding. My gf has a work visa and works in Bangkok without issue, she also has the pink ID card, which is not a full ID, but a permanent residence card - this doesn't afford her the same rights as a normal ID card does, chief among which being the inability to apply for a passport.

 

The fact that she is not technically Thai (although she has lived in the country for over 30 years and was schooled here) and that I myself am a British citizen and ex-patriot working here, means that although my daughter will qualify for a British passport, she will not (easily) qualify for a Thai passport. This is infuriating, to put it mildly, as she was born and has grown up here and is at school in Bangkok as I type. It's a real catch 22 situation, and representative of the flaws in the system here, in that there isn't really an issue for us until we leave the country, she can remain and go to school here for the time being without any problem, BUT, when we do go to leave the country on a planned trip to the UK later this year, she will not have a Thai passport to exit on, but only a British one, that I'm in the process of making for her now. This in itself may present a problem, but returning on a British passport will mean I'll have to prepare either a guardian visa or something similar for her to present on entry to Thailand.

 

I have contacted the partner of a friend here in BKK who is lawyer and so far she has not been able to assist satisfactorily, but I remain hopeful that she'll be able to help or refer us to someone who can in due course. In the meantime, I would appreciate any suggestions on what my best option might be and if anyone knows of the relevant agencies to contact or has had any similar experience themselves or knows of others who have, their input would be most welcomed.

 

It's a slightly unusual situation, but I imagine it can't be unique, given the amount of mixed-race relationships and children here in Thailand.

 

*Before anyone inquires or suggests - I have contacted the British embassy about this and they have been utterly useless, as dealing with such things is apparently well outside their remit, we have had similar results when speaking with local government in Kburi*

 

Anyway, I would greatly appreciate any informed advice or suggestions from those of you who have any experience or knowledge in this area.

 

Sincere thanks in advance.

G -

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sanemax]

It was announced last year that Thailand wants to end statelessness and will give Thai I.D to all stateless kids who were born in Thailand , went to school there and have never been out of Thailand and have no affiliation to any other Country (passport, nationality)

    Getting your kid a UK PP may make her ineligible to receive Thai I.D

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

Interesting, thanks for that information. I don't know which bureau I would need to contact about organising her an ID though. I guess I can ask my lawyer contact to look in to this for me as she is Thai and probably has a better idea of where & who to submit a query to. 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

https://www.benarnews.org/english/news/thai/stateless-12302016172431.html - just found this link and will contact the Ministry of Interior though my legal contact asap.

[jvs]

Well the mother now has a Burmese passport?Does this mean the child is considered Burmese?Also a Britisch father will qualify the child for a UK passport?

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

Hi, 

Technically our daughter could qualify for a Burmese passport yes, but we'd rather she have a Thai ID / passport as Thailand is where we live and where my girlfriend's family and roots are. She is a Thai speaker and has lived in TH for 32 out of her 37 years on this planet. Our daughter currently has no ID or passport, but will qualify for a British passport, this doesn't really resolve the issue as I stated above in my initial post. The fact that Thailand has announced a drive to end the existence of stateless children in the country is promising, but there are a few pre-requisites that sound like they might not go in our favour, from a cursory read about the situation. MoI will be my next port of call anyhow.

[sanemax]

6 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

https://www.benarnews.org/english/news/thai/stateless-12302016172431.html - just found this link and will contact the Ministry of Interior though my legal contact asap.

I am in a similar situation , I have a four year old stateless son .

His 13 year old Cousin is also stateless and is currently in the process of getting Thai I.D. (She is also half felang)

   I am concerned that if the Thai authorities realise that my boy is British , they may tell him to get a UK PP and not give him Thai citizenship .

   So, I am letting my boys mum deal with the issue and I'm staying in the back ground

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

I see, so you're in a similar situation to me then. Where is your partner from? If you're son is under 10, which he is (as is my daughter) I wonder if this will really affect the ability to be granted Thai ID. Where is your partner / her niece enquiring about the ID? Ministry of Interior?

[sanemax]

8 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

I see, so you're in a similar situation to me then. Where is your partner from? If you're son is under 10, which he is (as is my daughter) I wonder if this will really affect the ability to be granted Thai ID. Where is your partner / her niece enquiring about the ID? Ministry of Interior?

My Mrs was born in Thailand to Burmese Parents .

The problem with getting your Daughter a UK PP and taking her out of Thailand , she would lose her legal right to remain in Thailand and you would have to get her Thai visas and keep them up to date (or go on overstay).

    It could also leave her open to deportation to the UK when she gets to 20 years old (If she doesnt get Thai I.D) .

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

This is the issue, it's ridiculous too. She could remain here on some kind of visa I would imagine, but I need to speak to people in the know - the correct government agency. Is your wife in contact with the Ministry of Interior re: your son's ID? I'm guessing she herself is also a Burmese citizen / passport holder?

[sanemax]

Just now, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

This is the issue, it's ridiculous too. She could remain here on some kind of visa I would imagine, but I need to speak to people in the know - the correct government agency. Is your wife in contact with the Ministry of Interior re: your son's ID? I'm guessing she herself is also a Burmese citizen / passport holder?

My Mrs doesnt have I.D from anywhere , I dont know who She is dealing with about the issue . My Mrs also cannot get Burmese I.D

   Once your daughter leaves Thailand , she will lose her right to remain in Thailand .

[Megasin1]

I am no expert on obtaining a thai ID card, so probably not very helpful other than to say I certainly hope you have success and wish you all the best and that once you have them you should certainly follow through with her British and Burmese passports, there is nothing better you could do for her than keep her options open, have you, in the first instance, just tried applying with her birth certificate? and also isn't she a little young? I don't think my thai daughter got her id card until she was about 8

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

Quote

I am no expert on obtaining a thai ID card, so probably not very helpful other than to say I certainly hope you have success and wish you all the best and that once you have them you should certainly follow through with her British and Burmese passports, there is nothing better you could do for her than keep her options open, have you, in the first instance, just tried applying with her birth certificate? and also isn't she a little young? I don't think my thai daughter got her id card until she was about 8

Thanks for your kind words. I have enquired through a legal contact as I have mentioned, but have not yet contacted the MoI, but now that I have looked into it a little more, I certainly will do. It could be that she will qualify for a passport (if not an ID card) already, but given that neither her mother or myself are Thai nationals, I find it unlikely. I have a friend who acquired a Thai passport for his son who was 2 years old at the time, so I'm pretty sure it's possible to get a passport at least, but maybe not the ID? Although I was under the impression you needed the ID before the passport was granted. Maybe I'm mistaken. Seems like the Thai government  is being typically irresponsible and xenophobic in it's historic approach to this matter, although that might be slowly changing due to pressure from international law courts and the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) which they are technically violating by not allowing children born to Burmese migrants or long term residents (such as my gf) in Thailand citizenship. http://www.thailawforum.com/articles/Burmese-Migrants-in-Thailand-7.html - this explains so. I will have to follow this up with the MoI, but after reading through a fair amount of info online it seems that my daughter should qualify for citizenship but that I should delay getting her a UK PP or taking her out the country in order to facilitate it, which is a shame, but something I'd do if it meant she was granted the Thai passport asap.

[Lungstib]

As far as I am aware a child needs one Thai Parent and born in Thailand to automatically qualify for a passport. Yes, you hear of kids just born here getting some special dispensation but its still rare. The office you choose to tackle this problem may be critical. Some local government departments do things that others wont. Up in the far north where I live we have many Thai Yai or Shan who are a race split by the Thai/Burma border with many still coming over to Thailand for the supposed better chance of work. We are talking hundreds of cases and our local office is well known to be the worst for helping sort out Thai I.D. for anyone. My friends children who were born here and got Thai I.D. now live in France and have French passports. They have still been allowed to keep both but in the past, especially boys, could not keep another passport if they wanted to hold on to their Thai one. Things may be changing but they change slowly and not always all over the country. It wont be easy.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

9 minutes ago, Lungstib said:

As far as I am aware a child needs one Thai Parent and born in Thailand to automatically qualify for a passport. Yes, you hear of kids just born here getting some special dispensation but its still rare. The office you choose to tackle this problem may be critical. Some local government departments do things that others wont. Up in the far north where I live we have many Thai Yai or Shan who are a race split by the Thai/Burma border with many still coming over to Thailand for the supposed better chance of work. We are talking hundreds of cases and our local office is well known to be the worst for helping sort out Thai I.D. for anyone. My friends children who were born here and got Thai I.D. now live in France and have French passports. They have still been allowed to keep both but in the past, especially boys, could not keep another passport if they wanted to hold on to their Thai one. Things may be changing but they change slowly and not always all over the country. It wont be easy.

This is my fear. I know it will be an arduous and overly bureaucratic process, which can be mind-numbing. To my mind, if you are born and registered at birth in a country & have at least one of your parents resident in that country (even if they're not naturalised) spend your whole life in said country and then go to apply for a passport - you should be granted it. I pay tax in Thailand and I work for a Thai company. My missus has been here since she was an infant and has been schooled here/worked here & paid into the system for many years, directly and indirectly. It seems criminal to me that this is such an issue we have to face, and I know we're not alone. I acknowledge the problem Thailand faces with it's migrants, but let's be honest, the government and big business exploit them and spit them out when they've served their purpose, so they benefit from them and disallow them any real rights or benefits in return other than usually menial work for low pay. I won't give up on this matter and will try my hardest to get my daughter what she is after all entitled to, but I would echo your sentiment that it probably won't be easy. If all else fails I will get her a British passport (far more desirable in the first place) but I need to obtain the Thai passport first if I can. It would make our situation a whole lot easier and our daughter's future a lot brighter if she could have the dual nationality she deserves.

[sanemax]

16 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

I won't give up on this matter and will try my hardest to get my daughter what she is after all entitled to, but I would echo your sentiment that it probably won't be easy. If all else fails I will get her a British passport (far more desirable in the first place) but I need to obtain the Thai passport first if I can. It would make our situation a whole lot easier and our daughter's future a lot brighter if she could have the dual nationality she deserves.

As your Daughter doesnt have a Thai Parent , she has no right to a Thai PP or I.D.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

In what way doesn't she have a 'right' to a Thai PP or ID? According to the Convention on the Right of the Child she does and if she were born in the UK or a number of other countries under the same circumstances she would qualify for a British passport after a given period of time, usually a few years, depending on the nation. Read the link to the CRC information I posted on the previous page to clarify what I have just said. Thailand are shirking their duty to adhere to this convention, which is pretty typical of them. 'Right' is a bit of funny old term to throw about in reality. If you believe in Human rights to the degree that everyone is entitled to shelter, healthcare, freedom of speech/religion and a place to call home (nationality) then I think you'd have to agree with me. Technically under the current flawed system which is not adhering to it's legal obligations you may be correct, but since you're in the same boat I'm surprised you say so. Odd / pedantic, haha. 

16 minutes ago, sanemax said:

As your Daughter doesnt have a Thai Parent , she has no right to a Thai PP or I.D.

 

[Swimman]

Those in Thailand who are struggling with being stateless should contact the UNHCR 

 

http://www.unhcr.org/thailand.html

 

[sanemax]

3 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

In what way doesn't she have a 'right' to a Thai PP or ID? According to the Convention on the Right of the Child she does and if she were born in the UK or a number of other countries under the same circumstances she would qualify for a British passport after a given period of time, usually a few years, depending on the nation. Read the link to the CRC information I posted on the previous page to clarify what I have just said. Thailand are shirking their duty to adhere to this convention, which is pretty typical of them. 'Right' is a bit of funny old term to throw about in reality. If you believe in Human rights to the degree that everyone is entitled to shelter, healthcare, freedom of speech/religion and a place to call home (nationality) then I think you'd have to agree with me. Technically you may be correct, but since you're in the same boat I'm surprised you say so. Odd. 

I am speaking about the reality of the situation, Yes I do think that stateless people should be given full I.D and rights , but that doesnt happen in Thailand .

   Your Daughter doesnt have a right to Thai I.D because neither of her Parents are Thai , She can get Burmese I.D or U.K ID , but not Thai I.D

[Megasin1]

One piece of advice, from my experience with my daughters British passport is don't register her birth through the British embassy, it is expensive and you don't need to. All you need for her British passport is to prove she has a British parent, however as I pointed out in a previous post (not here) when I applied to renew her passport online they wanted the witness to state that she was in the UK, this may or not apply to you, so you may need to do some research.

If i was you I would possibly try and obtain her id card in the town she was born then pop into a really busy passport office like the one in Pattaya to convert that into a passport, when my wife obtained my daughters Thai passport i'm pretty sure that it was based nearly purely on her id card....i was there but my mind was elsewhere....

getting into the land of dual nationality isn't always easy but well worth the visa free travel once she has it :)

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

15 hours ago, sanemax said:

I am speaking about the reality of the situation, Yes I do think that stateless people should be given full I.D and rights , but that doesnt happen in Thailand .

   Your Daughter doesnt have a right to Thai I.D because neither of her Parents are Thai , She can get Burmese I.D or U.K ID , but not Thai I.D

Fair enough, but this seems a little pessimistic to me, and I'm not a rookie, I've been here 10 years, so I understand your pessimism when it comes to this lot! I will try my best to prove this statement wrong. Since our daughter seems to qualify under the requirements of the CRC / new scheme to naturalise 'stateless' children AND because her mother is a long term resident of Thailand, not technically a migrant, I would say this will help our chances. I'll sort it out one way or another, it will just take time and a lot of patience on my part.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

15 hours ago, Swimman said:

Those in Thailand who are struggling with being stateless should contact the UNHCR 

 

http://www.unhcr.org/thailand.html

 

Thanks. I've taken a look and will contact them.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

14 hours ago, Megasin1 said:

One piece of advice, from my experience with my daughters British passport is don't register her birth through the British embassy, it is expensive and you don't need to. All you need for her British passport is to prove she has a British parent, however as I pointed out in a previous post (not here) when I applied to renew her passport online they wanted the witness to state that she was in the UK, this may or not apply to you, so you may need to do some research.

If i was you I would possibly try and obtain her id card in the town she was born then pop into a really busy passport office like the one in Pattaya to convert that into a passport, when my wife obtained my daughters Thai passport i'm pretty sure that it was based nearly purely on her id card....i was there but my mind was elsewhere....

getting into the land of dual nationality isn't always easy but well worth the visa free travel once she has it :)

I'll bear this in mind. Can try at Kburi city and then take it from there re: passport. If making a passport first is not possible, as that is the document that is more pressing - re: travel plans. The ID could come later as it's not really necessary until later in her life. I'm not sure if you can have one without the other, but I would have thought it was possible to make a child a passport before he/she is granted a national ID card - as there'd be many instances where it's required these days. Thanks for your advice mate.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

Thank you to everyone for your input, it has helped put me on the right track. I'll make enquiries with the correct government / international agencies later this month with my missus.

 

Much appreciated, cheers!

[baansgr]

My half Thai daughter had her first PP at 9 months old.....no I.D. card till she was 7 so I would think PP is still possible befor ID card but I also was under the assumption that at least 1 parent needed to be a Thai National.

[sanemax]

3 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Fair enough, but this seems a little pessimistic to me, and I'm not a rookie, I've been here 10 years, so I understand your pessimism when it comes to this lot! I will try my best to prove this statement wrong. Since our daughter seems to qualify under the requirements of the CRC / new scheme to naturalise 'stateless' children AND because her mother is a long term resident of Thailand, not technically a migrant, I would say this will help our chances. I'll sort it out one way or another, it will just take time and a lot of patience on my part.

It may sound pessimistic, but thats the reality of the situation .

The reality is that Children born in Thailand to two foreign nationals are not entitled to Thai I.D .

   Your Mrs having Burmese I.D may well be a hindrance , rather then a help .

The new scheme about giving stateless kids Thai I.D is only for stateless kids and your kid is eligible for Burmese I.D.

[Fab5BKK]

Re. citizenships countries use either "Jus Sanguinis" (= right of blood) or "Jus Soli" (= right of soil) or a combination of both

 

It seems that Thailand uses "Jus Sanguinis"

 

For more basic info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

 

Stateless people is another matter

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 hour ago, sanemax said:

It may sound pessimistic, but thats the reality of the situation .

The reality is that Children born in Thailand to two foreign nationals are not entitled to Thai I.D .

   Your Mrs having Burmese I.D may well be a hindrance , rather then a help .

The new scheme about giving stateless kids Thai I.D is only for stateless kids and your kid is eligible for Burmese I.D.

So renouncing the Burmese passport / citizenship might be a better bet? I will have to talk this through with the UNHCF and MoI, but given that our daughter has never left Thailand and that there must be children here who qualify for citizenship via their lineage or 'Jus Soli' rights to a neighbouring country - like the Mon / Shan / Karen for example, I think there is a chance to acquire Thai ID. In the area where my gf's family live there are, for example, many Mon who I'd imagine are technically eligible for Burmese ID (as they were Burmese born) but became transients that settled in TH, and have bribed the local officials in some cases and in others were granted Thai ID via naturalisation. All I can do is try anyway, it seems nuts to me that she (my little girl) wouldn't be afforded something that she has a right to, by virtue of 'Jus Soli', even if Thailand advocates 'Jus Sanguinis', the bastards! I'll give it my best. Again thanks for the extra info people!

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

It shouldn't be this difficult, GOD I HATE BUREAUCRACY!!!!! 

 

Thank you again for your support and information. Most appreciated guys and girls! 

[Fab5BKK]

13 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

So renouncing the Burmese passport / citizenship might be a better bet? I will have to talk this through with the UNHCF and MoI, but given that our daughter has never left Thailand and that there must be children here who qualify for citizenship via their lineage or 'Jus Soli' rights to a neighbouring country - like the Mon / Shan / Karen for example, I think there is a chance to acquire Thai ID. In the area where my gf's family live there are, for example, many Mon who I'd imagine are technically eligible for Burmese ID (as they were Burmese born) but became transients that settled in TH, and have bribed the local officials in some cases and in others were granted Thai ID via naturalisation. All I can do is try anyway, it seems nuts to me that she (my little girl) wouldn't be afforded something that she has a right to, by virtue of 'Jus Soli', even if Thailand advocates 'Jus Sanguinis', the bastards! I'll give it my best. Again thanks for the extra info people!

 

"Dura lex, sed lex", the law is harsh but it's the law