About Dave

[chiang mai]

This week marks the conclusion of a three-year ordeal for a friend of ours in that he has now been sentenced to four years in a Thai prison. During those three years of waiting I have witnessed a range of events associated with his case and now far better understand “the system” in this country and I am horrified. Here’s a real eye opener for those of you that have never experienced the way the legal system works here in Thailand:

Dave is a forty something ex City of London financial trader who made some money and got burnt out early. He came to Thailand to take a one-year break and fell in love with the place and stayed on into a second year. He is not everyone’s cup of tea but I found him to be very intelligent, good company over a game of pool or a beer and he told some wonderful stories – most people who bothered to get to know him ended up liking him. If Dave has one major fault it is that he lacks good judgement when it comes to dealing with people and more often took people and the things they said at face value.

Three years ago the police raided his rooming house and he was arrested on a charge of engaging in sex with an underage hill tribe boy, a charge that he denied and anyone who has known him do not believe is true. At the police station Dave was told that he would be charged with offences committed against a hill tribe lad that we all knew, someone we all gave pocket money to on occasion – a personable kid who attracted the sympathy of our group.

Right around that time a new provincial governor was appointed and he made a series of very public statements about reducing crime. Shortly after Dave was arrested the Governor went on national TV to proclaim the success of his work in reducing crime and cited Dave’s arrest as an example – news of the arrest was broadcast internationally and UK newspapers made a big deal out of it.

Dave posted bail of several hundred thousand baht and was released and subsequently met with the Prosecutor. The Prosecutor suggested that the charges against him could be written in two possible ways – the first was a one off offence and the second was multiple and repeated incidents over a two year period, the difference between the two being a very large payment to the Prosecutor – the opportunity to bribe the Prosecutor was declined simply because Dave didn’t have the money having just hired and pre-paid a defence attorney who cost several hundred thousand baht.

A series of court hearings took place and each was a shambles. The judge would hear three or four case in parallel giving each a ten minute or so slot before moving on to the next. Eventually a trial date was set and the earliest date was two years hence since it was estimated that the trial might last for two whole days. In the meantime Dave was free but he was nearly broke and soon had to rely on the charity of his friends. Worst of all his 30 day visa need to be renewed every month and this involved massive problems with Immigration who did not understand his circumstances and of course involved a paying renewal fees every month, often combined with late fees if he was even a day late. Often his visa was renewed only until the date of his next hearing and sometimes this was a matter of a few days yet he still had to pay the full fee. When he would show up at Immigration the next day to ask for another extension he would be charged one days overtstay.

The core of the charges against Dave revolved around the age of the hill tribe lad whom we all believed to be at least 18 although frankly he could have been anywhere between 15 and 25 I suppose. But since he was a hill tribe member he had no government issued ID hence it was almost impossible to be certain. We found out that the police had threatened the lad if he did not co-operate and that a local whom Dave with his brusk manner had upset had raised the complaint. We tried to get school records from the lad’s school showing his dates of attendance since this would imply an age but this avenue was closed down by the schools refusal to get co-operate.

Dave considered his position hopeless and considered ways to get out of the country but after careful thought concluded that, despite Thailand’s porous borders he would not be able to successfully get back to the West. So for two years Dave existed under the mental burden of knowing he was probably going to jail and there was nothing he could do about it – the mental strain was acute. He tried to get support and assistance from the Embassy and was told they do not get involved in internal legal affairs of the host country.

At Dave’s trial the Prosecutor offered five witnesses. The first was the arresting police officer who confirmed that Dave was alone when arrested. The second was an X-ray technician who had X-rayed the hill tribe lad and confirmed that he thought that from the X-rays the lad must be between 16 and eighteen years old. The third witness was a Westerner who worked for a locally based NGO who told the court of his work in preventing cases of child abuse but added nothing about Dave’s specific case. The fourth was from a forensic team who confirmed that Dave’s bed sheets contained traces of semen and the fifth a doctor who confirmed that the boy had never been sexually penetrated.

The defence presented only a single piece of evidence and that was letter from the hill tribe boy stating that his relationship with Dave was purely platonic and non sexual. The lad did not appear as a witness on the strongest advice of the Embassy and the defence attorney since both believed he would be unduly pressured to give a negative testimony. In fact the advice was that the lad should go and hide until the entire affair was concluded. He did this and went up country but was arrested on two occasions as the police hunted to present him as a prosecution witness. On both occasions he was able to bribe his way out of jail for about three thousand baht each time.

The outcome of Dave’s trial is as stated at the outset, a sentence of four years which none of us believe he will survive.

It’s really not worth debating here whether Dave is a paedophile or not since the evidence from the trial seems to prove he is not and the people who know him do not believe he is. It is however worth thinking about the circumstances we could each of us find ourselves in if we upset the wrong person.

[November Rain]

Please bear with me, I'm just trying to get this case straight in my mind. Am I correct with the following facts about the case, taken from the story as you have presented it?

Dave was alone when the police raided his room

No-one can be certain how old the boy is, he could be over the age of consent.

Both Dave & the boy categorically state they did not have a sexual relationship.

There is no evidence of penetration on the boy

There are no witnesses to anything untoward

Dave's sheets had traces of semen (his, I presume?) on (many men's do, I would imagine!! )

If these are the facts, how the hel_l did this case get in front of a jury, let alone how did he get convicted? Simply mind-boggling! What a horrible thing to happen.

[chiang mai]

Please bear with me, I'm just trying to get this case straight in my mind. Am I correct with the following facts about the case, taken from the story as you have presented it?

Dave was alone when the police raided his room

No-one can be certain how old the boy is, he could be over the age of consent.

Both Dave & the boy categorically state they did not have a sexual relationship.

There is no evidence of penetration on the boy

There are no witnesses to anything untoward

Dave's sheets had traces of semen (his, I presume?) on (many men's do, I would imagine!! )

If these are the facts, how the hel_l did this case get in front of a jury, let alone how did he get convicted? Simply mind-boggling! What a horrible thing to happen.

You are correct on all counts. There is no jury however, simply a judge. The best I can figure is that this is all about "face" - incidentally, the new Governor was one of the first to go following the recent coup.

[taxexile]

in front of a jury,

no juries in thailand , only judges

[LaoPo]

What a nightmare

A few questions though:

1. Who charged Dave with the sexual engaging with the hill tribe boy ?

edit:

sorry, missed that. I found it.

2. What would the 'benefit' be for the one who charged him ? It wasn't the boy, was it ?

3. Strange that the prosecutor came up with 5 witnesses, a doctor amongst them who told the court that the boy was never penetrated. Didn't that clear Dave ?

4. Why didn't the court accept the written letter from the hill tribe boy ?

5. Why didn't you and Dave's friends organize something (maybe financially) sothat he could flee the country; better free than 4 years in jail; innocent, as it appears according to your story.

But, assuming the story is true....a real nightmare !

LaoPo

Edited January 28, 2007 by LaoPo

[ChaiPrakarn]

So, he was letting a young boy sleep with him in his guesthouse room?

Its hard to believe that Thai justice puts farangs in jail for no reason at all.

Edited January 28, 2007 by ChaiPrakarn

[popshirt]

It has been stated elsewhere on this forum that non-Thais have "no rights" in the Thai legal system. It is not paranoid to suggest that non-Thais be very cautious in their sexual/friendship relationships with Thais, especially younger Thais.

[November Rain]

in front of a jury,

no juries in thailand , only judges

Didn't know that (obviously!) Thanks for the info. It starts to become clearer how he got convicted, then...

What a terrible travesty. Poor, poor man. Can he appeal? Are there any international justice groups that his case can be reported to?

[Florin]

I doubt the above is the whole story...it's an awful thing for anyone to be subjected to, but I don't think even in Thailand someone would get sent to jail based purely on what is written in the original post.

For example, can we have more on the "brusque manner"...I've seen many farangs behave like absolute bastards on a daily basis. If it were repeated occurences against someone who got very annoyed and could pull some strings...I'm not saying that even in this case the punishment would fit the crime, but still...anywhere in the world I reckon you have to be doing quite a few nasty things to get yourself in this kind of a jam. You're part of his entourage, but perhaps there might be some aspect of Dave's life you're not aware of, some kind of business deal gone sour or some other such more high-level offence?

[chiang mai]

What a nightmare

A few questions though:

1. Who charged Dave with the sexual engaging with the hill tribe boy ?

2. What would the 'benefit' be for the one who charged him ? It wasn't the boy, was it ?

3. Strange that the prosecutor came up with 5 witnesses, a doctor amongst them who told the court that the boy was never penetrated. Didn't that clear Dave ?

4. Why didn't the court accept the written letter from the hill tribe boy ?

5. Why didn't you and Dave's friends organize something (maybe financially) sothat he could flee the country; better free than 4 years in jail; innocent, as it appears according to your story.

But, assuming the story is true....a real nightmare !

LaoPo

1) The Prosecutor laid the charges, presumably on behalf of the state - the person who made the original complaint was someone whom Dave had annoyed and was perhaps friendly with a cop, not sure about that.

2) The benefit? I got you back for pissing me off, I guess.

3) It seems not

4) It beggars belief but the letter did not have the desired or expected effect.

5) Believe me we spent hours on this one and it's not until you put your mind to the mechanics of how to do it that you realise it's almost impossible in this day and age. Sure you can get to Cambodia or Laos or Malaysia but without an entry stamp. Without an entry stamp you won't get an exit stamp from that country etc etc.

It is difficult to believe but it is all true although I would expect some of the less experienced to doubt its validity. Frankly if someone had told me this tale a few years ago and I had not witnessed it first hand I would have done the same.

[chiang mai]

I doubt the above is the whole story...it's an awful thing for anyone to be subjected to, but I don't think even in Thailand someone would get sent to jail based purely on what is written in the original post.

For example, can we have more on the "brusque manner"...I've seen many farangs behave like absolute bastards on a daily basis. If it were repeated occurences against someone who got very annoyed and could pull some strings...I'm not saying that even in this case the punishment would fit the crime, but still...anywhere in the world I reckon you have to be doing quite a few nasty things to get yourself in this kind of a jam. You're part of his entourage, but perhaps there might be some aspect of Dave's life you're not aware of, some kind of business deal gone sour or some other such more high-level offence?

I expect people to doubt the story and frankly I would have also had I not been directly associated with it. I'm comfortable that all the material facts are set out in the OP and doubt there is much else behind the scenes. I would stress here that I am not a part of Dave's entourage - he is someone I met casually and tried, along with many others, to help. I'm afraid I can't add much more his brusque manner in the context of the original complaint and what he might have done to cause it. Dave was never a violent person but was often lose with his toungue after a few beers.

[chiang mai]

So, he was letting a young boy sleep with him in his guesthouse room?

Its hard to believe that Thai justice puts farangs in jail for no reason at all.

A few years ago I would have agreed but now a few years on I have seen too many odd things in Thailand and this is just another of them. I understand why you find it hard to believe, had I not been close to the issue I would also.

[taxexile]

if dave was a city of london trader on a year off , then one would assume that he would have enough money to buy his way out of this .

a couple of million baht , 30,000 uk pounds.

if he was set up by someone , then money would have surely "got him out of jail free", i think he was let down by his lawyer who should have been more adept with his negotiations.

but there are still many unanswered questions about this.

especially in the last paragraph of the post.

[chiang mai]

if dave was a city of london trader on a year off , then one would assume that he would have enough money to buy his way out of this .

a couple of million baht , 30,000 uk pounds.

if he was set up by someone , then money would have surely "got him out of jail free", i think he was let down by his lawyer who should have been more adept with his negotiations.

but there are still many unanswered questions about this.

especially in the last paragraph of the post.

Dave was an ex-City of London trader but did not have huge amounts of money. He had enough to see him through a year or two of "time-off" but that was all. Subsequent unforeseen costs caused his savings to dwindle rapidly.

As for the last para: I guess no one can be absolutely certain about the behavior of another, behind closed doors. But on balance I and the people who know him conclude he is not a pedophile. We reach that conclusion on the basis of his behavior and many conversations on a range of subjects over the years. It's all about how do we each assess the character of others and the process we go through to do so.

[taxexile]

then who did he upset ?

and how ?

[chiang mai]

then who did he upset ?

and how ?

Good question - he doesn't know and I certainly don't. But let's face it, it's not difficult for a farang to piss off somebody without realizing it - just take a look at some of the posts on TV and see what happens when someone prods another with something they think is humorous. As farangs in Thailand I suspect that most of us try to fit in but there have to be times when we get it wrong.

[taxexile]

who was present in the room when the prosecutor asked for a bribe to lessen the charges ?

[OneeyedJohn]

What on earth is the Embassy for if not to help one of its' citizens.

That is so <deleted> scary.

[chiang mai]

who was present in the room when the prosecutor asked for a bribe to lessen the charges ?

Taxexile, I really don't know that I have any further details other than the OP and your questions seem like they are trying to find fault with the story. To answer your question specifically, I don't know but wouldn't you just guess that the answer is Dave and the Prosecutor? I am not overly concerned if you or others do not believe the story or think that something has been left out that might change the interpretation. My objective in making this post is to raise awareness of the way the system works and of the things that can happen that can't always be fully explained. If I achieve that with a few people then it will have been worth while replying to the finite detail of the case (of which I am not fully aware) raised in your posts.

[chiang mai]

What on earth is the Embassy for if not to help one of its' citizens.

That is so <deleted> scary.

Yes, that's an eye opener. But there again (and few people fully understand this) the role of the Embassy is not to bail you out when you get in trouble and it is certainly not there to interfere with the due process of a country's legal system, no matter how odd it might be.

[alexth]

who was present in the room when the prosecutor asked for a bribe to lessen the charges ?

If I were Dave, I wouldn't go into that. The prosecutor would make sure the guards will lock him up and throw away the key. Thailand it's not just the country where legal scandals are appreciated...

[taxexile]

and your questions seem like they are trying to find fault with the story.

i am not trying to find fault with the story , and i dont doubt the veracity of it.

i have heard many horror stories involving the thai legal sysytem , foriegners , money hungry prosecutors and lawyers and supposedly angered locals.

your post and the reasons behind it are more than worthwhile , and i believe that embassies and the national foriegn press should be more proactive when cases of obvious injustice , cases with little proof and/or instances of corruption and bribery involve their citizens.

i am merely trying to elicit more details about this case.

[Pink Mist]

and your questions seem like they are trying to find fault with the story.

i am not trying to find fault with the story , and i dont doubt the veracity of it.

i have heard many horror stories involving the thai legal sysytem , foriegners , money hungry prosecutors and lawyers and supposedly angered locals.

your post and the reasons behind it are more than worthwhile , and i believe that embassies and the national foriegn press should be more proactive when cases of obvious injustice , cases with little proof and/or instances of corruption and bribery involve their citizens.

i am merely trying to elicit more details about this case.

I am not gonna hijack the post, but I wouldnt put to much faith in embassies or goverments protecting their citizens, David Hicks is a good example. 5 years without a charge being laid and kept in Cuba.

[Jimjim]

What on earth is the Embassy for if not to help one of its' citizens.

That is so <deleted> scary.

I think you misunderstand how much power an embassy has. Imagine if this case was in the U.S. about a Chinese man. If you were American, how would you feel about the Chinese embassy meddling in the case? My guess is you wouldn't like it. You'd want the courts to get it right themselves.

The problem is, it sets a dangerous precedent if embassies try to wield too much power. That is not the role of an embassy. If they get too involved, the host government could always make things extremely difficult for that country and the embassy.

[Robski]

As November Rain said, are there any international justice groups getting involved in this case?

[Pink Mist]

This case is 3 years old, something wouldve happened already.

[Neeranam]

Is Dave gay?

Don't piss people off.

Don't sleep with young boys.

What on earth was an middle-aged Englishman doing with a 16 year old hill tribe boy in his room. Giving pocket money - come on, I wasn't born yesterday.

[Phil Conners]

Thailand is not the place to seek justice. I would suggest getting out by whatever means possible. ASAP.

[Pink Mist]

good advice

[chiang mai]

This case is 3 years old, something wouldve happened already.

It did, on Friday he was sentenced to 4 yrs in prison but it took three years to get to that point whilst waiting for a trial date.