Marx's German birthplace unveils controversial statue of him

[canuckamuck]

4 minutes ago, stevenl said:

See your own link.

Up to you to explain yourself, or at least present a glimmer of an argument

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, MaeJoMTB said:

You are completely wrong, Cultural Marxism is what's destroying the modern white world.

Most corporations are run to advance all the 'isms' without any thought for shareholder profits.

 

You think Banks are run to make shareholders profits?

Ask the shareholders of those banks for the last 20 years, they only made losses.

 

Utter tripe

[sukhumvitneon]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

The blind pursuit of shareholder value is one of the problems resulting in lack of long term investment and hollowing out. Great companies also care about their workforce, local community and environment. In other words, shareholders are not the only stakeholders ?

Exactly.

 

In companies where the workers are better compensated and have more paid leave and the ability to take time off for life's important events such as the birth of a child, there is greater worker productivity then at companies where this isn't the case.  I have to say I'm very jealous of the EU/UK/NZ/Australian work culture with statutory paid time off, maternity/paternity leave, and so forth.  There's also a culture in Europe and elsewhere where taking a "gap year" is not only acceptable but in some cases encouraged.  Tell a US employer you want to take a year off to travel the world or pursue your interests and they'll stare at you like you just grew an antenna out of your head.  The work/life balance in the US is easily the worst of any the western countries; the US is good for making money but as for personal pursuits and raising a family sadly there's a lot left to be desired here.

[canuckamuck]

41 minutes ago, sukhumvitneon said:

Exactly.

 

In companies where the workers are better compensated and have more paid leave and the ability to take time off for life's important events such as the birth of a child, there is greater worker productivity then at companies where this isn't the case.  I have to say I'm very jealous of the EU/UK/NZ/Australian work culture with statutory paid time off, maternity/paternity leave, and so forth.  There's also a culture in Europe and elsewhere where taking a "gap year" is not only acceptable but in some cases encouraged.  Tell a US employer you want to take a year off to travel the world or pursue your interests and they'll stare at you like you just grew an antenna out of your head.  The work/life balance in the US is easily the worst of any the western countries; the US is good for making money but as for personal pursuits and raising a family sadly there's a lot left to be desired here.

Well that is fine if you want it. It is a long way from taking away all of the corporate and private property at gunpoint and distributing it to the masses for equality's sake. While at the same time dismantling the government and replacing it with a committee of good people with no recall or checks and balances.

[BuriramSam]

On 5/5/2018 at 10:15 PM, stevenl said:

As it should be.

 

So far the posters here have no clue about Marx's ideas.

No. The reality is Marx's ideas, and the results, are common knowledge. I am basing my reply on textbook and Google hit knowledge. Please feel free to tell me what I've missed.

[Grouse]

36 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

Well that is fine if you want it. It is a long way from taking away all of the corporate and private property at gunpoint and distributing it to the masses for equality's sake. While at the same time dismantling the government and replacing it with a committee of good people with no recall or checks and balances.

It's all a matter of balance. Extreme capitalism and extreme communism are unacceptable. Social justice is what is needed.

[canuckamuck]

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

It's all a matter of balance. Extreme capitalism and extreme communism are unacceptable. Social justice is what is needed.

Ew! that is a much abused term these days. What is needed is to keep working on things to make them better. Getting people motivated to excel and innovate would be a nice start. Better education that rewards effort and originality, as well as weaning people off of reliance on state.

 

[MaeJoMTB]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

Utter tripe

Next you'll be claiming Marx didn't live off his wealthy aristocrat wife and impregnate her maid.

 

Edited May 7, 2018 by MaeJoMTB

[BuriramSam]

24 minutes ago, Grouse said:

It's all a matter of balance. Extreme capitalism and extreme communism are unacceptable. Social justice is what is needed.

How about you keep what's yours and I keep what's mine?  That's my kind of social justice. What's yours?

[blazes]

4 minutes ago, MaeJoMTB said:

Next you'll be claiming Marx didn't live of his wealthy aristocrat wife and impregnate her maid.

 

Well, we can at least admit that Marx could not have accomplished some of his important work without the intervention in his life of that famous capitalist/communist, Friedrich Engels.  

If only some of today's capitalist barons could replicate some of Engels' insight into history, the plight of the poor and the need for greater equality.  These desirable ends will not come from the ravenous, insatiable greed of the likes of Bezos or Musk and their ilk, celebrated daily by all the US Pravdas who urge the plebs daily to buy buy buy....

[MaeJoMTB]

Just now, blazes said:

 

Well, we can at least admit that Marx could not have accomplished some of his important work without the intervention in his life of that famous capitalist/communist, Friedrich Engels.  

If only some of today's capitalist barons could replicate some of Engels' insight into history, the plight of the poor and the need for greater equality.  These desirable ends will not come from the ravenous, insatiable greed of the likes of Bezos or Musk and their ilk, celebrated daily by all the US Pravdas who urge the plebs daily to buy buy buy....

About the only thing I like about Marx, is his feeling that women were so unimportant, they weren't worth writing about.

[stevenl]

3 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

Up to you to explain yourself, or at least present a glimmer of an argument

Quite a few times here I and others have given good information and arguments, only to be countered with nonsense from you and your ilk. And now you want me to 'present a glimmer of an argument'? You're trolling.

[sukhumvitneon]

1 hour ago, canuckamuck said:

Well that is fine if you want it. It is a long way from taking away all of the corporate and private property at gunpoint and distributing it to the masses for equality's sake. While at the same time dismantling the government and replacing it with a committee of good people with no recall or checks and balances.

That's the thing: we agree.  Communism isn't viable and won't work under any circumstances.

 

At the same time: Workers in the US have a raw deal. "At will employment" should be a two way street but it's really not.  For example, you're supposed to give two weeks notice if you're leaving a job. If you up and leave without doing so,  it's "unprofessional", and you'll most likely be blacklisted.  Meanwhile, an employer can do the same and you better have a good reason as to why you're unemployed as a job applicant in your next interview.

 

Frankly, the US sucks for most workers, especially millennials.  There's high student debt, unbelievably high health insurance costs thanks to Obamacare, and high housing costs in almost any city that has a decent job market.  The HR blogger response?  "Just retrain and stay positive!!!"  Sure, let me go ahead and pull that 20k out of my a** for tuition.

[canuckamuck]

21 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Quite a few times here I and others have given good information and arguments, only to be countered with nonsense from you and your ilk. And now you want me to 'present a glimmer of an argument'? You're trolling.

Do you have an example of one of your arguments?

[canuckamuck]

20 minutes ago, sukhumvitneon said:

That's the thing: we agree.  Communism isn't viable and won't work under any circumstances.

 

At the same time: Workers in the US have a raw deal. "At will employment" should be a two way street but it's really not.  For example, you're supposed to give two weeks notice if you're leaving a job. If you up and leave without doing so,  it's "unprofessional", and you'll most likely be blacklisted.  Meanwhile, an employer can do the same and you better have a good reason as to why you're unemployed as a job applicant in your next interview.

 

Frankly, the US sucks for most workers, especially millennials.  There's high student debt, unbelievably high health insurance costs thanks to Obamacare, and high housing costs in almost any city that has a decent job market.  The HR blogger response?  "Just retrain and stay positive!!!"  Sure, let me go ahead and pull that 20k out of my a** for tuition.

You realize that up until the last couple of centuries that basically everyone lived in basic poverty except for the ruling class. There was nothing like employment laws or any sort of expectation of a livable wage. It was survival of the fittest. Capitalism saved us from feudalism.

You take a lot of things for granted which only exist because of the fantastic technological explosion of western culture. Under Marxist ideals, none of the huge strides in quality of life would have occurred. We owe all of it to capitalism and a moral foundation that insisted on rule of law and the existence of charitable foundations. Capitalism and morality are the dynamic duo for human advancement. We need only to improve the system as we move forward. Marx was against both.

[Chomper Higgot]

6 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

I admire the way you faithfully represent the debating skills of the left. Never once wandering off course to fact check or even present a reasoned argument.

The man's very name is instantly recognized and inseparably connected to an ideology known the world over. The only other ideologies which are as closely connected to a man's name are major religions.

Says a man who blindly copied and pasted somebody else’s fake Marx quote.

 

[MaeJoMTB]

6 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

The only other ideologies which are as closely connected to a man's name are major religions.

1. You think Marxism isn't a religion?

2. Buddha, more ideology than religion.

Edited May 7, 2018 by MaeJoMTB

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

Well that is fine if you want it. It is a long way from taking away all of the corporate and private property at gunpoint and distributing it to the masses for equality's sake. While at the same time dismantling the government and replacing it with a committee of good people with no recall or checks and balances.

Hyperbole ... again.

 

Things have moved on since Marx.

 

Read up on mixed economies.

 

I was going to suggest you read up on the failures and the failing of capitalism but the evidence is all around us.

 

[maximillian]

16 hours ago, james1995 said:

I find it quite ironic that so many people in my country hate socialism.  I would like to remind them that if Jesus was alive today he would be a socialist.  Jesus was a communist Jew but somehow this other guy is a piece of slime.  The irony of it all.

Jesus' name has been abused. His teachings were (are) valid. He didn't intent to establish a religion in which's name millions got killed. He didn't have the Vatikan in his mind, nor the churches and cathedrals, not the 30 Year War, nor all the bad things that happened in his name. The very same applies to Marx and Engels.

What about the French Revolution ?  Sure it's been violent.  But would we like to miss it and live in the dark ages of feudalism ?

Capitalism on the other hand is a child of feudalism. Profit by ALL means is its ideology, exploitation of people, countries, even whole continents is the norm, wars and destruction are just another business field, qualms about environment not needed.

Capitalism is easy achieved bc humans are evil, communism needs better humans.

Blaming the USSR for its failure ?  Consider Russia's history and the wars it was forced to fight. Socialism needs a real democratic society. Yesterdays Russia only knew the tsarist rule and it's terrible secret police system.

The "communist" officials mostly came from tsarists positions. Stalin was forced to fight not only Hitler Germany but als counter revolution.

What we should strive for is a basic democratic system with a human social market.

Get away from capitalism that wants to control every aspect and need of human life.

People must take control of their basic needs themselves, not leave it up to multinationals like Monsanto, Nestle, Bayer, Google, Yahoo, Apple... and such...  We need a world without nuclear, biological and chemical weapons, without secret services, without Media in the hands of a few, without suppressive financial institutions and without the unhindered rule of the obscenly rich individuals.

[canuckamuck]

32 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Says a man who blindly copied and pasted somebody else’s fake Marx quote.

 

I posted a paragraph of a book that included the exact quote that Bradford posted word for word, except that it was divided in two by the book's author, for editorial comment. That post was removed because it was screen grab (somehow that is different than copying and pasting. I will leave that up to the mods.)

It is up to you to show that Bradford's Marx quote, which is still in this thread, is  false. I even told you which publication of Marx the quote appeared in, the year, and the purpose of the publication. And also where to find it in another book.

 

You are the one being deceptive. Do you think that somehow all this hair splitting you do makes you look anything other than immature, and out of your depth?

[canuckamuck]

34 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Hyperbole ... again.

 

Things have moved on since Marx.

 

Read up on mixed economies.

 

I was going to suggest you read up on the failures and the failing of capitalism but the evidence is all around us.

 

Mixed economies would have been an anathema to Marx. He was for total replacement of the state and economy.

[puck2]

7 hours ago, RickBradford said:

Oh, the point is to suggest that a statue to Marx, whose murderous ideology led to the deaths of hundreds of millions of people, is an obscenity and an insult.

 

The secondary point is to marvel at the dim bulbs who call for a return to Marxism, having apparently learned nothing from the appalling carnage it produced in the 20th century.

 

Really? hundreds of millions?

 

Did you ever spend 10 seconds about the negative sides of Capitalism? I guess not.

 

Otherwise you would recognize that capitalism is related to more deaths than Marx's ideology ever created. Maybe. Of course, the the capitalists brush this negative side under the carpet,... na, with their almighty weapon, the money. One reason we have been flooded by positive news of capitalism in general.

 

• During his lifetime Marx recognized the awful results of the extreme New Industrialization, highlighted in the abusive „Manchester Capitalism“, also known as laissez-faire-capitalism, during the Industrial Revolution of the 19^th century.. Maybe you won't read/learn about the excesses. But Marx and Engels, too, had a reason to attack the new trend. To name only a few:

  • child labour, working 12-14 hours a day, famine wages and exploiting, no labour law, So many English workers emigrated to the USA during this time.

     

• Money, a elementary part of capitalism, gives power to influence daily life, politics, parties, laws and stupid people. Best example: Trump's (minority) election by promising spending money in the right regions or reducing taxes for the riches/capitalists.

• Doubtless, there is a progress in workers daily life. But would it be so far as today, if Marx and Engels, too, hadn't put their fingers into the wound of the capitalistic excesses?

• In Westerns parts of the world the working „class“ has a better life than many decades before. (I did not yet read here on TV) – the Western style of capitalism is partly based on exploiting the „working“ class in the third world. That is called capitalism.

  • Could you buy a cheap shirt if not fabricated in Bangladesh?

  • Would the asparagus be so cheap, if not harvested by the Polish workers in England or Germany?

  • Wouldn't the food in the USA be more expensive, if there weren't the low payed Middle or South American workers?

• Wars have been made in the hidden name of capitalism. Best example: for oil in the Iraq War, started in 2003. I remember that Germany has been asked to participate in this war. Otherwise it couldn't be part of the oil „exploiters“.

• Colonialism also was a special form of capitalism. Exploiting other countries, people.

• Lobbyists, representing money-makers scrupulously.

 

 

 

[RickBradford]

 

Quote

Really? hundreds of millions?

Really. I have seen figures from academia of up to 259 million, with Marxist-Leninist Russia just beating out Maoist China for the gold medal with over 100 million each. The North Korea, Cambodia and Vietnam vie for the bronze.

 

Let's give it to Cambodia, because they were the ones who hewed closest to the instructions given by Marx in his writings.

 

Quote

Did you ever spend 10 seconds about the negative sides of Capitalism? I guess not.

Not even 1 second. Because this topic is about a statue of Marx, the man who made it all possible.

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, MaeJoMTB said:

Next you'll be claiming Marx didn't live off his wealthy aristocrat wife and impregnate her maid.

 

I told you he was a good bloke!

 

Great down the pub! You should have heard him on the social implications of buying a round! When it was his shout.

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, BuriramSam said:

How about you keep what's yours and I keep what's mine?  That's my kind of social justice. What's yours?

Do you want me to quote Magna Carta?

 

No. Well in short, we should contribute to the common need according to ability. So progressive taxation of individuals and corporations

 

The inadequate, the aged and the sick should be assured a respectable life.

 

Check out Gini coefficients over time

 

A big problem that is killing the UK is uncontrolled residential property inflation. Far too many  getting wealthy for doing nothing and contributing nothing. Death duty at 90% would do.

[MaeJoMTB]

31 minutes ago, Grouse said:

A big problem that is killing the UK is uncontrolled residential property inflation. Far too many  getting wealthy for doing nothing and contributing nothing. Death duty at 90% would do.

You forgot all the big corporations paying ZERO taxes.

Property inflation is easily solved, remove all planning restrictions on residential homes.

Along with sequestration and redistribution of all land owned by the Queen, State, Church and National Trust.

And only allowing British citizens to own land in the UK.

Edited May 7, 2018 by MaeJoMTB

[Chomper Higgot]

6 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

Mixed economies would have been an anathema to Marx. He was for total replacement of the state and economy.

Mixed economies are only possible because of the acceptance of socialism.

 

Leftwing and socialist thinking did not come to a shuddering halt when Marx died.

[Chomper Higgot]

6 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

I posted a paragraph of a book that included the exact quote that Bradford posted word for word, except that it was divided in two by the book's author, for editorial comment. That post was removed because it was screen grab (somehow that is different than copying and pasting. I will leave that up to the mods.)

It is up to you to show that Bradford's Marx quote, which is still in this thread, is  false. I even told you which publication of Marx the quote appeared in, the year, and the purpose of the publication. And also where to find it in another book.

 

You are the one being deceptive. Do you think that somehow all this hair splitting you do makes you look anything other than immature, and out of your depth?

Is that a modern take on ‘the dog ate my home work’?

 

——- 

 

The paragraph you posted was not ‘word for word’ the same as that of RB.

 

If it had been you would have corrected me at the time I commented on you being played by RB and his fake Marx quote.

 

Now the dog’s eaten your homework you want us to believe it deserved a Grade A.

 

[blazes]

Admittedly, Marx was not overly keen on Jesus, but it is worth noting that some of the things Jesus was to have a reputation for make him sound like the  prequel to Marx.

Such as, "He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away"  (Luke l, 53)

 

[and why berate Karl for screwing the maid when Joseph himself was a bit puzzled as to how his wife had become pregnant]

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, blazes said:

[and why berate Karl for screwing the maid when Joseph himself was a bit puzzled as to how his wife had become pregnant]

If your wife came home pregnant, but said she had not had sex with anyone wouldn't anyone be a bit "puzzled"?