Israeli forces kill dozens in Gaza as U.S. Embassy opens in Jerusalem

[Ahab]

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Cutting through the fence and then charging at Israeli soldiers with knives, axes, whatever, and you get exactly what you deserve. Hamas leadership doesn't give a crap about how many protesters are killed, the more that are killed or injured, the better the anti-Israeli headlines.

 

If you are anti-Israel on this topic take some time and read up on what is really going on. If you are still pro-Palestinian/Hamas there is no help for you.

[jimmyyy]

17 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

No, the ones who were just there, the children, the disabled, like the ones in the article you have implied that you have read, did you not bother to read it and just assumed that the Israeli's were killing people who were shooting at them rather than the innocents that they have killed yet again?

Israel fires back, once they are fired upon.  You should understand the battle field conditions before you shoot off at the mouth.  Once again, another liberal cuck you can't do his homework. 

[Kieran00001]

1 minute ago, jimmyyy said:

Israel fires back, once they are fired upon.  You should understand the battle field conditions before you shoot off at the mouth.  Once again, another liberal cuck you can't do his homework. 

 

They shot someone in a wheelchair and they shot several children, I understand the battlefield conditions, the Palestinians are largely using rocks and still have in their minds the past bombing raids that saw them attacked with banned chemical weapons, so before shooting your mouth off try to consider the battle field conditions.

[jimmyyy]

from a wheelchair with a open site rifle i can hit you up to 400  yards.  Don't talk to this combat vet about wheel chairs.  A rock can kill as easily as a bullet.  Like i said know the battle space.  also be mindful terrorists are popping up shooting at IDF forces then hiding behind these kids, not my fault as the defender when the kids get dead.  If i am receiving accurate fire from a portion of my battle space and it is permitted within my AOR I will return fire at a rate that will deeply discourage any additional fire into my battle space.  

[bandito]

22 hours ago, dexterm said:

Palestinians have the right to resist illegal occupation. Their lands have been stolen by European colonists. They want their land back, and the right to return to the homes for which many of them still hold the keys.

Israel was there first thousands of years ago before chased out.

Israeliers wanted their land back and they got it.

There is and was never a "Palestine".

Israeliers will not let them run out again by your terrorist friends the so called "Palestines".

[jimmyyy]

So just putting myself into the battle space, this is what i am talking about. 

 

Rock is thrown at my soldiers

Response, tear gas the entire area

 

Indirect mortar fire into my defensive fire position

Response, Call in Arty, counter battery fire, all riflemen to the firing steps, prepare to repel, request air assets, helo', JDAM from TAC AIR

Continue to SPOT ARTY until mortar fire onto my DFP ceases

 

Small arms fire into my defensive position

Return with Mortars, machine gun, Arty, Air Assets, until fire ceases into our DFP. 

 

My goal is to keep my soldiers safe, you fire on my soldiers you are going to die, make no doubt about it.  I am just trying to look at it from a Battalion or platoon commanders position within the IDF. 

 

 

[JimmyTheMook]

22 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Cutting through the fence and then charging at Israeli soldiers with knives, axes, whatever, and you get exactly what you deserve. Hamas leadership doesn't give a crap about how many protesters are killed, the more that are killed or injured, the better the anti-Israeli headlines.

 

If you are anti-Israel on this topic take some time and read up on what is really going on. If you are still pro-Palestinian/Hamas there is no help for you.

 

He is a little more light for those who actually think peaceful protests are what is taking place.

 

 Of the victims of the Gaza riots, 24 have been confirmed as active members of terrorist organizations.

 

 

[BobBKK]

18 hours ago, Morch said:

 

You are aware that Hamas is not quite supportive of the two-state solution thing, right? This isn't something one side is all for and the other side opposes.

My post in no way supports Hamas and I can't see any other solution.

[Chomper Higgot]

9 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Because they failed. Shooting does not automatically imply hitting.

 

As for you second point, I'm not sure if what you miss is some eye-for-an-eye balance in casualties. The IDF is obviously way better equipped and positioned compared to the protestors. That some expect things to be sorted in a boxing match or such is neither interesting, not relevant.

 

IMO, the Hamas leadership refrains (to a degree) from taking things too far - the Israeli response would be too harsh, and may risk Hamas's rule in the Gaza Strip. Instead, they egg their people onward, knowing  full well that the effort and the deaths are largely futile. The only playable angle here is milking the casualties figures into concessions allowing their rule of the Gaza Strip to be maintained a bit longer.

 

With regard to "minimum force"  - nope. But as posted earlier, there quite a shortage of reliable assessments of using minimal force under given conditions and available means. That people toss "non-lethal means", "rubber bullets", "tear gas" and whatnot, is not quite that. I'll bring this up again - say "minimal force" is applied, fails to deter, and a mass charge on the fence commences - do you imagine casualty figures (for but a single instance of this) wouldn't top the entire death toll since the protests began?

Blind excuses:

 

That no members of the Israeli forces were not infused is not evidence that the Palestinians shot but missed.

 

While you obfuscate with your discussion of ‘minimal force’ and boxing?! The issue at hand is a mass killing perpetrated by Israeli forces.

 

Let’s have the evidence of how near or how far from the fence those killed by the Israelis were when they were targeted.

 

We don’t need ‘arm chair what ifs’ we need data on kill/injure locations.

 

Theses will support or undermine the Israeli claims that the dozens of people killed and 2000+ injured were a direct threat.

[Chomper Higgot]

23 minutes ago, jimmyyy said:

So just putting myself into the battle space, this is what i am talking about. 

 

Rock is thrown at my soldiers

Response, tear gas the entire area

 

Indirect mortar fire into my defensive fire position

Response, Call in Arty, counter battery fire, all riflemen to the firing steps, prepare to repel, request air assets, helo', JDAM from TAC AIR

Continue to SPOT ARTY until mortar fire onto my DFP ceases

 

Small arms fire into my defensive position

Return with Mortars, machine gun, Arty, Air Assets, until fire ceases into our DFP. 

 

My goal is to keep my soldiers safe, you fire on my soldiers you are going to die, make no doubt about it.  I am just trying to look at it from a Battalion or platoon commanders position within the IDF. 

 

 

This is a discussion about a mass killing, not a sub group discussing their addiction to call of duty.

[Thorgal]

 
He is a little more light for those who actually think peaceful protests are what is taking place.
 
 Of the victims of the Gaza riots, 24 have been confirmed as active members of terrorist organizations.
 
 

Those victims are all Hamas policemen. They’ve no military function. The Qassam brigades are the military wing of Hamas.

Some of these policemen belong to a dedicated unit of border police.

Face recognition works pretty well at Israeli side...


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[Kieran00001]

35 minutes ago, jimmyyy said:

from a wheelchair with a open site rifle i can hit you up to 400  yards.  Don't talk to this combat vet about wheel chairs.  A rock can kill as easily as a bullet.  Like i said know the battle space.  also be mindful terrorists are popping up shooting at IDF forces then hiding behind these kids, not my fault as the defender when the kids get dead.  If i am receiving accurate fire from a portion of my battle space and it is permitted within my AOR I will return fire at a rate that will deeply discourage any additional fire into my battle space.  

 

The wheelchair was armed with a slingshot.  As for children being used as shields, did you think that gave them the right to shoot them? As a combat vet you should know the rules of engagement, they just broke the Geneva Convention, and you are supporting them in that.

[Chomper Higgot]

5 hours ago, Morch said:

There may be some sort of unofficial understanding reached between Israel and the Hamas, mediated by Egypt. Which is how most such instances are addressed and resolved. There were rumors about such for a few days now. Perhaps something came out of it.

 

The gist of it seems to be Hamas winding down the protests and their intensity, Israel and Egypt will open border passes to allow transfers of supplies and of those needing medical attention.

 

By evening, there were but a few thousand protestors left in the border (some reports suggest by Hamas orders, others say many went to pay condolences to families of dead and injured). Remains to be seen how things will develop after funerals, though.

 

The border pass with Israel (the one burned a few times by the Palestinians in recent days) will open (I think in the morning) mainly for humanitarian aid and medical supplies, while  and the border pass with Egypt will remain open as well - with injured Palestinians transferred to hospitals in Egypt.

 

Provided it comes through, it's another indication that all leaderships involved are not interested in pushing things too far, and that a whole lot of the bloodshed is the result of political power plays. In all probability, each will try to market this as an achievement to the people.

Carrot and stick applied and collective punishment applied tow whole population.

 

We must all thank the Israelis for their largesse.

[stevenl]

27 minutes ago, JimmyTheMook said:

 

He is a little more light for those who actually think peaceful protests are what is taking place.

 

 Of the victims of the Gaza riots, 24 have been confirmed as active members of terrorist organizations.

 

 

Nothing to do with these protests, this is old.

[simple1]

44 minutes ago, jimmyyy said:

from a wheelchair with a open site rifle i can hit you up to 400  yards.  Don't talk to this combat vet about wheel chairs.  A rock can kill as easily as a bullet.  Like i said know the battle space.  also be mindful terrorists are popping up shooting at IDF forces then hiding behind these kids, not my fault as the defender when the kids get dead.  If i am receiving accurate fire from a portion of my battle space and it is permitted within my AOR I will return fire at a rate that will deeply discourage any additional fire into my battle space.  

Have you used live ammunition against unarmed civilian demonstrators separated from you by a border fence - would you do so if ordered?

 

Exactly how many IDF members have been killed by rocks, small arms fire etc during the current  cross border confrontation - none. As we know IDF are killing known HAMAS members, but extrajudicial killings now seems to be the norm. As IDF are able to identify active HAMAS members, why are the IDF killing civilians? There would be some trying to lay explosives next to the fence, but many are shot away from the fence. Causing life changing injuries by way of live fire by snipers for thousands of civilians is for many unacceptable, including me.

 

I acknowledge all parties are at fault to one degree or another. However, IMO, Israel which is seen as representing a Western civilised society, to its detriment, is again and again deploying excessive force.

Edited May 16, 2018 by simple1

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

The wheelchair was armed with a slingshot.  As for children being used as shields, did you think that gave them the right to shoot them? As a combat vet you should know the rules of engagement, they just broke the Geneva Convention, and you are supporting them in that.

It all really doesn't matter. Some countries protest, but at the same time let Israel get away with it, time and time again.

 

Also look at this thread, the whole world condensed Israel, but many posters blindly defend Israel. Looks like the news alert for a ghost rider, where a person in a car shouts out ' one ghost rider, there are dozens of them here'.

[CharlesSwann]

56 minutes ago, bandito said:

Israel was there first thousands of years ago before chased out.

Israeliers wanted their land back and they got it.

There is and was never a "Palestine".

Israeliers will not let them run out again by your terrorist friends the so called "Palestines".

That excuse expired thousands of years ago.

The fundamental fact here is that Zionists just don't care about anyone else. They are going to take what they want because they want it. Nor do they care about the shameful way they are doing it. The shame will never wash off, never, but they don't care because they are shameless.

Hey Israel, happy in your new land?

[smokie36]

7 hours ago, Morch said:

 

None. Relevance?

 

Then its just good old fashioned mass murder then.

 

Case closed.

[carmine]

The points being either ignored, missed or simply being unaware of is that many of the Gaza problems could be hugely improved by israel being forced to end their illegal blockade of Gaza.  Add to that only 10% of the water supply is drinkable, with a humanitarian disaster not far away.  Israel has complete control, a stranglehold on this.

 

Moving on to the violence, i don't really understand what a highly trained IDF sniper would feel the need to murder women, children and a guy in a wheelchair.  Why does a highly trained IDF sniper think its acceptable to shoot a kid in the head from 300m because he's carrying a stone?  Its the totally disproportionate response that you see from them nowadays which is totally different from when i lived there years ago.  They really have to be very thankful that there is an incumbent American president that will defend them, (and the NRA) regardless of any situation and in breach of any protocol.

 

There is however no doubt in my mind that Hamas is stirring things up to use as cover for their attacks but regardless the ludicrous disproportionate response is unacceptable.

Edited May 16, 2018 by carmine

[carmine]

35 minutes ago, RonniePickering22 said:

 

Then its just good old fashioned mass murder then.

 

Case closed.

Theres no point in reasoning with someone that won't listen.  Theres mounting numbers of Israelis really not happy about whats going on as well.  

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, carmine said:

Theres no point in reasoning with someone that won't listen.  Theres mounting numbers of Israelis really not happy about whats going on as well.  

This mass killing has not yet tipped the balance, which begs a question:

 

At what point will those excusing this mass killing say enough is enough. How many Palestinians are Israeli forces permitted to kill before it becomes apparent to the excusers that this really is mass murder?

 

It seems very clear that number is not 58 dead and 2,500 injured - The excusers don't even accept that there should be an independent inquiry, or that forensic evidence should be gathered.

 

58 dead, 2,500 injured and the excusers can't even brook the question 'was this level of violence warranted'. 

 

Utterly disgusting. 

[carmine]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

This mass killing has not yet tipped the balance, which begs a question:

 

At what point will those excusing this mass killing say enough is enough. How many Palestinians are Israeli forces permitted to kill before it becomes apparent to the excusers that this really is mass murder?

 

It seems very clear that number is not 58 dead and 2,500 injured - The excusers don't even accept that there should be an independent inquiry, or that forensic evidence should be gathered.

 

58 dead, 2,500 injured and the excusers can't even brook the question 'was this level of violence warranted'. 

 

Utterly disgusting. 

Who the Trump administration giving such unequivocal back at the UN who knows.

 

Ironic that it was his backing of the embassy move to Jerusalem that ignited this.  He'll back them whatever, just like he backs the NRA whatever because he took 30m from them in campaign funds.

 

There will be no justice for the Palestinians, only widespread condemnation of the Israelis which Netanyahu is not concerned with. 

[carmine]

1 hour ago, CharlesSwann said:

That excuse expired thousands of years ago.

The fundamental fact here is that Zionists just don't care about anyone else. They are going to take what they want because they want it. Nor do they care about the shameful way they are doing it. The shame will never wash off, never, but they don't care because they are shameless.

Hey Israel, happy in your new land?

In fairness, there are many Israelis, politically to the left, having served in the IDF, that see what is going on and are deeply unhappy and disapproving.  And i reiterate, the illegal blockade of Gaza and general treatment of Palestinians will do nothing other that breed deeper hatred fo generations to com.

 

I wonder what the late great Prime Minister Yitzak Rabin would have thought of Netanyahu and his flawed Palestian policy? 

[Thorgal]

In fairness, there are many Israelis, politically to the left, having served in the IDF, that see what is going on and are deeply unhappy and disapproving.  And i reiterate, the illegal blockade of Gaza and general treatment of Palestinians will do nothing other that breed deeper hatred fo generations to com.
 
I wonder what the late great Prime Minister Yitzak Rabin would have thought of Netanyahu and his flawed Palestian policy? 

Rabin was also a war criminal with Egyptian war prisoners, but that’s off topic.


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[Morch]

4 hours ago, notmyself said:

 

Forget the UN as previously mentioned but there is always the ICC where you will find an upstanding body of fair minded people. As I remember this route was tried or err, suggested, as a possibility during the Obama administration and were told that it would never be allowed to come to pass and even if it were it would just be ignored.

 

The situation we see now and as far back as to the formation of Israel is not exactly unexpected and [spoiler alert] it doesn't turn out well for the Palestinians who end up as little more than serfs at the very best. Quite ironic that the Israelites supposedly escaped slavery and wandered around the desert for a generation. Whilst most Jews now accept this as pure myth, many forget that included in this myth are the title deeds to their claim of ownership. The state of Israel has known for a long time that they needed the title deeds and have spent vast sums of money on archaeology only to come up empty handed though as before, it will be ignored.

 

I don't know if you remember but then U.S. Presidential candidate Trump said he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and not lose support and it's the same with Israel evidently. Not that I don't blame the Palestinians too, both are children who should be left alone, unarmed, to fight it out themselves.

 

 

 

That's the post you responded to:

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1038253-israeli-forces-kill-dozens-in gaza as-us-embassy-opens-in-jerusalem/?page=14&tab=comments#comment-12988432

 

Seems like you either responded to the wrong post, or judging by the second and third paragraphs, simply going off on a tangent.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, BobBKK said:

My post in no way supports Hamas and I can't see any other solution.

 

There was nothing said about you or your post supporting Hamas. The comment was made in response to an earlier post of yours...

 

Quote

Yes I, for one, do. But as we are where we are the only practical solution is two-States but it will never happen as the greedy Zionists keep stealing other peoples land and I have a problem with THAT do you?

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1038253-israeli-forces-kill-dozens-in gaza as-us-embassy-opens-in-jerusalem/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-12986331

 

...and the point made was that the rejection of the path of peace is not solely an Israeli thing as presented - Hamas not being into it as well.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Blind excuses:

 

That no members of the Israeli forces were not infused is not evidence that the Palestinians shot but missed.

 

While you obfuscate with your discussion of ‘minimal force’ and boxing?! The issue at hand is a mass killing perpetrated by Israeli forces.

 

Let’s have the evidence of how near or how far from the fence those killed by the Israelis were when they were targeted.

 

We don’t need ‘arm chair what ifs’ we need data on kill/injure locations.

 

Theses will support or undermine the Israeli claims that the dozens of people killed and 2000+ injured were a direct threat.

 

I've no idea what you're on about. One of the questions put forth by the poster I replied to was yet another rendition regarding there being no casualties on the Israeli side.

 

There are several clips documenting such shootings, attempts at throwing IEDs or attaching them to the fence by Palestinians. These go back to when the protests started (last month) to yesterday. As far as I'm aware, there were no Israeli casualties resulting from these instances. Hence the comments about these attacks failing.

 

Similarly, I'm not the one who brought up "minimal force" - but was quoting the poster replied to.

 

Your standing nonsense and trolling regarding "evidence" was addressed multiple times. Some of these clips are pretty easy to access. Most originate from IDF surveillance, which would probably raise expected bogus comments regarding credibility - even though they are widely published in media outlets often hailed by the supposedly pro-Palestinian contingent on here. With some extra effort, one can find some by Hamas itself - but that would raise cries and demands for independent translations etc. We've all been through this song and dance on many a topic, seems kinda pointless.

 

I don't think all of those killed were a direct threat, and never claimed so. IMO, the rationale applied in many instances was to head off potential build up for a mass charge. Not saying I like this policy one bit, and it does raise legal and moral issues. On the other hand, I doubt that allowing things to develop into an acute, direct threat before acting, would have resulted in less casualties. IMO, quite the opposite.

 

[Morch]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Carrot and stick applied and collective punishment applied tow whole population.

 

We must all thank the Israelis for their largesse.

 

Seems like some posters cannot be satisfied no matter what. There's a development which may lead to the bloodshed being stopped - not good enough. Yeah, much better to keep things up, because....?

 

There is nothing wrong with carrot and stick. As for "collective punishment" - both sides cease hostilities, and some respite given to the people of Gaza. Not good enough as well, apparently. Obviously, not a word regarding the Hamas policies effectively contributing to the ongoing situation, and no mention of Egypt's role in maintaining the blockade. For some posters, its all about Israel no matter what.

[CharlesSwann]

37 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

There was nothing said about you or your post supporting Hamas. The comment was made in response to an earlier post of yours...

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1038253-israeli-forces-kill-dozens-in gaza as-us-embassy-opens-in-jerusalem/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-12986331

 

...and the point made was that the rejection of the path of peace is not solely an Israeli thing as presented - Hamas not being into it as well.

Here's the path of peace: give Palestine independence, unconditionally, right now.

If it doesn't work, if Palestinians still attack Israel after that with no provocation, then by all means Israel can call the initiative a failure, march in and take the whole territory for good. I would not object and I doubt the rest of the world would either.

 

Well, it won't happen because Israel does not want even the chance of peace. It wants East Jerusalem and the West Bank at any price. The strategy of stoking resistance while they take over the whole territory bit by bit is quite transparent.

 

Edited May 16, 2018 by CharlesSwann

[Morch]

2 hours ago, RonniePickering22 said:

 

Then its just good old fashioned mass murder then.

 

Case closed.

 

Impeccable logic. If one side fails to inflict casualties on the other than it's "mass murder". Not much of a litigator, it seems.