N. Korea suspends talks with South over military drills

[sweatalot]

7 minutes ago, farcanell said:

I think trump is petulant and unpredictable (the two words I used, I believe)... but... that said, I think he aspires to be an autarch.

 

 

... and you believe Kim is not petulant and unpredictable???

[farcanell]

2 minutes ago, sweatalot said:

... and you believe Kim is not petulant and unpredictable???

Like trump.... I think Kim is petulant and unpredictable. Just because I only referenced one, does not mean it cannot apply to another

 

that said... Kim is the bigger man here

 

trump is on record as saying that Kim was a very smart man ( how else could he maintain power, is the justification for the comment, if memory serves... could be wrong... but said it he did)..... I think he is showing trump just how smart he is, because herein, he has made trump look bad.... vilified him, even

 

in so doing, international opinion, which has reliably been anti NK, is swinging towards being anti US

 

reinforced by the Iran situation.... with a swing in sympathy towards Iran.

 

reinforced by moving the US embassy during a time of extreme middle eastern unrest

 

or basically, just a swing away from trumps administration, agenda and country.... well done mr trump.???

 

[Srikcir]

6 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

And send the message to a petulant unpredictable dictator that he can demand whatever he wants, and get it?

To date what has Kim demanded?

Nothing other than respect as a national leader of a nuclear state. Recently Trump said he honors Kim.

But proceeding with these maneuvers says otherwise.

 

Kim should have been invited to observe the maneuvers on a US warship. Imagine the favorable optics for Kim pictured standing next to the US highest Pacific commander on a US warship for the North and South Korean public! And the US would demonstrate its further respect of Kim following Trump's lead. If Kim felt too politically vulnerable with such optics, he would decline the offer. But in such case he would have little to complain.

 

The art of diplomacy is giving someone what they want that doesn't cost you anything! 

[lannarebirth]

5 hours ago, Aj Mick said:

The Donald and his merry pranksters have been trumpeting on about the concessions and capitulation of North Korea in the face of the might of the USA, without conceding anything themselves........ just more war-games at a sensitive time. Little wonder that the North Korean's have pushed back.

 

What would you have the USA concede to the North Koreans? And for that matter, what actual concessions have the North Koreans undertaken?

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, Scouse123 said:

 

There cannot be a United Korea. It's an impossibility, at least for a long time in the future.

 

You want South Korea to subject itself to the government of the North?

 

Do you think Kim Jong Un would allow himself to fall under the jurisdiction of the South?

I think there will be an "accommodation". Not everything in life is black and white.

[IAMHERE]

I always thought those joint exercises were pretty much worthless. Just an opportunity for some military brass from the USA to go to Korea and get good scotch and good whores for a week or two. This objecting from NK must mean there is at least some value to those exercises.

[Trouble]

10 hours ago, Grouse said:

The "end game" is a reunited Korea without a Vietnam war!

 

If that means the USA pulling back to Japan, so be it. Why would South Korea want the USA to remain after a reunification?

 

All this "reds under the bed" stuff is so passé 

 

I think Putin can quite nicely balance China if he so wishes!

There will be no reunification, that's only talk.  The South will not sacrifice its people and economy to have a reunification under a Kim dictatorship and the Kim will certainly not give up his dictatorship to integrate into the South.  At best they can hope for a peace treaty and normalize relations which help strengthen the North's economy. Kim probably wants a better economy while keeping absolute control of the country.  Reunification is just not a practical solution at this point in time.  Maybe in 50 years, who knows?

[Srikcir]

8 hours ago, Aj Mick said:

Little wonder that the North Korean's have pushed back.

And continues:

"But if they try to push us into a corner and force only unilateral nuclear abandonment , we will no longer be interested in that kind of talks and will have to reconsider ... the upcoming summit."

And warning:

"It is absurd to dare to compare (North Korea), a nuclear weapon state, to Libya which had been at the initial stage of nuclear development" ... "(The) world knows too well that our country is neither Libya nor Iraq which have met miserable fate."

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/15/asia/north-korea-trump-talks-intl/index.html

North that Korea could also have included Trump's withdrawal from the Iran nuclear deal. Maybe that will come as a separate stance to continued maintenance of a North Korean nuclear deterrence to counter any US unilateral change in any peace deal.

[lannarebirth]

11 minutes ago, Trouble said:

There will be no reunification, that's only talk.  The South will not sacrifice its people and economy to have a reunification under a Kim dictatorship and the Kim will certainly not give up his dictatorship to integrate into the South.  At best they can hope for a peace treaty and normalize relations which help strengthen the North's economy. Kim probably wants a better economy while keeping absolute control of the country.  Reunification is just not a practical solution at this point in time.  Maybe in 50 years, who knows?

 

Can you just imagine how psychologically damaged the NK population is? Gonna take a couple of generations to sort that, at least.

[Grouse]

37 minutes ago, Trouble said:

There will be no reunification, that's only talk.  The South will not sacrifice its people and economy to have a reunification under a Kim dictatorship and the Kim will certainly not give up his dictatorship to integrate into the South.  At best they can hope for a peace treaty and normalize relations which help strengthen the North's economy. Kim probably wants a better economy while keeping absolute control of the country.  Reunification is just not a practical solution at this point in time.  Maybe in 50 years, who knows?

Just like Vietnam then?

 

I don't intend to drift off topic but I can assure you that majority of Vietnamese just wanted their own country without colonial powers whether French, Japanese or American. They accepted assistance where it could be found. If I read the runes correctly, the Koreans are no different

Edited May 16, 2018 by Grouse

[Scouse123]

41 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Just like Vietnam then?

 

I don't intend to drift off topic but I can assure you that majority of Vietnamese just wanted their own country without colonial powers whether French, Japanese or American. They accepted assistance where it could be found. If I read the runes correctly, the Koreans are no different

 

North and South Vietnam were at odds, as you probably know, with a proxy war being staged by the USA and USSR on Vietnamese soil as well as that of Cambodia and Laos. This lasted from the mid-fifties after the French left to the early seventies, around 1973. Whichever way you cut it, it lasted in the region of 20 years with a country split down Communist and Western lines.

 

North and South Korea are a million miles different to that situation. They have been separated for over 70 years, the North being run and controlled by another despot family member from a despotic regime. The South has progressed beyond belief in comparison. The gap is just too wide to bridge unless Kim Jong Un and cronies depart, which they won't be doing in a hurry. I feel you are trying to compare Apples and Oranges if you are thinking along the lines you mention with Vietnam and Korea.

 

The task at reunification would be mammoth in comparison to Vietnam or even Germany. I certainly don't see any accommodations happening either. I think Kim wants to modernize, increase and boost his economy, bring the country into the 21st century and be recognized. I certainly do not think he has any intentions of compromising his position any shape or form for the foreseeable future.

[bristolboy]

7 hours ago, sweatalot said:

... and you believe Kim is not petulant and unpredictable???

Actually, I think the evidence shows that Kim is very calculating. Remember how just a short time ago it was all about him being a mad dog. Now he's got Trump panting for a photo-op and dreaming of a Nobel Prize.. Pompeo is now saying that Kim has to give up nuclear weapons that threaten the USA but says nothing about nuclear weapons North Korea has that could threaten its neighbors. I think the self styled great negotiator is being played.

[farcanell]

1 hour ago, Trouble said:

There will be no reunification, that's only talk.  The South will not sacrifice its people and economy to have a reunification under a Kim dictatorship and the Kim will certainly not give up his dictatorship to integrate into the South.  At best they can hope for a peace treaty and normalize relations which help strengthen the North's economy. Kim probably wants a better economy while keeping absolute control of the country.  Reunification is just not a practical solution at this point in time.  Maybe in 50 years, who knows?

Mmmm.... a divided Germany springs to mind.... one side was dirt poor, the other not so poor

[farcanell]

4 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

What would you have the USA concede to the North Koreans? And for that matter, what actual concessions have the North Koreans undertaken?

A moratorium of overt acts which NK sees as a threat.... things which we all know that they see as a threat... like war games with SK

 

but no..... 

 

quite obviously a bit of diplomacy would have gone a long way, instead of continuing with the Sabre rattling, once Kim had agreed to start the process of leading the reclusive NK out of its current ultra adversarial state.

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Just like Vietnam then?

 

I don't intend to drift off topic but I can assure you that majority of Vietnamese just wanted their own country without colonial powers whether French, Japanese or American. They accepted assistance where it could be found. If I read the runes correctly, the Koreans are no different

except of course that north and south vietnam were neither of them developed economies. South Korea is one of the world's leading industrial and technologically advanced nations. Whereas North Korea is economically the least developed nation in Asia. In addition to which family ties that may once have existed between Koreans who actually knew each other are disappearing rapidly  now along with the Koreans who lived through the war.

[lannarebirth]

4 minutes ago, farcanell said:

A moratorium of overt acts which NK sees as a threat.... things which we all know that they see as a threat... like war games with SK

 

but no..... 

 

quite obviously a bit of diplomacy would have gone a long way, instead of continuing with the Sabre rattling, once Kim had agreed to start the process of leading the reclusive NK out of its current ultra adversarial state.

Last we heard from NK they were testing nuclear weapons and lobbing ballistic missles over friendly neighbors. They say they want to denuclearize but not give up their nuclear weapons. You may not consider those overt acts but I'm sure their neighbors do.

 

What has happened in the history of negotiations and areements with North Korea that leads you to believe that you can take them at their word?

[farcanell]

32 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

Last we heard from NK they were testing nuclear weapons and lobbing ballistic missles over friendly neighbors. They say they want to denuclearize but not give up their nuclear weapons. You may not consider those overt acts but I'm sure their neighbors do.

 

What has happened in the history of negotiations and areements with North Korea that leads you to believe that you can take them at their word?

Last we heard from NK was lobbying missles.... ok.... perhaps true.... which hi lights that we haven’t heard that they want to denuclearize.... we have heard the liar in chief, who hasn’t had a face to face with Kim, say that, but has Kim?

 

And... why would they give up their weopons, ahead of a treaty... to a country who is led by a leader, who is running around breaking agreements between his nation, and others, including his allies... that would be beyond stupid, of NK

 

whats happened... well... my guess, which is as good as some, less than others blah blah, would be that NK now has a bargaining chip, which will improve its position against an enemy who is still at war with it.... (you know... cease fire vs treaty)

 

a sane president would have suspended overt acts of hostility to foster the peace process.... that this was not done reflects the worth of us foreign policy under trump, who has, in a much shorter timeframe, demonstrated that he cannot be trusted

 

and... do tell... which deal or agreement has Kim broken ( trump lots... but Kim?)

[lannarebirth]

22 minutes ago, farcanell said:

 

 

And... why would they give up their weopons, ahead of a treaty... to a country who is led by a leader, who is running around breaking agreements between his nation, and others, including his allies... that would be beyond stupid, of NK.....

 

 

 

and... do tell... which deal or agreement has Kim broken ( trump lots... but Kim?)

 

So you're saying it would be "beyond stupid" of NK to give up what they feel is their strongest bargaining chip prior to good faith negotiations taking place. Yeah, I get that

 

Sanctions and the very real specter of regime change (albeit with many casualties), and untold wealth for Kim are what the other side has in its arsenal. Why would they give any of that up based on the word of an untrustworthy regime.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-talks-factbox/factbox-history-of-failure-efforts-to-negotiate-on-north-korean-disarmament-idUSKCN1GI2PQ

Edited May 16, 2018 by lannarebirth

[janclaes47]

14 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

16 hours ago, stevenl said:

If correct, knowing they will be seen as a provocation, they should have been cancelled or postponed.

 

And send the message to a petulant unpredictable dictator that he can demand whatever he wants, and get it?

He didn't demand anything, it should have been common sense to at least postpone the exercises until after the summit.

 

I don't often agree with fatty, but he has shown his willingness on a few occasions in the past month, so the exercises are pure provocation.

[farcanell]

24 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

So you're saying it would be "beyond stupid" of NK to give up what they feel is their strongest bargaining chip prior to good faith negotiations taking place. Yeah, I get that

 

Sanctions and the very real specter of regime change (albeit with many casualties), and untold wealth for Kim are what the other side has in its arsenal. Why would they give any of that up based on the word of an untrustworthy regime.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-talks-factbox/factbox-history-of-failure-efforts-to-negotiate-on-north-korean-disarmament-idUSKCN1GI2PQ

So you agree with my point of view.

 

your link, certainly does, including comments to the effect that NK has no intention of unilaterally giving up nukes

 

(if you’re not agreeing with me, your second paragraph is  probably irrelevant, as I doubt Kim wants for anything)

Edited May 16, 2018 by farcanell

[bristolboy]

24 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

So you're saying it would be "beyond stupid" of NK to give up what they feel is their strongest bargaining chip prior to good faith negotiations taking place. Yeah, I get that

 

Sanctions and the very real specter of regime change (albeit with many casualties), and untold wealth for Kim are what the other side has in its arsenal. Why would they give any of that up based on the word of an untrustworthy regime.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-talks-factbox/factbox-history-of-failure-efforts-to-negotiate-on-north-korean-disarmament-idUSKCN1GI2PQ

Kim  has nuclear weapons, biological weapons and chemical weapons. Why would he give any of that up based on the word of an untrustworthy regime?

[lannarebirth]

Just now, farcanell said:

So you agree with my point of view.

 

your link, certainly does, including comments to the effect that NK has no intention of unilaterally giving up nuked.

 

(if you’re not agreeing with me, your second paragraph is  probably irrelevant, as I doubt Kim wants for anything)

 

I think he wants to live, and the path he has been on recently does not insure that. 

[lannarebirth]

3 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Kim  has nuclear weapons, biological weapons and chemical weapons. Why would he give any of that up based on the word of an untrustworthy regime?

I don't think he will. I think diplomatic efforts if there ever are any, fill fail. I think I've been pretty clear about that. I hope I'm wrong.

Edited May 16, 2018 by lannarebirth

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, lannarebirth said:

 

I think he wants to live, and the path he has been on recently does not insure that. 

Whereas the path followed by Khadaffi, so eloquently recommended by John Bolton as an example to follow, does?

[lannarebirth]

Just now, bristolboy said:

Whereas the path followed by Khadaffi, so eloquently recommended by John Bolton as an example to follow, does?

 

No, I'm not saying that. I think things are at an impasse.  I think a miscalculation by either side could lead to a significant military conflict. You sure love to put words in people's mouths.

[farcanell]

9 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

I think he wants to live, and the path he has been on recently does not insure that. 

Why..... because he’s fat and may die of a heart attack, like his father, at age 70?

[farcanell]

7 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

No, I'm not saying that. I think things are at an impasse.  I think a miscalculation by either side could lead to a significant military conflict. You sure love to put words in people's mouths.

Yes... a miscalculation like holding overtly threatening war games, which could undermine Kim, in front of his people....

 

or like trump telling the world that if he doesn’t get his way, he will walk, which again, undermines Kim’s efforts in front of his people....

 

or like reinstituting sanctions against Iran, despite everyone else’s determination not to, thereby appearing like a rogue nation... undermining us credibility

 

or economically attacking China....

 

or... well.... stuff like that... stuff which Kim has not done

[lannarebirth]

1 minute ago, farcanell said:

Yes... a miscalculation like holding overtly threatening war games, which could undermine Kim, in front of his people....

 

or like trump telling the world that if he doesn’t get his way, he will walk, which again, undermines Kim’s efforts in front of his people....

 

or like reinstituting sanctions against Iran, despite everyone else’s determination not to, thereby appearing like a rogue nation... undermining us credibility

 

or economically attacking China....

 

or... well.... stuff like that... stuff which Kim has not done

 

Well, if tose doesn't produce any results, I would expect "stuff like that" to get ramped up, to include China. Don't confuse what I think should happen with what I think will happen. My feelings are irrelevant, as are yours.

[bristolboy]

5 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

No, I'm not saying that. I think things are at an impasse.  I think a miscalculation by either side could lead to a significant military conflict. You sure love to put words in people's mouths.

I guess my misunderstanding, if that's what it is, was occasioned by your use of "recent". Was that intended to describe the NK decision several weeks ago to pursue negotiations that seemed to include the possibility of its unilateral nuclear disarmament, or what happened a few days ago, it's apparent repudiation of unilateral nuclear disarmament?

[wayned]

IMHO Kim's ultimate goal is to remain in power for a long long time.  Then that A**hole Bolton says on National TV

C that he thinks that the Korean deal should fall into the "Libya Model".  Right, unilateral denuclearize and death a few years later by rebels.  I think that if I were KIm I would be pissed. 

 

There should be one voice, that of the Secretary of State Pompeo and Bolton should exit stage right and go back to fox News and take Guiliani with him!

 

Trump should have postponed the planned military drills with South Korea until after the KIm summit and stuffed a dirty sock in Bolton's mouth.