keeping track of foreigners NEW.

[MalandLee]

https://thethaiger.com/news/keeping-track-foreigners-thailand-new-e-passport-data-used

 

Appeared on a number of sites today (2018 May 17) - if the above site is banned, my apologies.

 

If we can dispense with the TM6 then perhaps it is one bureaucratic hurdle less to jump?.

 

However, there is always the small print and the REAL "intent"

[Get Real]

The REAL intent????

As I see it. If you are a non criminal tourist or expat in Thailand, you will not have to care about that.
Do you really think that they not have other more complexed ways to find you if they really wanted?

[ubonjoe]

Not new "By The Thaiger & The Nation February 14, 2018" as shown on the article.

It was posted in news section back then and was discussed there.

[NanLaew]

39 minutes ago, MalandLee said:

Appeared on a number of sites today (2018 May 17)

...although the original article in the nation is about 3 months old.

 

I guess my failed passport flip at Swampy last Friday did get some media traction after all.

[MalandLee]

18 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Not new "By The Thaiger & The Nation February 14, 2018" as shown on the article.

It was posted in news section back then and was discussed there.

Foreigners to be tracked by Defence Ministry

    17 May 2018 at 11:10 | 98 viewed | 0 comments

Did not see the date on the site referenced, however, ONE of your (TV)  banned sites carried it as a new article, with the above headline - spelling mistakes and all :-) - . There are subtle differences in the wording on the two sites - I used the above URL because of the ban.

[Sheryl]

My only concern re this is the part about hotels etc entering into the database too...specifically if it will then mean having to do a TM30 after every within-country overnight trip.

 

As it is, I am having to do some 15-20 TM30s a year (for myself and Cambodian household staff). Each and every time with a mountain of substantiating documentation to support my being the "housemaster".  They virtually need a separate store room at local imm. office just for the multiple copies of my chanote, landlease, tabian ban etc. 

 

Currently I do this after every re-entry into the country but I have not been doing it after short domestic overnight trips.

[ubonjoe]

11 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

My only concern re this is the part about hotels etc entering into the database too...specifically if it will then mean having to do a TM30 after every within-country overnight trip.

Hotels and ect are already doing the reports online. They are stored in a database that can be accessed by immigration. Not sure if TM30 reports done at immigration are also put in the database.

I don't think that part will be any different than what it is now.

Only the most pedant offices have gone so far as wanting TM30 reports for trips within the country. 

I wonder if they will let me trash my 10 year old ragged TM6 form after they are no longer required.

[OJAS]

All part of an internationally-driven agenda, I strongly suspect, with the relevant powers-that-be across this great planet of ours inevitably reluctant to spill too many of the beans about the wider global picture to us humble minions on security grounds.

 

The day will surely soon be coming when any immigration officer anywhere on this great planet of ours will be able to access an individual's travel history, regardless of their nationality, merely by swiping the hieroglyphs at the foot of their passport photopage through a scanner.

[Mattd]

9 minutes ago, OJAS said:

The day will surely soon be coming when any immigration officer anywhere on this great planet of ours will be able to access an individual's travel history, regardless of their nationality, merely by swiping the hieroglyphs at the foot of their passport photopage through a scanner.

Sooner than you think probably, it would not be that difficult to implement this in to the passport itself electronically.

[InfinityandBeyond]

6 hours ago, Mattd said:

Sooner than you think probably, it would not be that difficult to implement this in to the passport itself electronically.

Already done. My passport carries an RFID chip. Identified by this insignia on the front cover. Yours may be the same. Have a look. 

Edited May 17, 2018 by InfinityandBeyond
Amendment

[1812]

11 hours ago, MalandLee said:

If we can dispense with the TM6 then perhaps it is one bureaucratic hurdle less to jump?

Australia has an electronic arrival/departure system for most foreigners but still require an arrival card to be completed 

[gk10002000]

It really is kind of silly because any "threats" to Thailand are much more likely to be from internal Thais, not foreigners coming in to steal military or state secrets.  Now nothing wrong with having some immigration policies and checks on foreigners.  All countries should be able to do that.  But they are seemingly spending lots of time and money chasing small issues.

[OJAS]

9 hours ago, 1812 said:

Australia has an electronic arrival/departure system for most foreigners but still require an arrival card to be completed 

As does the UK in the case of non-EU nationals (and maybe EU nationals as well eventually??).

 

8 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

But they are seemingly spending lots of time and money chasing small issues.

As, arguably, is practically every other country on this great planet of ours, I think.

[Mattd]

12 hours ago, InfinityandBeyond said:

Already done. My passport carries an RFID chip. Identified by this insignia on the front cover. Yours may be the same. Have a look. 

99% of passports issued worldwide are now biometric, as denoted by that sign, right now the only biometric info in the chip is the same information that is on the cover (photo) page, in the future they could easily adapt it to contain your travel history. A lot of countries are moving away from stamping the passport, Hong Kong being a local example.

Any e-gate enabled entry also doesn't leave a physical trace in the passport.

[007 RED]

12 hours ago, InfinityandBeyond said:

Already done. My passport carries an RFID chip. Identified by this insignia on the front cover. Yours may be the same. Have a look. 

FYI – Currently over 160 countries issue passports that have a microchip embedded into it as per the UN - International Civil Aviation Standards Organisation (9303 Machine Readable Travel Documents Sixth Addition). 

 

Although these passports are commonly referred to as biometric passports, they in fact do not hold any biometric data (finger prints; iris scan; or other physical features) about the passport the holder currently.   The information that is currently held on the chip is identical to that which is presented on the photo page of the passport, including the photo of the holder. 

 

The information held on the chip is encrypted and can only be embedded onto the chip with high security ‘writers’ and software that are only available to the passport issuing authorities.  The purpose of the chip is to make it more difficult to forge/fake a passport and, therefore, easier for boarder control agencies to detect such fakes/forgeries.

 

The information on the chip can be read by most non-contact readers, including some smart phones.  However, in order to read the information, the reading device must be provide with a ‘public key’ to unlock the encryption.  This is obtained by placing the passport onto a normal optical scanner and reading that information at the bottom of the photo page between <<<< >>>>.  By using certain parts of that information (e.g. date of birth and the first letters of the family name) plus a complex algorithm a key is established to unlock the encryption.

 

Currently the UN (in the ICAO Document 9303 - Seventh Edition) is proposing to allow passport issuing authorities to introduce biographical data onto the chip such as finger prints, iris scans, and other physical features of the passport holder (e.g. height and distinguishing makers etc.).  These proposals are currently under discussion/consultation amongst the ICAO members and it is anticipated that approval for these additional features will be given by the end of this year.  There are currently no thoughts of adding additional information such as criminal history or previous names etc.

[MaeJoMTB]

18 hours ago, OJAS said:

The day will surely soon be coming when any immigration officer anywhere on this great planet of ours will be able to access an individual's travel history, regardless of their nationality, merely by swiping the hieroglyphs at the foot of their passport photopage through a scanner.

Unlikely,

Countries aren't all that friendly, have different computer systems, and often refuse to co-operate with each other.

Globalization may happen in the distant future, but even then there will probably be several different 'blocs' mutually antagonistic.

Travel history, just Europe, there are no borders in the EU, and no way of tracking  where you've been, that's 30 countries with no records. 

[007 RED]

To be honest this is another ‘pie in the sky’ idea to make it sound/look like the Ministry of Defence are in total control.  The physical and technological resources need fulfil this dream is far beyond even the most advanced countries in the world.  So what chance has Thailand 0.4 got?

 

Whatever happened to the other wonderful ideas that have been floated by this government recently:–

 

 Tourists being issued with wrist bands so that they can be tracked in an emergency? 

 

 Tourists being required to obtain trackable SIM cards?

 

I don’t think anyone needs to lose any sleep over this fantasy.  More than likely 'shelved' in a couple of weeks like the other bright ideas.

[Kasset Tak]

36 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

FYI – Currently over 160 countries issue passports that have a microchip embedded into it as per the UN - International Civil Aviation Standards Organisation (9303 Machine Readable Travel Documents Sixth Addition). 

 

Although these passports are commonly referred to as biometric passports, they in fact do not hold any biometric data (finger prints; iris scan; or other physical features) about the passport the holder currently.   The information that is currently held on the chip is identical to that which is presented on the photo page of the passport, including the photo of the holder. 

 

The information held on the chip is encrypted and can only be embedded onto the chip with high security ‘writers’ and software that are only available to the passport issuing authorities.  The purpose of the chip is to make it more difficult to forge/fake a passport and, therefore, easier for boarder control agencies to detect such fakes/forgeries.

 

The information on the chip can be read by most non-contact readers, including some smart phones.  However, in order to read the information, the reading device must be provide with a ‘public key’ to unlock the encryption.  This is obtained by placing the passport onto a normal optical scanner and reading that information at the bottom of the photo page between <<<< >>>>.  By using certain parts of that information (e.g. date of birth and the first letters of the family name) plus a complex algorithm a key is established to unlock the encryption.

 

Currently the UN (in the ICAO Document 9303 - Seventh Edition) is proposing to allow passport issuing authorities to introduce biographical data onto the chip such as finger prints, iris scans, and other physical features of the passport holder (e.g. height and distinguishing makers etc.).  These proposals are currently under discussion/consultation amongst the ICAO members and it is anticipated that approval for these additional features will be given by the end of this year.  There are currently no thoughts of adding additional information such as criminal history or previous names etc.

I'm not sure about the "not containing biometric data" part. When I apply for a new passport they include my fingerprints (all 10 fingers), height (no weight...) and some other stuff digitally in to the file sent to the passport manufacturer, so I believe that at least some countries already put biometrics in their passports! 

[FritsSikkink]

53 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

To be honest this is another ‘pie in the sky’ idea to make it sound/look like the Ministry of Defence are in total control.  The physical and technological resources need fulfil this dream is far beyond even the most advanced countries in the world.  So what chance has Thailand 0.4 got?

 

Whatever happened to the other wonderful ideas that have been floated by this government recently:–

 

 Tourists being issued with wrist bands so that they can be tracked in an emergency? 

 

 Tourists being required to obtain trackable SIM cards?

 

I don’t think anyone needs to lose any sleep over this fantasy.  More than likely 'shelved' in a couple of weeks like the other bright ideas.

"The physical and technological resources need fulfil this dream is far beyond even the most advanced countries in the world. " Actually it isn't and we are close to implement it with our first customer.

[KhunBENQ]

Not much surprise here.

Can't remember how long they wrote about this topic.

Ending methods like using new fresh passport to get rid of the red stamps in the old one.

Changing first name etc. pp.

 

Try to enter the USA as a European with a non biometric/electronic passport.

Google ESTA to learn what "tracking" means if you are not familiar.

Chip cards in passports are far from new.

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by KhunBENQ

[007 RED]

2 hours ago, Kasset Tak said:

I'm not sure about the "not containing biometric data" part. When I apply for a new passport they include my fingerprints (all 10 fingers), height (no weight...) and some other stuff digitally in to the file sent to the passport manufacturer, so I believe that at least some countries already put biometrics in their passports! 

Interesting.  I am aware that some countries do require applicants for new/replacement passports to submit biographical data, but my understanding is that this is only used in the application verification process and is not currently embedded on the chip.

 

Can you enlighten me as to which country you are from?

 

FYI – As mentioned in my earlier post, some smart phones are able to read the data held on the chip.  If you search Google Play store you will find an app that reads the so called biometric data.  I would be interested to know if your passport has any true biographical data embedded in it.

[holy cow cm]

On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 12:32 PM, Get Real said:

The REAL intent????

As I see it. If you are a non criminal tourist or expat in Thailand, you will not have to care about that.
Do you really think that they not have other more complexed ways to find you if they really wanted?

Sorry, I value my come and go where ever I like to be personal. There is no way they should be able to GPS or chip or over see and breathe down our necks like this. It is called communism at best. 

[007 RED]

1 hour ago, KhunBENQ said:

........

Try to enter the USA as a European with a non biometric/electronic passport.

Google ESTA to learn what "tracking" means if you are not familiar.

Chip cards in passports are far from new.

 

You are quite correct in that you will not be able to use a passport by any of the EU countries that does not have a so called biometric chip embedded in it.  The reason for this being that the EU countries started embedding the chip into all new passports issued in 2006, so any document that was issued prior to that year has now expired as most passports only have a 'life' of 10 years.

 

The ESTA has nothing to do with the chip in your passport.  It is simply an electronic application process to enter the US for citizens of countries who may qualify for entry without a visa.  The only tracking available is for an applicant to see (track) the status of their application.

 

As I indicated in my earlier post, the chip currently only contains the same information as that contained on the photo page of the passport and is currently used to make it more difficult to fake/forge and easier for boarder control agencies to detect fake/forged travel documents.

Edited May 18, 2018 by 007 RED
Typo error

[Kasset Tak]

3 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

Interesting.  I am aware that some countries do require applicants for new/replacement passports to submit biographical data, but my understanding is that this is only used in the application verification process and is not currently embedded on the chip.

 

Can you enlighten me as to which country you are from?

 

FYI – As mentioned in my earlier post, some smart phones are able to read the data held on the chip.  If you search Google Play store you will find an app that reads the so called biometric data.  I would be interested to know if your passport has any true biographical data embedded in it.

I'm from Sweden.
At least I'm lucky when it comes to applying and getting a new passport as it usually just take 7 working days (or less) from when I apply until I can pick it up at the embassy. That is to compare to some countries that take up to 3 months!

[Get Real]

53 minutes ago, holy cow cm said:

Sorry, I value my come and go where ever I like to be personal. There is no way they should be able to GPS or chip or over see and breathe down our necks like this. It is called communism at best. 

I am sorry to say, but what you still value as something personal is actually something that disappeared 10-20 years ago. It´s just that todays wide spread modern technology makes you more aware of what always has been done. Sorry to burst your bubble, but they have been tracking you with everything you have been using that in any way have been connected to a computer for decades.

Why do you htink you hear the talk about living off the grid so much? Not even that is something new. So, Ijust take a wild step out in the unknown and scream "Holy Cow! Wake up for god sake!" 

[holy cow cm]

3 minutes ago, Get Real said:

I am sorry to say, but what you still value as something personal is actually something that disappeared 10-20 years ago. It´s just that todays wide spread modern technology makes you more aware of what always has been done. Sorry to burst your bubble, but they have been tracking you with everything you have been using that in any way have been connected to a computer for decades.

Why do you htink you hear the talk about living off the grid so much? Not even that is something new. So, Ijust take a wild step out in the unknown and scream "Holy Cow! Wake up for god sake!" 

Sorry to say back to you, but the upgrades of technology here are just coming full round as catching up to the full loss of freedom. Yes we are trackable by cell triangulation but I also always have my GPs off. So this is only a pinpointed area. what we are about to lose is total freedom here as they are in mode to track our cell phones and track us by face recognition as china is using now. Just as 7-11 will use face recognition for their customers coming up for sales tactics, I will also be avoiding 7-11 on principal. 

 

Our freedom is not 100% here and this is a given, but what they are talking about is tag-em and bag-em into the where you are at all times information traceable system. It is good I am not like my old days cowboy personality as I would hate to see how that looks on paper. He went here at ..., he went here at ...., then he went to a quickie hotel at ....., then 3 hours later back to a girlie bar at ..... finally he is back at his hotel at.... 24 hours after he went out. 

[MaeJoMTB]

5 minutes ago, holy cow cm said:

track us by face recognition as china is using now.

Was in China last year, if there were any cameras tracking me, I didn't see them, or any officials looking interested in me.

I suspect China is more free than the USA or Europe.

Nobody showed any interest at all in where I was going or what I was doing.

Edited May 18, 2018 by MaeJoMTB

[holy cow cm]

6 minutes ago, MaeJoMTB said:

Was in China last year, if there were any cameras tracking me, I didn't see them, or any officials looking interested in me.

I suspect China is more free than the USA or Europe.

Nobody showed any interest at all in where I was going or what I was doing.

Just been this year implementing the system. I think it was the BBC that did a trial a few months on it to track locate him once out of the hotel. Took the system 3 minutes.

[MaeJoMTB]

Just now, holy cow cm said:

Just been this year implementing the system. I think it was the BBC that did a trial a few months on it to track locate him once out of the hotel. Took the system 3 minutes.

Wear a hoodie, leave your phone at home ....... job done.

[holy cow cm]

6 minutes ago, MaeJoMTB said:

Wear a hoodie, leave your phone at home ....... job done.

I have to agree with you on this one. I have considered it! I don't need to carry a phone most times or can just turn it off and on at my own will..