UK short stay visa for wife declined

[bobrussell]

It does look bad but this happened over 10 years ago and this visa is for a short visit presumably accompanying a spouse.

I am assuming that being married for two years both are living in Thailand. That has not actually been made clear in the original post.

A 10 year ban for something that happened over a decade ago does seem disproportionate unless the ECO believes there was an attempt to deceive this time. The application form does not ask for any information over ten years old therefore it would seem inappropriate for a penalty to be introduced at this stage.

There is every reason why an ECO would scrutinise this application with great care and expect significant reasons to return before issuing a visa.

If the OP is UK based then perhaps I would be extremely cautious should I be making the decision. I may have missed this in later posts.

If the punishment is for the overstay then it is crazy to inflict it ten years on. If the punishment is for failure to disclose when there was no request to disclose then it is also dodgy.

The purpose of visa processing is to weigh up the risks of the applicant not complying.

 

[jenny2017]

2 hours ago, Russell17au said:

The question that I would like answered is how did she leave the UK on an expired passport with out the airline refusing to allow her to board the aircraft without a current passport plus how did she get through immigration on an expired passport as you must present your boarding pass and your passport when leaving the country and then claiming that she was not notified about her overstay until she arrived back in Thailand.

Sorry this story has too many things that do not add up. There is a lot more to this story that is not being told by either the OP our his wife. You cannot travel anywhere in the world with an expired passport.

You're spot on and I also believe that the whole story is..well, just a story.

 

[Rc2702]

Are you certain she was not deported?

 

This story does appear to have a lot of holes in it starky.

 

 

 

 

[7by7]

2 hours ago, Russell17au said:

The question that I would like answered is how did she leave the UK on an expired passport with out the airline refusing to allow her to board the aircraft without a current passport plus how did she get through immigration on an expired passport as you must present your boarding pass and your passport when leaving the country...………

 

33 minutes ago, jenny2017 said:

You're spot on and I also believe that the whole story is..well, just a story

 

 1) Passports are not routinely checked by UK immigration when leaving the UK.

 

2) Airlines do check passports when passengers check in; to ensure that they have the necessary documents to be admitted at their destination.

 

3) Thai passport holders can enter Thailand using an expired Thai passport.

 

4) Airlines know this and so are happy to carry Thai passport holders to Thailand even if travelling on an expired Thai passport.

[7by7]

1 hour ago, nigel starkey said:

Her passport expired on the 12th Oct. 2009

 Errr….

 

16 hours ago, nigel starkey said:

Her passport expired in 2007 and she hasn't renewed,

 

Which is it?

[7by7]

56 minutes ago, bobrussell said:

It does look bad but this happened over 10 years ago and this visa is for a short visit presumably accompanying a spouse....………..The application form does not ask for any information over ten years old therefore it would seem inappropriate for a penalty to be introduced at this stage.

Possibly over 10 years ago, just; possibly almost 10 years ago. There is confusion over the date she actually left the UK.

 

If the latter then she should have put it on the form.

 

57 minutes ago, bobrussell said:

A 10 year ban for something that happened over a decade ago does seem disproportionate

Her ban for overstaying, assuming she is subject to one, did not start now; it would have started when she left the UK after her overstay.

1 hour ago, bobrussell said:

unless the ECO believes there was an attempt to deceive this time

Indeed, and to know that we need to see the refusal notice.

 

@nigel starkey, can you post that; first removing all names and other identifying information?

[Scott]

Off-topic post and reply reported and removed.

[BEVUP]

8 hours ago, Rc2702 said:

Are you certain she was not deported?

 

This story does appear to have a lot of holes in it starky.

 

 

 

 

I don't think he will ever get a straight answer

Now we find out PP exp in 2009 

I reckon she was deported for working illegally 

 

& she knows all, but will do anything to go back to England 

 

Also she would of had to maybe have a return flight for the Tourist Visa (3 or 6 mths ), so what happened to the return bit (keep extending until go back )

Or did her friends buy her one because loved looking after her for 2 yrs 

 

* Wife's relo was trying to get to Germany ( I'm sure refused twice ) now probably no hope anywhere 

Edited May 25, 2018 by BEVUP

[nigel starkey]

10 hours ago, bobrussell said:

I would advise contacting a good immigration specialist especially if the 10 year ban applies from the date of this application. The ECO (and presumably his/her manager) has to have reason to believe there was an attempt to deceive. I am taking everything said at face value but if there was a genuine reason to believe what you did was correct then it is worthwhile requesting reconsideration. 

You would need to be very specific about why you believed the overstay did not need to be disclosed. I have not seen recent application forms but the old VAF1 does clearly ask about a ten year period for previous applications and travel history. If this is the same on-line and travel and overstay was over ten years ago then I cannot see why this was refused as indeed UKVI have not asked. It would have made sense to disclose it in the other information part but I don't see where deception comes into it. 

The forum sponsors are a good place to start. They are registered specialists in the UK as well as working in Thailand.

I don't agree this is hopeless but it would require a bit of understanding from UKVI staff. 

Sorry - did a bit of rethinking and editing!

Thanks for your comments. Can you give me any addresses or phone numbers thanks.

Edited May 25, 2018 by nigel starkey

[nigel starkey]

8 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 Errr….

 

 

Which is it?

Sorry I stand corrected. The former expired Oct 2009 

[nigel starkey]

8 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 Errr….

 

 

Which is it?

Correction pp exp. 11/10/2009

[nigel starkey]

8 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

 

 1) Passports are not routinely checked by UK immigration when leaving the UK.

 

2) Airlines do check passports when passengers check in; to ensure that they have the necessary documents to be admitted at their destination.

 

3) Thai passport holders can enter Thailand using an expired Thai passport.

 

4) Airlines know this and so are happy to carry Thai passport holders to Thailand even if travelling on an expired Thai passport.

 

42 minutes ago, BEVUP said:

I don't think he will ever get a straight answer

Now we find out PP exp in 2009 

I reckon she was deported for working illegally 

 

& she knows all, but will do anything to go back to England 

 

Also she would of had to maybe have a return flight for the Tourist Visa (3 or 6 mths ), so what happened to the return bit (keep extending until go back )

Or did her friends buy her one because loved looking after her for 2 yrs 

 

* Wife's relo was trying to get to Germany ( I'm sure refused twice ) now probably no hope anywhere 

We have the passport and there is nothing stamped in to suggest deportation. Only arrival stamps for UK and Thailand.

[Mattd]

5 minutes ago, nigel starkey said:

Correction pp exp. 11/10/2009

Are you 100% certain that your wife left the UK more than 10 years ago, i.e. more than 10 years before the visa application was submitted?

Reading through the guidance provided by the Government for the ECO's and regarding previous overstays, then none of this makes much sense if it was over 10 years ago.

According to what I can read then a new visa application can be considered and approved if the circumstances have changed sufficiently, IF the person overstayed and left under the following conditions: 

 

1. (7B) where the applicant has previously breached the UK’s immigration laws (and was 18 or over at the time of his most recent breach)by:
   1. (a) Overstaying;
   2. (b) breaching a condition attached to his leave;
   3. (c) being an Illegal Entrant;
   4. (d) using Deception in an application for entry clearance, leave to enter or remain, or in order to obtain documents from the Secretary of State or a third party required in support of the application (whether successful or not);

1. unless the applicant:
   1. (i) overstayed for-
      1. (a) 90 days or less, where the overstaying began before 6 April 2017: or
      2. (b) 30 days or less, where the overstaying began on or after 6 April 2017
      3. and in either case, left the UK voluntarily, not at the expense (directly or indirectly) of the Secretary of State;
   2. (ii) used Deception in an application for entry clearance, leave to enter or remain, or in order to obtain documents from the Secretary of State or a third party required in support of the application more than 10 years ago;
   3. (iii) left the UK voluntarily, not at the expense (directly or indirectly) of the Secretary of State, more than 12 months ago;
   4. (iv) left the UK voluntarily, at the expense (directly or indirectly) of the Secretary of State, more than 2 years ago; and the date the person left the UK was no more than 6 months after the date on which the person was given notice of liability for removal, or no more than 6 months after the date on which the person no longer had a pending appeal or administrative review; whichever is the later;
   5. (v) left the UK voluntarily, at the expense (directly or indirectly) of the Secretary of State, more than 5 years ago;
   6. (vi) was removed or deported from the UK more than 10 years ago or;
   7. (vii) left or was removed from the UK as a condition of a caution issued in accordance with section 22 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 more than 5 years ago.

Where more than one breach of the UK’s immigration laws has occurred, only the breach which leads to the longest period of absence from the UK will be relevant under this paragraph.

 

Bold and underlined being the applicable parts.

The guidelines of what is the ECOs procedure if deception is suspected - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/deception-in-an-application-rfl04-paragraph-3207a/deception-in-an-application-rfl04-paragraph-3207a

 

[theoldgit]

Off topic posts removed.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[bobrussell]

these notes are guidance notes for the ECO. They are not mirrored on the application form (unless the on-line form is different) as the questions asked only relate to the applicant in the last ten years.

It is therefore perfectly possible to fill in the form in good faith without including the overstay information. Getting a form wrong is not the same as attempting to deceive.

The timings are critical here. If the overstay or any part of it was within the last ten years then defence is difficult as it should have been disclosed. 

The old printed form (used now for N Korea as far as I am aware) does not ask for history over ten years old. I cannot get to the on-line form without starting an application so I have to assume the questions are the same.

It is really important to know (from the rejection letter) whether the ban relates to the overstay or the belief that the applicant has tried to deceive with this application and this is perhaps the best reason why professional help should be sought.

You should find an OISC registered consultant in Thailand. The OISC bit is UK registration and regulation.

[7by7]

14 hours ago, nigel starkey said:

 

We have the passport and there is nothing stamped in to suggest deportation. Only arrival stamps for UK and Thailand.

You've been asked before for these dates; we can then work out whether she left the UK more than 10 years ago or less than 10 years ago.

 

You've also been asked to post a copy of the refusal notice so we can see the exact reasons given by the decision maker for refusing her. Remember to delete all names and any other identifying information first.

 

With that information we may then be able to best advise you on how to proceed; and I find it strange that you appear reluctant to provide it.

 

15 hours ago, nigel starkey said:

<snip>

Can you give me any addresses or phone numbers thanks.

The only agent in Thailand I know enough about to trust and recommend is Thai Visa Express. They are based in Pattaya and their contact details can be found on their website.

 

Note that, like us, they will be unable to advise you unless you provide all the information they ask for; including the above.

 

[nigel starkey]

10 hours ago, 7by7 said:

You've been asked before for these dates; we can then work out whether she left the UK more than 10 years ago or less than 10 years ago.

 

You've also been asked to post a copy of the refusal notice so we can see the exact reasons given by the decision maker for refusing her. Remember to delete all names and any other identifying information first.

 

With that information we may then be able to best advise you on how to proceed; and I find it strange that you appear reluctant to provide it.

 

The only agent in Thailand I know enough about to trust and recommend is Thai Visa Express. They are based in Pattaya and their contact details can be found on their website.

 

Note that, like us, they will be unable to advise you unless you provide all the information they ask for; including the above.

 

The only stamps in the p/p are Depart Bkk. 19th March 2005. Arriv. Heathrow UK 20th March 2005. Arr. Bkk. 21st May 2007. there are no other stamps or references in regards to departure from Heathrow or deportation. Can you send me a line id or email and I will gladly send the letter of decline. However to quote letter  "visit shows that you entered on 20th March 2005. However, you overstayed your visa and remained in the United Kingdom illegally fo a perriod of two years returning to T hailand ........2007. You have made no reference to this in you current application, in particular , I am satisfied that you knew about your previous immigration history and chose to omit any reference to it because of the negative affect .........

.........I am satisfied you have used deception and made false representations in support ...........

....this application for entry clearance has been refused under paragraph V3.6 OF Imm. Rules AND I am satisfied that you have used deception. ......means that future clearance  applications may also be refused ............for a period of 10 years, under para. V3. 7 or para.320 (7b)...... 

 

Hope this helps. 

With thanks

[theoldgit]

The only stamps in the p/p are Depart Bkk. 19th March 2005. Arriv. Heathrow UK 20th March 2005. Arr. Bkk. 21st May 2007. there are no other stamps or references in regards to departure from Heathrow or deportation.

There may not be stamps in the passport indicating when a person left the UK or routine embarkation controls at LHR, but The UKBA will be aware of any overstayering.

The UKBA faced criticism when embarkation controls were scrapped some years ago and then announced that they would bring in other systems to check on possible overstayers.

Carriers, including Eurostar, were charged with collecting data and passing it onto the UKBA, they’ve been doing so for a few years now.

I don’t know how effective the cross matching is, the UKBA have a poor record when it comes to IT, eborders is a prime example, but the information is recorded in an attempt to identify overstayers when they make further applications.

Likewise a deportation, removal or voluntary departure will be recorded centrally and that information will be available to the decision maker.

 

 

 

 

[bobrussell]

My personal opinion is that it would have been sensible to declare the overstay and deal with it head on.

However as long as the overstay was over ten years then I cannot see where disclosure of events this far back, is demanded. It would not be completely out of order to believe that there was some form of 'statute of limitations' and therefore the inexperienced might ignore it and just answer the questions asked. This is not deceit, just inexperience!

Not sure this is a guaranteed defence as there is a box that asks the applicant to give any further details they feel is relevant.

I still feel it would not be inappropriate to ask for reconsideration, at least for the ban by explaining the circumstances. significant grovelling would be appropriate but at least it might clear the way for another application!

 

Edited May 26, 2018 by bobrussell

[nigel starkey]

1 hour ago, bobrussell said:

My personal opinion is that it would have been sensible to declare the overstay and deal with it head on.

However as long as the overstay was over ten years then I cannot see where disclosure of events this far back, is demanded. It would not be completely out of order to believe that there was some form of 'statute of limitations' and therefore the inexperienced might ignore it and just answer the questions asked. This is not deceit, just inexperience!

Not sure this is a guaranteed defence as there is a box that asks the applicant to give any further details they feel is relevant.

I still feel it would not be inappropriate to ask for reconsideration, at least for the ban by explaining the circumstances. significant grovelling would be appropriate but at least it might clear the way for another application!

 

Thanks Bob, that's exactly what I was thinking. I just need to know where I can state my case and advice on how to do so. 

[bobrussell]

I cannot find whether the letter requesting reconsideration should go to VFS or directly to the embassy. I am sure someone here will be able to give guidance on that one!

[theoldgit]

As far as I'm aware if you don't have the right of appeal and you think a mistake has been made, you can ask for an administrative review of the decision, but you cannot do so if your refusal was for a Standard Visitor Visa.

https://www.gov.uk/ask-for-a-visa-administrative-review

 

I think you might be better reapplying, and addressing all the reasons for the refusals and cross referencing them in the application.

 

If than doesn't appeal then maybe contact an agent who is qualified in appeal work, as far as I know only Thai Visa Express is qualified and certainly he and his team are very good, or take a letter to VFS and ask them to forward it to the UKVI.  

[bobrussell]

There is no right of appeal but if you believe a mistake has been made then you can request a review. This is available only those applications that do not have a right of appeal.

 

https://www.gov.uk/ask-for-a-visa-administrative-review

 

There is every chance that this will be rejected but still probably worth going through the motions. It is really the possible ban that needs to be addressed and covered in the letter and/or subsequent application.

 

I have not seen the actual letter from UKVI but my understanding is that the wording is 'future entry clearance applications may also be refused under immigration rules for a period of up to 10 years'. It does not state they will be refused. This is fairly typical government 'speak' that does not mean anything but just looks as if it does!

 

It is worth noting that any administrative review will be considered withdrawn if a further application is made! 

The barrier to mount is the belief that deception has been attempted!

 

The inflexibility and intransigence of the Home Office would push me in the direction of a good immigration adviser or immigration lawyer. I have found that there is great reluctance for them to admit they got it wrong or made a bad decision.