Where can I learn more about Thai social hierarchy and "Face"?

[Ks45672]

10 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. If you really want to interact with Thais, don't go where the hiso play. They have no interest, IMO, in associating with farangs, unless extremely rich, or business associates.

The lower classes are the ones to make friends with, if interested in doing so.

That's basically it

The lower classes are happy to meet a "rich Farang" and have a beer or be friendly but it's more often than not because they want something from you

 

A group of hi so thais with ferraris Parked outside are well aware of the class difference and will not likely be impressed by a Farang who can only mumble a couple of words of Thai he learned from some bargirl

 

Most of them have international education and have no problem having a conversation in English but they're Thais in Thailand so you they would rather speak Thai then converse in English just for your benefit... 

 

[grollies]

On 5/30/2018 at 11:47 PM, IsaanFam said:

 

I never wai because I am never will be and want to be part of their hierarchy construction because I abhor inequality of human blood. If you want to be yourself, never wai.

That's pretty sad.

[IsaanFam]

9 hours ago, grollies said:

That's pretty sad.

I know some people are more equal than others, otherwise you wouldn't call it sad that I oppose inequality. 

[chingmai331]

For those interested i can strongly recommend this 150 page book, written by a Thai fluent German scholar..

 

[Poottrong]

On 5/30/2018 at 9:54 AM, seancbk said:

 

What nonsense.  I socialise all the time with my Thai friends, I get invited to their houses for BBQs and they ask me to join them when they go out, or I ask them to join me and my friends.  
Tons of Farangs and Thais socialise in Bangkok all the time.  Just looks at the social groups that are arranged through Facebook and sites like Meetup.

 

I could be wrong but I'm guessing your Thai friends probably speak fluent English and are quite cosmopolitan (work at foreign owned companies etc) and are pretty well off - in other words, a minority. In my experience middle class Thais and down don't regularly socialize with foreigners - partly due to the language barrier and partly because they just don't want to. If there's a free meal going that's a different story but otherwise they just steer clear.

[Poottrong]

1 hour ago, chingmai331 said:

For those interested i can strongly recommend this 150 page book, written by a Thai fluent German scholar..

 

If I remember rightly at the end of the book the author reflects on how strange it was that he had had spent all this time in the country and didn't have a single close Thai friend.

 

Probably the rule rather than the exception I'd say.

[chingmai331]

Yes, the author does comment on his years spent in Thailand and his lack of close local friends. But in the later edition, after thinking this over, he says because the differences between the western idea of friendship and the Thai idea are pretty large and that the Thai need for social structure, each person in his proper place, means that folks outside the proper place, like farangs, cannot find a close bond with ordinary people.

He believes that western friendship can  transcend social barriers like money, class, education, etc.  But this is not generally possible in Thai society as emotions, which are less restricted in close western friendships, are kept firmly in place amongst the Thais.

My interpretation.  But in the end the book is a welcome door to many hidden aspects of Thai behavior.

[Poottrong]

49 minutes ago, chingmai331 said:

Yes, the author does comment on his years spent in Thailand and his lack of close local friends. But in the later edition, after thinking this over, he says because the differences between the western idea of friendship and the Thai idea are pretty large and that the Thai need for social structure, each person in his proper place, means that folks outside the proper place, like farangs, cannot find a close bond with ordinary people.

 

Well said. Totally agree.

[thaibeachlovers]

51 minutes ago, chingmai331 said:

Yes, the author does comment on his years spent in Thailand and his lack of close local friends. But in the later edition, after thinking this over, he says because the differences between the western idea of friendship and the Thai idea are pretty large and that the Thai need for social structure, each person in his proper place, means that folks outside the proper place, like farangs, cannot find a close bond with ordinary people.

He believes that western friendship can  transcend social barriers like money, class, education, etc.  But this is not generally possible in Thai society as emotions, which are less restricted in close western friendships, are kept firmly in place amongst the Thais.

My interpretation.  But in the end the book is a welcome door to many hidden aspects of Thai behavior.

I look on Thai culture in the same way as I look on women- something I will never understand. I just do what I can to get along and ignore the rest. Eg I don't touch people on their heads and I don't point the soles of my feet at people.

IMO some put too much importance on fitting in with Thai culture, whereas I have always been given a pass because I'm not Thai.

[chippendale]

On 5/25/2018 at 7:16 PM, Dmaxdan said:

So don't listen to the cynics who say you will never be excepted in Thai society.
 

You will be excepted and definitely not accepted.

 

No matter how much we try to go native, we will never be mistaken for Thais, but with an easy-going and humble attitude anyone can enjoy life here.

[Poottrong]

44 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I look on Thai culture in the same way as I look on women- something I will never understand. I just do what I can to get along and ignore the rest.

Yep, and this is that it's exactly the approach  most Thai's take towards us and our culture.

 

"IMO some put too much importance on fitting in with Thai culture"

 

I don't see many farangs going overboard with this. They'd learn the language if they were truly keen. Like you, I think most just want to know the basic do's and don'ts  and this is exactly what the Thai's ask of you - you're not meant to fit in here from their perspective.

[patrickjburt]

It's really difficult to learn such things like Thai social hierarchy and "Face" or any other regions. Good info here on it.

[bermondburi]

On 5/30/2018 at 5:54 AM, seancbk said:

 

What nonsense.  I socialise all the time with my Thai friends, I get invited to their houses for BBQs and they ask me to join them when they go out, or I ask them to join me and my friends.  
Tons of Farangs and Thais socialise in Bangkok all the time.  Just looks at the social groups that are arranged through Facebook and sites like Meetup.

 

Thais make great fairweather friends.

On 5/30/2018 at 7:51 PM, IsaanFam said:

 

The funny part of this is that Thais are really super serious about the hierarchy. Over time I have made multiple encounters based on this principle. Flip flops vs dressed nicely. They treat you very differently. 

 

In Isaan, everybody comes to me and talks to me. But only if I wear shorts and flip flops. If I wear my regular clothing, ie long sleeve, long chinos, nobody seems to want to talk with me.

Nobody wants to speak to anyone in chinos!

On 5/31/2018 at 8:24 AM, seancbk said:

 

No offence taken.  I'm 50 but look, act and feel like I'm still 30 and my Thai friends are mostly in their 30's.  I guess you'd call them middle class - one of the families just sold their house and land in Ekkamai for 150 million baht.  They are also mostly, but not all, overseas educated (British public schools).   

I spent 35 years living in Hong Kong and I've been here for 10 so far, so I feel I understand Asians pretty well.   

Your statement that "The most well adjusted, successful farang in Thailand are invariably the ones who have almost no local friends."   is rubbish (no offence).  I would say it's the opposite.  The more successful you are the more likely you are to be welcomed into Thai society.  

I'm not sure how you can claim that locals and foreigners barely interact and then say you've been in and amongst the elite for 30 years.   Do you not interact with them despite being amongst them?   

Not normal, a very small minority.

On 6/1/2018 at 2:22 PM, AntDee said:

One can be around people and not be interacting on a meaningful level. To add more context, what I'm talking about is interaction that is not coerced. There are literally millions of foreigners here at any given time. Look around and give me sense of how many we see interacting with locals. 

 

When you goto lunch, how many mixed tables do you see? 

 

When you go out on the weekends to fancy (or not) places for entertainment, how many do you see?

 

I've spent time all up and down Ekkamai and Thonglor. Thais and foreigners almost never caught mixing.

 

Luxury resorts ditto. Was recently at one such resort up in the mountains. Full of well-heeled Thais. To give an idea, bungalows START at 30,000 Thai Baht per NIGHT and go up much higher.  Breakfast buffet full of people from all over the world. My mrs and me met 1 couple from Italy, one from Japan who we all had dinner with. The next night we talked with a couple from Xian, China. Great people who have a large investment here in Thailand. 

 

Not a single Thai group that I saw interacted with any of the many foreigners there. 

 

Schools - same. My 2 kids were enrolled in a very famous top 2 uni near Siam. The complaints from the farang parents in our group was the same. The Thai parents always seemed stsndoffish.

 

It's a well-known phenomenon here. 

I kind of think so what. What is so great about Thai people that I should want to get to know them.

On 6/1/2018 at 11:21 PM, Ks45672 said:

The rural villages are not places you are going to meet anyone of high social status, hanging around outside the mom and pop store drinking a beer..... 

 

Try golf courses and upmarket clubs around bkk

 

You may struggle a bit with introductions because the true wealthy elite probably have zero interest in meeting you unless you are introduced by someone else they  know and respect ?

 

And being able to converse in fluent Thai goes a long way...... 

 

 

The poster mentioned Thai society, not high society. A rural village is an excellent place to work out the way the majority of Thailand thinks.

On 6/2/2018 at 2:14 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

I'd add that if you want to understand Thai culture, learning fluent conversational Thai would be essential.

But then you regret learning.

On 6/4/2018 at 7:09 AM, Poottrong said:

If I remember rightly at the end of the book the author reflects on how strange it was that he had had spent all this time in the country and didn't have a single close Thai friend.

 

Probably the rule rather than the exception I'd say.

Absolutely. 

 

And what is so great about Thais that I should want them as a friend too.

[Zikomat]

In this irrational world, closed and ignorant societies is all that's left from the past. Like those famous birds - they put their heads deep into the sands. As long as it works - they are happy.

But what you want to learn from them? First, it is impossible to be one of them. Second, it is a deeply immoral thing to wish being an idiot. 

[ozmeldo]

If you've been here a few years and have not mastered basic Thai customs and manners you are just a huge social fail.

 

The farang that say it's not important are really stating - it's not important to them.

 

If you were back in your home country where we all exchange handshakes you types undoubtedly would be the first to call out Somchai, Achmed, Win Lo or Ochisan to continue to greet you as ................ despite having been in your country decade.

 

I view foreigners who can't exchange a wai as just lost, lazy social failures.

 

You need not worry about who is three weeks older /or younger than you to call Pii or not.

 

The common wai will be appreciated and the recipient think...yeah, he gets it.

 

Do they expect it? No. The expect you to be a social fool. Why not surprise them.

 

Like anywhere else in the world your exterior material wealth, education, the country you are from, your career or former career, how you carry yourself, grooming, general politeness. Attractiveness of your wife that doesn't look like a washed out hooker from soi 6. What does your wife do for work? Are you a teacher? Do you teach at a broken little elementary or a top 5 public in Thailand - or at least the best school in your province,

 

I wouldn't be concerned about government officials. That's sordid business and a lot of manufactured people if great self importance. Just smile, wai and be yourself.

 

Buffoonery just makes you look like an idiot and confuses people.

 

I'm married, honestly don't know or care much about deep Thai social custom bc I'm not Thai. Being polite as I understand seems to be enough. But I am of the opinion that a wai is very important. One thing dead certain, if you are wai-ed and don't return it, it's fairly insulting or you'll just be thought of as Captain Clueless (service staff aside)

 

Edited June 8, 2018 by ozmeldo

[colinchaffers]

As others said before, unless you look like a Thai nothing is expected from you, you never "fit in"
So for a foreigner it's quite easy:
You greet anybody with a sawas dee khab, but you only "wai" people who are friends / family and who are older than you (if friends / family who are younger than you "wai" you first you can "wai" back but it's not expected). Always talk polite with everybody. If you stick to this you can't do anything wrong.

Agreed, this is my experience and approach (I’m in the country)


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, ozmeldo said:

One thing dead certain, if you are wai-ed and don't return it, it's fairly insulting or you'll just be thought of as Captain Clueless (service staff aside)

So, you return wais from children?

 

Thais finally seem to be getting that farangs don't require wais, as not many do it to farangs any more, other than the ones giving the meaningless equivalent of "have a nice day".

[BobBKK]

nothing much has changed