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Indiana middle school student shoots teacher, classmate


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21 hours ago, riclag said:

I refer you to post #22!  IMOP,  protecting the schools should be the priority .This thread is about a shooting in the schools,nobody talks about that. For example, in war you take over something then you build a perimeter and secure it.. Schools are soft targets now.Protect them 

 

It seems you would like to cure symptoms and not the disease. The US disease is weapons and violence (with a historical background).

 

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On 5/26/2018 at 6:24 AM, ezzra said:

Ok. it seems that one of the solutions here is to check every student with a airport style magomenter and a TSA vetting, and if need be, isolate and lock up the school like a prison, no one comes in or go out during class, only than the shooting will stop... 

 

This is a ludicrous idea.

 

You implement metal detectors & security checks - that will create a queue of students waiting to be checked.

 

Which is basically lining them up for the next shooter.  

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No easy solution. My assessment of the options:

 

1. Take the guns out of society. Practicality: 3. Efficacy: 7.

2. More security in schools. Practicality: 4. Efficacy: 5.

3. Psychological screening for all children. Practicality: 5. Efficacy: 6.

4. Alternative educational methods for anti-social children. Practicality: 5. Efficacy: 6.

5. Programs to prevent the social hypersensitisation of children. Practicality: 5. Efficacy: 7.

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All we hear is constitutional right, is it not a constitutional right/basic human right to be able to send your kids to school without the fear of another school shooting?

 

Its complete madness that nothing is done about this.

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3 hours ago, puck2 said:

 

It seems you would like to cure symptoms and not the disease. The US disease is weapons and violence (with a historical background).

 

Thanks to the marketing effort of the NRA and Hollywood.

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On 5/26/2018 at 3:15 AM, sirineou said:

 

 You get all these kids, who maybe have being bullied, are traumatised, perhaps have self esteem problems. Many of them work these problems out like we all did growing up. some sadly never do, and a smaller percentage that we all read in the papers and see on TV with increasing regularity , get to act on their frustrations and mental problems because guns are readily available.

Take the guns away and many of them will get over that difficult age and become normal productive adults.

 

Yeah, that's part of it. I'd say the bigger issue is that these kids are on social media 24/7, including in class. No one ever talks about that. The first thing I'd suggest is to make schools a "smartphone free zone". And as contemptible a person as Oliver North is, he did make an interesting point about all the drugs many kids are on now. These are tangible things that have changed, because the guns were always around.

Edited by lannarebirth
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9 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

Yeah, that's part of it. I'd say the bigger issue is that these kids are on social media 24/7, including in class. No one ever talks about that. The first thing I'd suggest is to make schools a "smartphone free zone". And as contemptible a person as Oliver North is, he did make an interesting point about all the drugs many kids are on now. These are tangible things that have changed, because the guns were always around.

Kids on social media, kids on drugs, same as the UK but we don't have mass school killings like the US.

 

But we don't have easy access to guns either....

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2 minutes ago, sungod said:

Kids on social media, kids on drugs, same as the UK but we don't have mass school killings like the US.

 

But we don't have easy access to guns either....

 

I don't mean street drugs. I'm talking about behaviour modification drugs. Their families put them on it. A list of side effects of two common ones many kids are on:

 

https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-9475/ritalin-oral/details/list-sideeffects

 

https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-63163/adderall-oral/details/list-sideeffects

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1 hour ago, lannarebirth said:

 

I don't mean street drugs. I'm talking about behaviour modification drugs. Their families put them on it. A list of side effects of two common ones many kids are on:

 

https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-9475/ritalin-oral/details/list-sideeffects

 

https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-63163/adderall-oral/details/list-sideeffects

I hear you, in the west we live in an age where all of us could be diagnosed with a disorder of some description, they would have us all popping pills.....

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On 5/27/2018 at 6:15 AM, sirineou said:

 What people in other countries sometimes don't understand, or forget  is that the USA stands for United States of America. A federation of different states with different laws and different cultures. The culture in Connecticut is some different than the culture in Alabama.  There is a litle thing called states rights that is designed to prevent a tyrannical federal government,  and though these states rights  are a strength to the federal system, at times can have negative effects.

I'm sure most people know what USA stands for, its more like a lot of folks in the USA don't know that they are not living in conditions that are from 200-300 years ago. No one is taking away your right from owning guns, just more strict checks and regulations so people can handle a firearm properly. 

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23 hours ago, CharlesSwann said:

No easy solution. My assessment of the options:

 

1. Take the guns out of society. Practicality: 3. Efficacy: 7.

2. More security in schools. Practicality: 4. Efficacy: 5.

3. Psychological screening for all children. Practicality: 5. Efficacy: 6.

4. Alternative educational methods for anti-social children. Practicality: 5. Efficacy: 6.

5. Programs to prevent the social hypersensitisation of children. Practicality: 5. Efficacy: 7.

Been thinking more about this.

1. is clearly not going to happen, unfortunately.

2. is undesirable as it only creates tension, and tension invites tension-breaking behaviour.

 

The solution is a combination of 3-5. Something clearly is not working right in schools. A sense of alienation, in various forms, is the root of the problem.

 

I would initiate a new educational system on the principle of 'A Niche for Everyone' that nurtures individual differences and doesn't try to flatten them out.

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9 hours ago, CharlesSwann said:

Been thinking more about this.

1. is clearly not going to happen, unfortunately.

2. is undesirable as it only creates tension, and tension invites tension-breaking behaviour.

 

The solution is a combination of 3-5. Something clearly is not working right in schools. A sense of alienation, in various forms, is the root of the problem.

 

I would initiate a new educational system on the principle of 'A Niche for Everyone' that nurtures individual differences and doesn't try to flatten them out.

Interesting, but there are a couple of problems with it.   First, since children are developing psychologically, it is nearly impossible to make any kind of diagnostic assessment of anything but the most severe and serious problems.   Most of the school shooters fall roughly into the 'normal' category.   After the fact, people can identify things, but seldom is it anything that rises to the level of a problem before the incident.  The same is true with children who commit suicide.  Children are just very impulsive. To be sure, that's not always true, such as with the Parkland shooter.

 

Second, children are in the process of figuring out who and what they are, and that's not always easy.  They need to have a sense of belonging and being a part of something.   Maslow's hierarchy of needs addresses that and a lot of kids are searching for that sense or group.    We can't put them there, they have to find it.  

 

Bullying is a problem, but it can't be an excuse.  It can't be totally stopped.   There is a difference between feeling bullied and actually being bullied.   So a more openness to differences would be helpful, but not the total cure. 

 

 

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21 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

Weapons are a symptom, not the disease. The disease is cultural.

 

It's open to dispute, if the weapons are a symptom or a disease. Fact is that they are used to solve a problem violently. It's obvious that mainly in the USA the weapons are used when something isn't okay. It doesn't happen in this way and so often in other „civilized“ countries.

 

So let me exaggerate it. Many (many) US Americans have a gene, named violence. They are not used to solve problems with normal sense, but by a violent behavior. Examples in history and presence:

  • Killing the Amerindians when occupying their land, also called: colonizing America

  • Slavery over many hundred years (is dominated by violence)

  • Read the TV posts, especially when it concerns crimes, re. alleged crimes. It is a typical reaction of many US Americans with words as: „kill him“, „life sentence“ (for minor offenses), „cut his balls“, etc.

  • the idea to solve North-South Korea problem by weapons (not by diplomacy) and -..... very up to date

  • electing a (childish) obnoxious, undiplomatic man as POTUS who proclaimed wars to solve problems in the world (Iran, N-K, trade wars, etc.). In „normal“ countries this would never had happened to chose such a violent man for the top job of a state.

 

Nowhere in the free world you'll find such an aggressive and violent behavior.

@lannarebirth, please no quibble about the word „gene“. Don't understand it biologically, but „culturally“.

 

Understand me right, not all Americans are like this, but the percentage of people with such an gun attitude/mindset is undoubtedly much higher than in „normal“ countries without this gun obsession.

 

The guns (laws) are a propensity and a symbol for violence.

 

So it seems impossible to solve the gun-crime problem in the USA. Because of the unbelievable power of the NRA lobbyism neither Reps nor Dems can/will solve the problem in the near future.

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14 minutes ago, puck2 said:

 

 

The guns (laws) are a propensity and a symbol for violence.

 

So it seems impossible to solve the gun-crime problem in the USA. Because of the unbelievable power of the NRA lobbyism neither Reps nor Dems can/will solve the problem in the near future.

 

THE gun law IS a symbol for violence, no question. It was created specifically to allow for violent revolution against a tyrannical government. Yes, a lot of violence in America's past. Not unlike the UK, Germany, Russia, China, Japan, Turkey, etc.

 

I don't think the NRA is the problem. Lobbying is the problem. Many other lobbies have much more blood on their hands than the NRA, who, though callous, tone deaf, shrill and inflammatory, are merely pointing out that the gun rights law exists and they will defend it.

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22 minutes ago, Scott said:

Interesting, but there are a couple of problems with it.   First, since children are developing psychologically, it is nearly impossible to make any kind of diagnostic assessment of anything but the most severe and serious problems.   Most of the school shooters fall roughly into the 'normal' category.   After the fact, people can identify things, but seldom is it anything that rises to the level of a problem before the incident.  The same is true with children who commit suicide.  Children are just very impulsive. To be sure, that's not always true, such as with the Parkland shooter.

 

Second, children are in the process of figuring out who and what they are, and that's not always easy.  They need to have a sense of belonging and being a part of something.   Maslow's hierarchy of needs addresses that and a lot of kids are searching for that sense or group.    We can't put them there, they have to find it.  

 

Bullying is a problem, but it can't be an excuse.  It can't be totally stopped.   There is a difference between feeling bullied and actually being bullied.   So a more openness to differences would be helpful, but not the total cure. 

 

I haven't done a survey, but by definition that can't be the case, and in the cases I know of, such as Columbine, there was ample evidence of sociopathy after the fact, and in other cases before the fact.

 

Having said that, you can't lock up every kid who doesn't pass a psychometric test. The symptoms have to be prevented in the first place. It's all about their failure to meet the challenges presented by society. Society is insecure and wants to hammer at least a degree of conformity into children. They should rethink that for a start.

 

Thinking back to my own schooldays there was absolutely a sense of everyone being forced into the required shape. School is a barely sane place with the pressure of concentration and exams and the social pressure not to get beat up or ridiculed. I spent five years in mandatory French classes when I wasn't interested in the subject and I came out of it with little more than Frere-a Jacque-a. I was conscientious and well-behaved on the surface, but even I fantasised for a while about burning the place down. I can think of ways that the educational process could be improved to prevent turning out sociopaths.

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I don't want to get into an argument because we will end up splitting hairs.   When I say 'normal' I used it in the broadest sense and like a lot of things, when we look back the signs were there to a greater or lesser degree.  

 

It is rare for psychiatrists or psychologists to be able to make a diagnosis on children under 12.   Things get clearer at 16, but usually not even close to definitive.   There are a few diagnosis, but they are too broad to say much.   One is 'adolescent adjustment reaction' and, in my experience, most kids just grow out of it.  

 

True psychopaths are relatively rare, but the signs do show up early, but again it's not quite diagnosable.   The best predictor of future violence is past violence.   Unfortunately, it's too late when the first real indicator is a kid with a gun at school.

 

I completely understand your feelings on French, or any other subject, but that's part of the process.   I figured out very early on in choir that my dreams of being a singer in a band wasn't in the cards.   Not even close, by the way!!  

 

Whether kids are nerds, jocks, goths or whatever, they find out by sort of trying it on to see if it fits and if they find acceptance and a sense of belonging.   The same goes for more nefarious activities such as gangs and drugs.   We can't make them all into jocks and they can't all be cheerleaders or homecoming queen.   Our goal has to be to make schools safe enough to try on various roles and guide them in the most positive directions.  

 

I suspect that active shooter drills don't help much in giving a sense of security and safety, but then neither did those 'duck and cover' drills for the impending nuclear attack that never came.   They are a part of the reality generations face.  

 

Your careful thought and input is appreciated.

 

 

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17 hours ago, mike324 said:

I'm sure most people know what USA stands for, its more like a lot of folks in the USA don't know that they are not living in conditions that are from 200-300 years ago. No one is taking away your right from owning guns, just more strict checks and regulations so people can handle a firearm properly. 

 You misunderstood the point of my reply.

I know that most people know what the acronyms USA mean. The point is that when they say Americans, perhaps they don't realise that there are  many different Americans from many different states . And as an example  I offered the cultural differences between Alabama and Connecticut.   

 

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2 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

Don't be afraid, it isn't the guns, it is porn that causes the shootings:

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/porn-leads-to-school-shootings-gop-congresswoman-says/ar-AAxZovJ?ocid=spartandhp

 

She is in congress, what sort of morons are being electing there?

 

I think there's a sexual/hormonal component to it and porn, which of course you can watch at school, may or may not feed that, but to say it is the root cause, I think is a little far fetched

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Wow!

I didn't even notice, this happened!

Probably because only 2 people got shot and we don't react to anything under 10 deaths anymore!?

 

I wonder, what the pro- everybody-gets- a-gun- advocates offer as reason this time?

Did the shooter play a videogame?

Did he listen to loud music?

Or did he wear a trenchcoat?

I wonder, what links him to all the other shootings...

Well...I guess, it will remain a mystery!

:coffee1: 

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