Newly elected Future Forward leader Thanathorn vows to dump 2017 charter

[JAG]

18 minutes ago, bangrak said:

I guess it will be interesting to see the reactions of PTP/UDD on this new FFP party, and of course these of their dedicated propagandists on TV. I do sincerely hope that my first 'gut feeling' about this FFP will be shown to be wrong...

Since you usually equate believing that the Thai people have a right to choose their own government with being a propagandist for the Redshirts, I should imagine that you will have plenty of material!

Edited May 28, 2018 by JAG

[Happyman58]

3 minutes ago, Eligius said:

I agree with you - but I always add the rider, 'a GENUINE election' (a fraudulent, fake one is quite possible - after a long, long wait)!

Well, anything is possible.  After seeing what happened in Ecuador I am sure the Pm took notes of that. The guy in Kampuchea even goes better he just arrests the opposition leaders. And that was only because they said they would stand against him with a smile on their face.

[Eric Loh]

11 minutes ago, bangrak said:

So, it may not be exactly, but 'more than', 700 founding members, Khun Eric, can you tell me though who the 'Voting members' could have been, when not these (registered?) founding members, please, as you seem to be so well informed about this FFP? Thank you!

(P.S.: you don't say that Mr Thanathorn got 473 votes amongthe whole audience of 2,000 + 700 do you?)

I think you have a problem with comprehension. How did you get the conclusion in your PS when it was clearly stated that he got 473 votes from voting members and 1 abstention (his). The information just not clear enough for your superb intelligence. You are welcome. 

[bangrak]

3 hours ago, JAG said:

Since you usually equate believing that the Thai people have a right to choose their own government with being a propagandist for the Redshirts, I should imagine that you will have plenty of material!

'JAG', I guess I want, more than you, Thai people to choose their own ...MPs to vote in their own majority government, in a honest, transparent general election, void from vote rigging/buying, void from hardhanded influence on rural communities, North, East, South, central plains, everywhere! ...That while the PTP/UDD ...Shins' propagandists, who, maybe, I hope, do not realise that what they bring forward has nothing ado with 'democracy', at least in the way true democrats (from abroad) perceive it, and live according to the principles of(!) (quite hard work it is, with more duties and sacrifice than rights and leisure), but just the Thai shadow puppetry image the show-called-democracy in this country is about, call it 'Dems', call it the Shins' owned TRT/PPP/PTP (and UDD thugs) it is all about power and money, greed and corruption, NOT about 'the people', 'the people' it should be ALL about, in anything a bit close to starting building a 'democracy', don't you get it, really, you don't, do you? What a crying shame when you don't!

Edited May 28, 2018 by bangrak

[bangrak]

3 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

I think you have a problem with comprehension. How did you get the conclusion in your PS when it was clearly stated that he got 473 votes from voting members and 1 abstention (his). The information just not clear enough for your superb intelligence. You are welcome. 

I am a dummy compared to you, I'm so sorry. So, please, make the effort to give a simple question a simple answer to. Let me re-phrase, please, as for a high-level intellectual like you, it might be a problem to understand me, not being a highly educated chinese individual.

Who were the 473 minus an abstention votes coming from, expressed by raised arm? You don't mean that only 474 persons did have the right to vote, do you, It would be plain gross when in this new FFP political party, wanting to come forward as a new icon of 'democracy', not even all of the 700+ 'founding members' present did have the right to express a vote, do you?

Well, Khun Eric, when that would be so, please do believe me, it did'nt even come up in my mind before you lead me to it, that anything wanting to call itself 'democratic' could possibly be that un-democratic, from its first general assembly on! But hey, it would not be my last sore surprise in this country, ...where 'Chinese do what Chinese do', as you are well placed to know.

Thank you, really, for showing me where that FFP could(!) be coming from, your caring 'presence' on this subject quite a sign of, and where it would(!) then be heading to, once exposed. Quite interesting times ahead, I'd say...

[JAG]

1 hour ago, bangrak said:

'JAG', I guess I want, more than you, Thai people to choose their own ...MPs to vote in their own majority government, in a honest, transparent general election, void from vote rigging/buying, void from hardhanded influence on rural communities, North, East, South, central plains, everywhere! ...That while the PTP/UDD ...Shins' propagandists, who, maybe, I hope, do not realise that what they bring forward has nothing ado with 'democracy', at least in the way true democrats (from abroad) perceive it, and live according to the principles of(!) (quite hard work it is, with more duties and sacrifice than rights and leisure), but just the Thai shadow puppetry image the show-called-democracy in this country is about, call it 'Dems', call it the Shins' owned TRT/PPP/PTP (and UDD thugs) it is all about power and money, greed and corruption, NOT about 'the people', 'the people' it should be ALL about, in anything a bit close to starting building a 'democracy', don't you get it, really, you don't, do you? What a crying shame when you don't!

So you know better than the electorate - which completely confirms my point.

 

The electorate have consistently, repeatedly made a choice, time after time after time. But no, they cannot have their choice -its not your choice.

 

You talk of a "crying shame", your stance is contemptible.

[bangrak]

1 minute ago, JAG said:

So you know better than the electorate - which completely confirms my point.

 

The electorate have consistently, repeatedly made a choice, time after time after time. But no, they cannot have their choice -its not your choice.

 

You talk of a "crying shame", your stance is contemptible.

'The electorate have consistently, repeatedly made a choice, time after time after time': I would be so happy for the Thai people when it would be so, 'JAG', but when you are honest, you know damn well it is not so, it was not so before the Shins came up with an own political party, and it was also not so with their political formations.

It would be so great and beautiful when Thai citizens would be allowed, and helped (...the long process of unprejudiced education which has not yet started) to analyse a complex situation, to make valid choices for themselves and the next generations' future, to select a political movement with a clear, realistic program in that direction, and to vote for candidates they know they can trust to represent them honestly!

That's what everyone should want for Thailand, to give 'democracy' a, first(!), chance to be born and grow! The group of persons you allude to had a chance to start doing so, but what came out of it ...?

Quote: 'democracy is not my goal', Thaksin Shinawatra, enough said?

[sjaak327]

6 hours ago, Fish Head Soup said:

So the answer is 'No'.

Well, that IS providing there are elections in 2019, which is not entirely certain, I mean there would have been elections in 2015 if the Junta was to believed. However with the new constitution and all of it's provisions, it would not surprise me if in three years there are elections again….

[sjaak327]

7 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

You make a valid point, which is why I mentioned the size of the electoral mandate.

 

If the mandate (assuming one occurs) is quite small, then I think you are correct and the government will be hamstrung.

 

However, with a large mandate a government would be able to resist pressure against it. Yes, Suthep and all the others who have invested their time in gaining power will fight, but the balance of power is directly related to the mandate. It would be hard to fight against a newly-formed government if they had a large mandate; if the Thai people didn't come out into the streets (a la 1992), then it would be the international community. Thailand would be an international laughing stock and that would not be acceptable or accepted.; the loss of face would be too great.

 

There is an assumption on this Forum these days that neither the Thai people not the international community will do anything, ever; I think this is mistaken. I tend to consider 1973 as the start of modern Thai politics, and since 1973 many, many, many, many times Thai people have fought for their political rights; why do you assume that they will never do so again? Yes, they look a bit cowed at the moment, but that doesn't mean they will be cowed forever.

 

It is all in the size of the mandate. Yes, size does matter!

 

Finally, everything changed recently; I'll leave it at that.

 

But the whole point here is that the size of the mandate does not matter. Yes it might be more difficult to explain, but they do not have to stage a coup, they do not have to break the law, there is no need for elaborate amnesties, the charter gives them the right to send any government packing, regardless of the size of the mandate, all perfecftly legal. 

 

And since when have those people ever cared about a mandate, let alone the size of it ? they deposed two governements with a very clear and big mandate already. And to do so they had to break the law, now they don't even need to do that anymore. 

 

The international community is of no help, they mentioned elections and left it at that. Not even a protest about this constitution, which is anything but democratic. They KNOW, but they simply do not care. 

[sjaak327]

2 hours ago, JAG said:

So you know better than the electorate - which completely confirms my point.

 

The electorate have consistently, repeatedly made a choice, time after time after time. But no, they cannot have their choice -its not your choice.

 

You talk of a "crying shame", your stance is contemptible.

I long gave up with this poster. Other than the sham referendum by the junta, the various elections that brought Thaksin, Samak and Yingluck to power were monitored by independent foreign observants, and the general consensus amongst them was that those elections were free and fair.  

 

Your analysis is spot on, this poster wants to deny choice, just because those pesky Thai keep voting in the guy he does not like. He is in no position to lecture anyone about democracy, that much is crystal clear.

 

Edited May 28, 2018 by sjaak327

[sjaak327]

1 hour ago, bangrak said:

'The electorate have consistently, repeatedly made a choice, time after time after time': I would be so happy for the Thai people when it would be so, 'JAG', but when you are honest, you know damn well it is not so, it was not so before the Shins came up with an own political party, and it was also not so with their political formations.

It would be so great and beautiful when Thai citizens would be allowed, and helped (...the long process of unprejudiced education which has not yet started) to analyse a complex situation, to make valid choices for themselves and the next generations' future, to select a political movement with a clear, realistic program in that direction, and to vote for candidates they know they can trust to represent them honestly!

That's what everyone should want for Thailand, to give 'democracy' a, first(!), chance to be born and grow! The group of persons you allude to had a chance to start doing so, but what came out of it ...?

Quote: 'democracy is not my goal', Thaksin Shinawatra, enough said?

Oh my god, I happen to know quite a few Thaksin voters, and believe it or not, they are not forced to vote for him, they are reasonably well educated, and they vote for him because other than previous politicians, he actually made things happen in their neck of the woods.

 

why oh why do people like you try to play the education card, I dare say that many of those people know full well what they choose and why.

 

There was democracy in Thailand, the big problem Thailand faces is that the other side is not ready for it, as democracy isn't only voting, it isn't only checks and balances, it also entails that the minority accept majority rule. Stop playing the education card, it is untrue, disgraceful and places anyone playing it, out of the discussion.

[Happyman58]

8 hours ago, bangrak said:

'JAG', I guess I want, more than you, Thai people to choose their own ...MPs to vote in their own majority government, in a honest, transparent general election, void from vote rigging/buying, void from hardhanded influence on rural communities, North, East, South, central plains, everywhere! ...That while the PTP/UDD ...Shins' propagandists, who, maybe, I hope, do not realise that what they bring forward has nothing ado with 'democracy', at least in the way true democrats (from abroad) perceive it, and live according to the principles of(!) (quite hard work it is, with more duties and sacrifice than rights and leisure), but just the Thai shadow puppetry image the show-called-democracy in this country is about, call it 'Dems', call it the Shins' owned TRT/PPP/PTP (and UDD thugs) it is all about power and money, greed and corruption, NOT about 'the people', 'the people' it should be ALL about, in anything a bit close to starting building a 'democracy', don't you get it, really, you don't, do you? What a crying shame when you don't!

That is a wonderful dream Bangrak to want all that I hope one day that happens for you and all Thai people. Where I come from they call it " a fair go" so everybody is treated equal and are all at the same. Its call one vote for one person to have a say in what future you want for your country. I see it this way, Thai people are waiting at this starting line for the race to begin for democracy. But here  the race will never be fair for most ordinary people who are waiting at this starting line for the gun to go off,  to start the race because the people who control the economy the rich and powerful who have a vested interest who is in power so they can make more money are sitting on motorbikes halfway up the racetrack waiting for the gun to go off so they can win the race. They would do anything to win this race so they have complete control. That is why Thailand will stay a 3rd world country for a long time even with this economy growing at 5%,

[tomta]

7 hours ago, bangrak said:

It would be so great and beautiful when Thai citizens would be allowed, and helped (...the long process of unprejudiced education which has not yet started) to analyse a complex situation, to make valid choices for themselves and the next generations' future, to select a political movement with a clear, realistic program in that direction, and to vote for candidates they know they can trust to represent them honestly!

So it's not just any choice, it's an "educated" choice that is needed. This is just code for the peasants are stupid can't be trusted to make the right decision and don't deserve a vote. Do you support the serious suggestions that have been made by 'educated' people with no understanding of modern democracy  that voting be linked to educational qualifications as candidacy for the parliament was? 

[tomta]

7 hours ago, bangrak said:

Quote: 'democracy is not my goal', Thaksin Shinawatra, enough said?

No not enough said, Bangrak. I have no brief for TS but this is a continually distorted , half quote that is peddled by falsifiers of history. 

 

Enough said? No, next time, use the full quote: “Democracy is a good and beautiful thing, but it’s not the ultimate goal as far as administering the country is concerned,” he said. “Democracy is just a tool, not our goal. The goal is to give people a good lifestyle, happiness and national progress.”  https://thethaiger.com/news/phuket/Democracy-not-goal-Thaksin

[KiwiKiwi]

11 hours ago, bangrak said:

'JAG', I guess I want, more than you, Thai people to choose their own ...MPs to vote in their own majority government, in a honest, transparent general election, void from vote rigging/buying, void from hardhanded influence on rural communities, North, East, South, central plains, everywhere! ...That while the PTP/UDD ...Shins' propagandists, who, maybe, I hope, do not realise that what they bring forward has nothing ado with 'democracy', at least in the way true democrats (from abroad) perceive it, and live according to the principles of(!) (quite hard work it is, with more duties and sacrifice than rights and leisure), but just the Thai shadow puppetry image the show-called-democracy in this country is about, call it 'Dems', call it the Shins' owned TRT/PPP/PTP (and UDD thugs) it is all about power and money, greed and corruption, NOT about 'the people', 'the people' it should be ALL about, in anything a bit close to starting building a 'democracy', don't you get it, really, you don't, do you? What a crying shame when you don't!

 

 

Dream on, friend. This is Thailand, the normal rules don't apply.