Thai Immigration Cracks Down On Foreign Teachers

[Petesear]

People are the issue here, not their qualifications. If all of this has happened because of a few purves and drop-outs then criminal checks should be in order and nothing else. If a school is not happy with the 'teaching' abilities of a 'teacher' then maybe there should be a Thai website containing the names of incompetent teachers where they could post the relevent names therefore making it easier to weed out the bad. I'm sure, even if a school doesn't want to see your degree it wants your name! That way the kids here might learn something rather than nothing.

[Ijustwannateach]

I wouldn't ban you for what is often the truth, Blam. It's not impossible for someone to get a good uni education here, but it sure is unlikely- just look at the childish "textbooks" frequently used. College level study of a foreign language back home would mean literature, older forms of the language, linguistics, and applied purposes such as business/technical language- pretty hardcore stuff. In Thailand, frequently it means even MORE conversation.

A lot of the stuff on this thread is half-baked nonsense, but unfortunately allowing a lot of that is what a forum is about.

[SeanBangkok]

CONSOLING? COUNCELING? Definitely in need of English lessons.

Show the guy some respect, he's gone to school for 10 years to get that degree in "Family Consoling".

[Trev]

Actually paulsmithson,if your trying to teach someone a new language your not supposed to use their own native language to communicate with them.

My old man pointed this out to me.I am sure many of the teachers here aren't supposed to speak any Thai to the kids,or so i have heard anyway...?

Yes, that is a prevailing theory and may well be correct (I have my doubts). However, getting started in reality is a different story.

Also, and more importantly, having an understanding of the student's first language certainly helps one to understand why they make the mistakes they do and how to help them to correct the mistakes. This is something I have come to realise in my 4 years teaching here in Thailand. When you understand some of their language you can more effectively help them bridge the gap to their second language.

This is why I am a proponent of helping those serious and dedicated people who are doing this job for the right reasons of whom there are many. They are here on the ground making a real effort for the one intangible reward in teaching, helping the students. They have developed a working relationship with Thais and Thai language and culture. They are an asset to the education community in Thailand. Helping these people to reach the necessary standards of the profession of teaching or be acknowledged for already reaching said standards will benefit everyone.

Having the standards is also important as it helps to weed out all the people who would like to do the job for all the wrong reasons.

[Petesear]

Relating to the original news post, are we not given the names and nationalities of those to be deported...? We always have been

[Dupont]

I am really happy to see this. I meet so many people here under fake degrees and many admitt it to me like it is some kind of joke. Get those people out of here.

Is that like Counceling?

We don't ususally pull people up for crap English on here, but as yours is so dreadful, and you have set yourself up as better than most TEFL teachers here, thought I better redden a few of your worse remarks. Most of your sentences need totally re-writing BTW, I suggest you get an ape to proof read your next post. Your English here wouldn't get you a high school leaving certificate, believe me.

I love pedantic word Nazis like you who are more interested in tripping someone up, than trying to understand the meaning to the words. All communication is a way of conveying messages, thoughts, feelings and theories. The method and the correctness of the method is not important in this type of Forum. We are not at school or in a test environment. YOUR WORST MISTAKE WAS TO TRY TO CORRECT HIM and then to make a spelling mistake yourself. Your own stupidity and arrogance is starting to show. If you still have not worked out which word you got wrong then please reply and i will tell. Alternatively, you can do a sneaky edit. DO you understand?

I'm totally against correcting English, I obviously read his post better than you did, and certainly better that you did mine.

I am a plumber by trade and a Guesthouse owner now. The point I was making was that some glib supposed intellectual came on here and pulled people to bits for not having a degree. Not only that, he was saying get rid of em! "Get those people out of here"! Just because they don't have a degree in interfering in family and married life. Thats what my post was target at.

We were at him for being a pompous ass, not for being bad at english. It's not an issue for me to be semi-illiterate as I am not an English teacher, one with an exam at that.

Whatever his qualifications, it was a slack, lazy nasty little piece wot he had rit!

i shoud be I by the way Adolph

[puipuitom]

Simply stated: Thai teachers, Thai teaching methods, and Thai schools in general... are a joke.

Thai graduates with a Bachelor's Degree in Electronics Engineering can just barely get a job as a waiter anywhere else in the world.

I will say it clearly here, a high school education in the west is superior to a Bachelor's Degree in Thailand.

Time to think Malaysia, Vietnam, China, and Singapore, they all now have systems in place for teaching their inquiring students how to succeed in the REAL world. Thailand, unfortunately is aligning itself with Burma, Kampuchea, and Laos in the magic belief of "nepotism as perfection" system.

Im buy foods from Thailand since 1976 and sorry: MUST AGREE

From 93-94 in Thaland with an BAC mechanical engineering, but a simple boy of 16 in Germany would know / do better.

In 1999 we got an BAC from Ramkhamhaeng to Europe. Sorry, but a graduate from High School knows more here.

Most Thai only can copy, copy, and copy, but to invent themselves any new ? Forget it.

And those few we ARE bright, hardly get a chance, as ... the elder knows ALWAYS better, simply because that person is ELDER.

Thailand: a nearly sunken ship. Everybody dansing, as now they can swim off the deck

[robint]

I take it that all the knowledgeable poster are aware of the venerable site

www.ajarn.com

and several others of its ilk which are easily found via google

DO YOUR HOMEWORK

[brahmburgers]

Sure some foreign teachers are below par. Hey school administrators: observe new teachers while they're teaching - and keep tabs on them. IF ANY DON'T AREN'T DOING A SATISFACTORY JOB OF IT - TELL THEM TO LEAVE !!! Or better than that, HAVE A FARANG SCREEN NEW TEACHERS. He/she will be able to gauge quickly whether that person has a good handle on the language. Thais usually can't, because English is too foreign, and they have a tough time gauging foreignor's personalities via interviews - or should I say they're too easily duped by appearances.

How about gauging the value of a teacher on how well he/she teaches?!? A degree, whether real or not, is only a slight indicator of ability.

With few exceptions, native Thais who teach English cannot speak nor understand English near as well as a native English speaker. A significant proportion of Thais who teach English ARE ACTUALLY DOING MORE HARM THAN GOOD - I've seen it first hand - when I look at some of the assignements they hand out to students - the wording is difficult and confusing and is not geared toward teaching the language. Rather it's convoluted semantics that makeS little sense. Thai administrators don't know how miscombobulated the lessons are because most of them can barely speak English.

This news of lay-offs or deportations of farang is especially ridiculous in lieu of 22 teachers who died last week. Anyone who gives a hoot about enabling Thai students to speak rudimentary English should encourage as many native English speakers as possible - to get involved with their education. If there are some baddies - Weed 'em out !!!!!!!!

Biz as usual (status quo) will ensure that most Thai university graduates will continue to not be able to converse in nor understand simple English. Sad sad sad.

[Jonson83]

Actually paulsmithson,if your trying to teach someone a new language your not supposed to use their own native language to communicate with them.

My old man pointed this out to me.I am sure many of the teachers here aren't supposed to speak any Thai to the kids,or so i have heard anyway...?

Yes, that is a prevailing theory and may well be correct (I have my doubts). However, getting started in reality is a different story.

Also, and more importantly, having an understanding of the student's first language certainly helps one to understand why they make the mistakes they do and how to help them to correct the mistakes. This is something I have come to realise in my 4 years teaching here in Thailand. When you understand some of their language you can more effectively help them bridge the gap to their second language.

This is why I am a proponent of helping those serious and dedicated people who are doing this job for the right reasons of whom there are many. They are here on the ground making a real effort for the one intangible reward in teaching, helping the students. They have developed a working relationship with Thais and Thai language and culture. They are an asset to the education community in Thailand. Helping these people to reach the necessary standards of the profession of teaching or be acknowledged for already reaching said standards will benefit everyone.

Having the standards is also important as it helps to weed out all the people who would like to do the job for all the wrong reasons.

Are you suggesting that EFL teachers should have to take Thai language tests before they can start teaching?

Personelly, i hope to go from being able to speak a little thai,to a lot by this time next year.

[Neeranam]

Whilst I think that a degree is not a necessary qualification for a teacher of languages surely the ability to communicate effectively in the language of the student is a major advantage, even more so at primary school level where the students command of English will be at best limited.

Nonsense.

Did your wife's English teacher in England speak Thai?

Speaking Thai in the classroom can help with management.

A lot of the stuff on this thread is half-baked nonsense,

Nonsense.

[Dupont]

O.T. Iv'e wondered for a while why it isn't easier to find a legit degree course in this country. I tried to get one years ago at Ramkhanhaeng but nobody ever answered E-Mails and my phone calls were returned.

I would never teach here now without the BA as I have far too much to loose.

I would teach though if I could get a degree in a relevant subject. I even tried to get on a degree course in Thai language and Culture as I can only see me staying here in another 10 years time if I have PR status.

No need to answer on here, I'm going to take ijustwannateach's advice and haunt the teaching forum for a few months. The Thai language section on here is also fantastic and I have picked up so many useful information and web sites from it. It's so interesting (this is my real passion) that I never post on there.

This thread is going nowhere, and I've got my self pulled into a ridiculous conversation. Stops here though. See you on the teachers forum.

[Trev]

Are you suggesting that EFL teachers should have to take Thai language tests before they can start teaching?

Personelly, i hope to go from being able to speak a little thai,to a lot by this time next year.

Not suggesting that at all. Just supporting the idea that understanding the student's first language helps.

[teddy_bare]

Actually paulsmithson,if your trying to teach someone a new language your not supposed to use their own native language to communicate with them.

My old man pointed this out to me.I am sure many of the teachers here aren't supposed to speak any Thai to the kids,or so i have heard anyway...?

Yes, that is a prevailing theory and may well be correct (I have my doubts). However, getting started in reality is a different story.

Also, and more importantly, having an understanding of the student's first language certainly helps one to understand why they make the mistakes they do and how to help them to correct the mistakes. This is something I have come to realise in my 4 years teaching here in Thailand. When you understand some of their language you can more effectively help them bridge the gap to their second language.

This is why I am a proponent of helping those serious and dedicated people who are doing this job for the right reasons of whom there are many. They are here on the ground making a real effort for the one intangible reward in teaching, helping the students. They have developed a working relationship with Thais and Thai language and culture. They are an asset to the education community in Thailand. Helping these people to reach the necessary standards of the profession of teaching or be acknowledged for already reaching said standards will benefit everyone.

Having the standards is also important as it helps to weed out all the people who would like to do the job for all the wrong reasons.

Absolutely, whilst serving in the British Army my German teacher retaught the whole class English grammer before teaching one word of German. That would have been impossible had her English language skills had been anything but excellent. How many teachers of English in Thailand can confess to having more than average Thai Language skills let alone written skill? i have taught myself to read and write Thai, but it would have been impossible without the help of fairly decent English speaking Thais who could explain common rules and exceptions.

I agreed the thai government has every right to demand standards. who knows one day after there are no more foreigners in their country maybe they will take a look at some of they own practices. BTW All countries demonise the enemy. Why should Thailand be any different. Shame as i will probably leave a perfectly good g/f because it's too difficult to live here. Who wins?

[Heng]

Making it harder on foreigners...

Again, not all foreigners, just those without degrees.

[Neeranam]

i have taught myself to read and write Thai, but it would have been impossible without the help of fairly decent English speaking Thais who could explain common rules and exceptions.

I learnt Thai without any English speaking Thais. Reading and speaking.

It is by far the best way. Never get a Thai teacher who speaks English to you.

[astral]

I believe that a degree is the requirement to teach English, but does this apply to teaching other subjects?

This is not an uncommon criterion for teachers of all subjects, around the world.

I the UK many teachers do not have degrees

Yes and look at the current state of UK education........

[astral]

What degrees should we have as teachers?

Nice one.

Does my degree in Engineering qualify me to teach anything, never mind English?

Yes I am a native speaker

In the UK the answer is definitely No.

I need a further Certificate in Education, which I do have.

I have been teaching about computers in industry for the last 30 years,

but I would not dare to try and teach English without further training,

[thai_narak]

Simply stated: Thai teachers, Thai teaching methods, and Thai schools in general... are a joke.

Thai graduates with a Bachelor's Degree in Electronics Engineering can just barely get a job as a waiter anywhere else in the world.

I will say it clearly here, a high school education in the west is superior to a Bachelor's Degree in Thailand.

Time to think Malaysia, Vietnam, China, and Singapore, they all now have systems in place for teaching their inquiring students how to succeed in the REAL world. Thailand, unfortunately is aligning itself with Burma, Kampuchea, and Laos in the magic belief of "nepotism as perfection" system.

Im buy foods from Thailand since 1976 and sorry: MUST AGREE

From 93-94 in Thaland with an BAC mechanical engineering, but a simple boy of 16 in Germany would know / do better.

In 1999 we got an BAC from Ramkhamhaeng to Europe. Sorry, but a graduate from High School knows more here.

Most Thai only can copy, copy, and copy, but to invent themselves any new ? Forget it.

And those few we ARE bright, hardly get a chance, as ... the elder knows ALWAYS better, simply because that person is ELDER.

Thailand: a nearly sunken ship. Everybody dansing, as now they can swim off the deck

My gosh... where are you from?

[Johpa]

duplicate post removed by poster

Edited January 31, 2007 by Johpa

[Johpa]

Totally agree Steve. I too have worked in the IT industry for 20 years and know many students who have come with a degree and are totally useless and then may people without a degree but with the determination to succeed and learn who have been wonders. Degrees are given away these days just for attendance!

As far as the IT industry, you can not compare a job where one interacts with a machine with a job where you are required to interact with up to 30 people at once. You can not compare a job where there is, theoretically a correct answer with a job where there are often no answers. I have seen young teens who are whizzes at IT jobs, big deal. The fact that IT people often receive high compensation for their "talents" does not alter the fact that their jobs can often be done just as well by a talented 14 year old kid. Clearly in a field that has many aspects that can be mastered before high school, a degree is not relevent.

Teaching English one-on-one or to a very small group also takes little professional skills as the personal one-on-one interaction is the methodology and it is very effective. But teaching English competently to a class of 30, where personal one-on-one interaction is rather limited, does require some skill and considerable background. One had better be able to craft up a lesson plan and one had better be able to diagnose individual issues, be they personal or linguistic, rather quickly. Not that there are no great English teachers without degrees, but certainly you will not find any 14 year olds who are masters of the craft.

<Sorry if this post is redundant or repeats an previous, but I can't be bothered to read 16 pages of posts>

Edited January 31, 2007 by Johpa

[PeaceBlondie]

*sigh*

You didn't learn English just because you overheard your big sister say, "Ma, pass me the potatoes, please." You waddled into kindergarten and started being taught by educated teachers with university degrees. And you may never have learned grammar.

How do you teach the difference between "I have gone" and "I went," without using the students' native language, and using only English words they already understand?

How do you plan to teach a lesson on the present continuous, or the present progressive...or are those names for the same thing, ing, ing? What would you have done if the senior English teacher (an Ed.D in a secondary school) handed you a paper handout for all your M4 students, which included the passive future perfect progressive tense? I think you would have been being very confused, conditionally.

How do you answer the many forms of "Why does English do that, teacher?"

Is the name of the final letter of the alphabet zee or zed?

How do you handle two argumentative Thai teachers of English who ask you to settle their disagreement over a lousy test question with four wrong answers - which answer is the best?

Oh, and before leaving today, can you please correct the Director's essay in Methods of Thai School Administration and also write his speech for next week's visitors from the Belgian Linguistic Institute?

Wait - Ajarn Imasaddateecha needs to know the differences among "junta, regime, benevelent monarchy, fasicism, and plutocracy."

[DragonQuest]

Unfortunalty Thailand is a corupt country, so with a corupt country come corupt rules, peolpe, teachers corupt anything for that matter! but thats everywhere in the world, the only thing that i can see to make things better is beefing up the TEFL ,and making new recruits pass a test, exam, and training course all in one in order to satisfy everyone.

[liberty9133]

It would appear that Thailand doesn't quite know what it wants. They seem to be under the misapprehension that they can continue to be uniquely Thai and, at the same time, grab hold of the brass ring(an American expression) and participate equally in the global marketplace.

I remember the movie, The King and I. In it, there was a scene where the English(British) teacher was shown the map of Siam. The map depicted a Siam that was approximately, if I recall correctly, the size of Eurasia while the other countries of the world were smaller than the Luxembourg!! I understand that it was only a movie. It does, however, point to the cultural rift that Thais face vis a vis the 1st world leading countries.

If one looks at all the dictatorial orders coming out of the current regime, one sees an attempt to return somehow to a Siam of the past. All things Thai are good and proper. I love many things about the Thai people. I wish, frankly, that they would return to their simpler ways much as a parent wishes that their rebellious teenager would somehow magically be two again. Sadly, neither will occur. We must allow the Thais to find their way. There will be stumbling and false-starts, hesitations and missteps. Some of you will be caught in the backwash. But it is their country not yours or mine. wish as we might that it were not so.

Perhaps, we must begin to elicit the support of those who do count in Thai society and government. The social, if not political, activist can do much to help the Thais sort this out. Maybe and perhaps they will allow some participation. Or not.

[liberty9133]

corrupt is spelled with 2 "r"s. Perhaps, that is why we need more professional teachers?

Unfortunalty Thailand is a corupt country, so with a corupt country come corupt rules, peolpe, teachers corupt anything for that matter! but thats everywhere in the world, the only thing that i can see to make things better is beefing up the TEFL ,and making new recruits pass a test, exam, and training course all in one in order to satisfy everyone.

[Laulen]

corrupt is spelled with 2 "r"s. Perhaps, that is why we need more professional teachers?

Unfortunalty Thailand is a corupt country, so with a corupt country come corupt rules, peolpe, teachers corupt anything for that matter! but thats everywhere in the world, the only thing that i can see to make things better is beefing up the TEFL ,and making new recruits pass a test, exam, and training course all in one in order to satisfy everyone.

Ouch! Well spotted! Probably 'ffatt finngerr syndrome!' And, some teachers I know deliberately put in mistakes, as a 'motivating' factor for their lessons!

[blam]

It would appear that Thailand doesn't quite know what it wants.

Well said liberty9133, I tend to disagree however:

Thailand knows exactly what it wants: It wants to be the 22 year old kid driving a new bright red BMW with an E70 portable phone that has never had to learn what a polynomial is, never had to read a book with more than 40 pages of cartoons in it, and certainly has never had to an hour's worth of real work in his life.

Think clearly now, why are all of the big corporations bailing out of the Kingdom at such a nasty clip? Answer: Poorly educated, untrustworthy, and incapable working staff.

The last 6 years have been a "proofing of the yeast" of the top to bottom levels of corruption here. Taksin was grooming a class of people that would only continue to support the rich. Real education in Thailand is a sham. Corruption is the norm.

Blaming the farangs?

Blaming farang teachers for doping their resume is insane. For goodness sake, take a little walk tomorrow and go into any Thai classroom as a visitor, you will see a totally chaotic mess that only seems to exist here in Thailand. It doesn't matter whether you are in Fang, Bangkok, or Songkla, it is completely unfathomable by anyone that has ever seen it. Farang teachers try to correct it in their own way in their own classrooms, but in the end always find a fall back position to a system of non cooperation they never would have thought they would have to resort to in the past.

Just one simple example: Ask any Thai student, any one at any level, to point to Thailand on a map... invariably they will choose North America. Reality is the answer here. Blaming farang teachers for ANYTHING is beyond stupid! It is in fact an act of desperately heretical fanatics looking to 'poison the well' (create innuendo to take focus away from the stinking crude reality of the true education system in Thailand.)

There is only ONE individual that can possibly get Thailand back on track. He is wonderful, he is kind, he in fact is a completely brilliant human being, and the only one man that has the tools and the wherewithall at his disposal to do it. I won't say his name in public here, but I think anyone can guess who he is. It has reached that point.

Old and in the way in Phuket.

Edited January 31, 2007 by blam

[brahmburgers]

Hey Guys,

I'm not familiar with all of the customs and regulations in Thailand. Question on the topic at hand: My wife recently got hired to teach english at a hotel in Khao Lak.

What kind of background check would they do and what is a discriminating black mark?

Also what kind of education is she required to have to get a work permit?

is your wife Thai or farang? If she's Thai she won't have any burning hoops to jump through. If she's farang, then I'm not qualified to answer your good questions. However, maintaining a low profile never hurts. Everything in Thailand is subjective, so if authorities stick their noses in that scenario, then your (farang) wife's Thai bosses can probably smooth out any concerns that might crop up.

Let's just hope she's not a husband raper (sorry, I just had to toss that in there, as a commentary to the ridiculous legislation passed two weeks ago by the ever-bumbling Thai leaders).

[paulsmithson]

There are so many conundrums about the english language. so many ways of forming past and future tenses being just the tip of the ice berg.

I will never understand how anyone not fluent in thai could really explain these to the younger Thai students.

One thing I must add here is that my wife returned to thailand last year for a short visit to sort out a medical problem for her mother. She was visiting many hospitals and stayed with family members around the Bangkok area and was impressed with the level of English spoken by so many Thai people she came into contact with( not only medical staff).

Some of you guys there must be doing an excellent job! Thank you

[pap]

corrupt is spelled with 2 "r"s. Perhaps, that is why we need more professional teachers?

Unfortunalty Thailand is a corupt country, so with a corupt country come corupt rules, peolpe, teachers corupt anything for that matter! but thats everywhere in the world, the only thing that i can see to make things better is beefing up the TEFL ,and making new recruits pass a test, exam, and training course all in one in order to satisfy everyone.

Ouch! Well spotted! Probably 'ffatt finngerr syndrome!' And, some teachers I know deliberately put in mistakes, as a 'motivating' factor for their lessons!

Spellink as a gauge of intelegence is the crutch of a weak mind. It cracks me up when I see this one. Many of the peeple I know who are very riche can't spall and yet they are still very rich.