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[Stephen Cleary]

The Min. of Ed, the Thai press and even the immigration have been having a fine time lately, lambasting Farang teachers for their dodgy credentials.

From what I have learned, the recent inspection of 1,000 foreign teachers' qualifications by the Min. of Ed, did not include any Filipinos.

Now, over the years when i was mostly in the capital, I used to have to do my own personal analysis of a lot of teacher wanna-bes paperwork, and to decipher for myself whether they were 'passable'

Of course, I used to see a lot of phony credentials - but perhaps the worse I witnessed, were the ones submitted by Filipinos. Unlike their Phony Farang counterparts, most of the Fakey Filipinos had the nerve to claim a degree in education, often majoring in English. Now, it's not too tricky to spot, just by his skills in class, whether a teacher has actually graduated in education or not.

How else do I know about such Filipino fakers? Well, I didn't clarify with the university, I just inspected their photocopied degrees. A couple once, had been so dumb to 'liquid paper' over the years, another two friends once handed in their photocopied degrees from the same university. Must have thought I was pretty daft, as their transcripts were all exactly the same etc….

What really would be scenario in schools, if the Min of Ed also decided to clampdown on Filipinos?

By the way, how come a former Prime Minister from a few years back - after having been caught submitting a fake degree - wasn't sent to prison for three months just like those two Farang teachers recently?

Edited February 3, 2007 by PeaceBlondie
Not just Filipinos! Thais, too!!

[Ijustwannateach]

I agree that checks on all FOREIGN teachers (let's not pick on the Filipinos specifically) should be done consistently. Otherwise instead of potentially underqualified or dodgy American and British teachers, you'll simply have potentially underqualified or dodgy Pakistani, Indian, and Filipino teachers- not exactly what I think the new regulations are supposed to achieve.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

That reminds me of the Egyptian guy who applied to teach English in a northern province. How do you check if there's a University of Gotzdowhaput in Cairo? (I just invented that one). Where's the list of accredited schools in Agusan del Norte, or County Galway? There must be a lot of unis in India.

Agreed, if teachers' credentials are going to be checked, let's check them all, including Ajarn Sasapacha with her diploma from East Nakhon Obscura Rajabat.

[graesta]

The Min. of Ed, the Thai press and even the immigration have been having a fine time lately, lambasting Farang teachers for their dodgy credentials.

From what I have learned, the recent inspection of 1,000 foreign teachers' qualifications by the Min. of Ed, did not include any Filipinos.

Now, over the years when i was mostly in the capital, I used to have to do my own personal analysis of a lot of teacher wanna-bes paperwork, and to decipher for myself whether they were 'passable'

Of course, I used to see a lot of phony credentials - but perhaps the worse I witnessed, were the ones submitted by Filipinos. Unlike their Phony Farang counterparts, most of the Fakey Filipinos had the nerve to claim a degree in education, often majoring in English. Now, it's not too tricky to spot, just by his skills in class, whether a teacher has actually graduated in education or not.

How else do I know about such Filipino fakers? Well, I didn't clarify with the university, I just inspected their photocopied degrees. A couple once, had been so dumb to 'liquid paper' over the years, another two friends once handed in their photocopied degrees from the same university. Must have thought I was pretty daft, as their transcripts were all exactly the same etc….

What really would be scenario in schools, if the Min of Ed also decided to clampdown on Filipinos?

By the way, how come a former Prime Minister from a few years back - after having been caught submitting a fake degree - wasn't sent to prison for three months just like those two Farang teachers recently?

so why didn't you report them?

sorry steven.. you weren't supposed to be qouted

[Ijustwannateach]

No problem, I'll zap it.

[aussiestyle1983]

They need to be checked as well. There are good and bad from all races so it is only fair to check everyone.

[DragonQuest]

agreed EVERYONE needs to be checked, not matter where he/shes from. but it seems that there is alot of coruption these days in thailand.

Edited January 31, 2007 by DragonQuest

[Scott]

Whoa, I believe everyone is checked. We certainly check on the creditials of nationalities from any country.

It's much harder for a Filipino, Egyptian or Indian to try to pass themselves off as an "English" teacher without proper documents. Proper documents still won't usually get them a job, there English has to be very, very good as well. In addition, they have to take an English Language test as a part of their Teacher's License.

Checking means checking of all foreign nationals. Locals have a different system in place and I know at my school they are checked as well.

[PeaceBlondie]

Scott, your experience and mine seem to be at opposite extremes.

When I applied at the first three schools that hired me, nobody checked my degree, asked for transcripts, asked me about my alma mater, what courses I studied, conducted criminal checks, etc. Nor did the 3 or 4 agencies I've applied at over the years. I worked a whole year full time based on word of mouth from the teachers across town who almost rioted when I wasn't rehired.

There is never a crackdown on the schools' administrators who don't have a clue about how to tell a dodgy candidate from a bona fide candidate for a teaching job. Do they even check prior job references?

[aussiestyle1983]

Do they even check prior job references?

I doubt they would know how to........................

Especially when it come to making International Calls

Also, some elployers will not give out information about present or past employess wthout the consent of that person, just like most universities.

Edited February 1, 2007 by aussiestyle1983

[GracelessFawn]

The Min. of Ed, the Thai press and even the immigration have been having a fine time lately, lambasting Farang teachers for their dodgy credentials.

From what I have learned, the recent inspection of 1,000 foreign teachers' qualifications by the Min. of Ed, did not include any Filipinos.

Now, over the years when i was mostly in the capital, I used to have to do my own personal analysis of a lot of teacher wanna-bes paperwork, and to decipher for myself whether they were 'passable'

Of course, I used to see a lot of phony credentials - but perhaps the worse I witnessed, were the ones submitted by Filipinos. Unlike their Phony Farang counterparts, most of the Fakey Filipinos had the nerve to claim a degree in education, often majoring in English. Now, it's not too tricky to spot, just by his skills in class, whether a teacher has actually graduated in education or not.

How else do I know about such Filipino fakers? Well, I didn't clarify with the university, I just inspected their photocopied degrees. A couple once, had been so dumb to 'liquid paper' over the years, another two friends once handed in their photocopied degrees from the same university. Must have thought I was pretty daft, as their transcripts were all exactly the same etc….

What really would be scenario in schools, if the Min of Ed also decided to clampdown on Filipinos?

By the way, how come a former Prime Minister from a few years back - after having been caught submitting a fake degree - wasn't sent to prison for three months just like those two Farang teachers recently?

Hey, our (Filipinos) transcripts and diplomas might not always look fancy and official, but at least, they are real! Have you ever heard of a Filipino with fake credentials (transcripts, diplomas, certificates)? I bet not!

You know, it might surprise you how many Filipinos out there are not only well-educated, but are very hard-working and efficient as well! I do not mean to brag, but I finished my AB Maj in Pol Sci degree in the Philippines and finished my AB Min in Education Psychology here in Thailand. How about that? (I am aware that I am nothing, but at 26 and with 5 years of teaching experience in my belt, I know that I have something to be proud of! Who knows???? I might even pursue my masters a few years from now!)

I heard that the "Khao San Rd Fixers" provided the MOE (Ministry of Education) a list of the names of people who bought degrees, TEFL certs, diplomas and etc.

Now, the big question is........ why aren't there any Filipinos in that list?

[aussiestyle1983]

The Min. of Ed, the Thai press and Hey, our (Filipinos) transcripts and diplomas might not always look fancy and official, but at least, they are real! Have you ever heard of a Filipino with fake credentials (transcripts, diplomas, certificates)? I bet not!

I heard that the "Khao San Rd Fixers" provided the MOE (Ministry of Education) a list of the names of people who bought degrees, TEFL certs, diplomas and etc.

Now, the big question is........ why aren't there any Filipinos in that list?

You should be a comedian, that post made me laugh.

Management at my school only last week informed us of that there are Filipinos working for other branches of our school that are using or have no Degree or fake degrees, which conflicts with you little rant above.

In fact, the Filipino recruiter (who has 7 realitives employed at my school) has been accused by other Filipinos of having a fake degree. So now we have Filipinos accusing Filipinos of holding fake degrees.

I don't know what planet your from, but you certanially seem to believe that there are no bad Filipinos who use fake degrees which is far from the truth.

And I'm sure there are Filipinos on the list from KSR, because I know of one who quit her job because she was concerned she would get busted for he fake degree (from KSR)

The rest of the Filipinos who have fake degrees would not be on the list because they didnt purschase their fakes from KSR in BKK, they went to the Manilla version of KSR..................

Are you gonna deny that they dont sell fake degrees in your country now as well, I bet not.

Edited February 1, 2007 by aussiestyle1983

[GracelessFawn]

People, I have come to believe that this post is damaging and hurtful, not only to Filipinos, but to other Asians like Pakistanis and Indians, as well.

There are good and bad teachers and there are worse! I do not think it is appropriate to single-out nationalities. While it is true that some Filipinos cannot teach at all, it cannot be denied that other teachers from different countries like Canada, USA, UK, etc. cannot teach as well! (Believe me, I don't walk around in BKK with my eyes closed!)

Instead of moaning, why not do something about the problem? For starters, a good administrator should not only check the credentials of an applicant, but should scrutinize the applicant's teaching skills more importantly. After all, there are good teachers and there are 'good' teachers!

Teachers are born, right?

[GracelessFawn]

The Min. of Ed, the Thai press and Hey, our (Filipinos) transcripts and diplomas might not always look fancy and official, but at least, they are real! Have you ever heard of a Filipino with fake credentials (transcripts, diplomas, certificates)? I bet not!

I heard that the "Khao San Rd Fixers" provided the MOE (Ministry of Education) a list of the names of people who bought degrees, TEFL certs, diplomas and etc.

Now, the big question is........ why aren't there any Filipinos in that list?

You should be a comedian, that post made me laugh.

Management at my school only last week informed us of that there are Filipinos working for other branches of our school that are using or have no Degree or fake degrees, which conflicts with you little rant above.

In fact, the Filipino recruiter (who has 7 realitives employed at my school) has been accused by other Filipinos of having a fake degree. So now we have Filipinos accusing Filipinos of holding fake degrees.

I don't know what planet your from, but you certanially seem to believe that there are no bad Filipinos who use fake degrees which is far from the truth.

And I'm sure there are Filipinos on the list from KSR, because I know of one who quit her job because she was concerned she would get busted for he fake degree (from KSR)

The rest of the Filipinos who have fake degrees would not be on the list because they didnt purschase their fakes from KSR in BKK, they went to the Manilla version of KSR..................

Are you gonna deny that they dont sell fake degrees in your country now as well, I bet not.

OK...... (If this is how you want to play this game, then let me tell you something that's very real.)

My Xbf was a 'shop rat' from Michigan and he didn't even finish high-school. He bought everything he needed (so he could teach) when he got to BKK.

Now, I have a big question for you....... Does it really matter where 'the fake degrees are bought or being sold?'

A criminal act committed in Thailand, The Philippines, The United States of America, Australia (your country), UK, etc is still a criminal act!

[aussiestyle1983]

The Min. of Ed, the Thai press and Hey, our (Filipinos) transcripts and diplomas might not always look fancy and official, but at least, they are real! Have you ever heard of a Filipino with fake credentials (transcripts, diplomas, certificates)? I bet not!

I heard that the "Khao San Rd Fixers" provided the MOE (Ministry of Education) a list of the names of people who bought degrees, TEFL certs, diplomas and etc.

Now, the big question is........ why aren't there any Filipinos in that list?

You should be a comedian, that post made me laugh.

Management at my school only last week informed us of that there are Filipinos working for other branches of our school that are using or have no Degree or fake degrees, which conflicts with you little rant above.

In fact, the Filipino recruiter (who has 7 realitives employed at my school) has been accused by other Filipinos of having a fake degree. So now we have Filipinos accusing Filipinos of holding fake degrees.

I don't know what planet your from, but you certanially seem to believe that there are no bad Filipinos who use fake degrees which is far from the truth.

And I'm sure there are Filipinos on the list from KSR, because I know of one who quit her job because she was concerned she would get busted for he fake degree (from KSR)

The rest of the Filipinos who have fake degrees would not be on the list because they didnt purschase their fakes from KSR in BKK, they went to the Manilla version of KSR..................

Are you gonna deny that they dont sell fake degrees in your country now as well, I bet not.

OK...... (If this is how you want to play this game, then let me tell you something that's very real.)

My Xbf was a 'shop rat' from Michigan and he didn't even finish high-school. He bought everything he needed (so he could teach) when he got to BKK.

Now, I have a big question for you....... Does it really matter where 'the fake degrees are bought or being sold?'

A criminal act committed in Thailand, The Philippines, The United States of America, Australia (your country), UK, etc is still a criminal act!

This is no game. I was simply answering your questions and correcting some of your information.

You asked>

Have you ever heard of a Filipino with fake credentials (transcripts, diplomas, certificates)? I bet not!

and, I answered yes, and not only did I answer yes, I answered (not using the exact words) that I had heard of many.

You asked>

Now, the big question is........ why aren't there any Filipinos in that list?

and, I explained my thoughts about that.

To make a comment like that, I can only assume that you have seen the list and were able to see that there were no Filipinos on the list? I doubt it.

Now to answer your question>Now, I have a big question for you....... Does it really matter where 'the fake degrees are bought or being sold?'

No , it doesn't matter, a fake degree is a fake degree, regardless of where it is bought or who uses it. If you use one, you are breaking the law, regardless of who you are. A Farang and a Filipino who use a fake degree, are in the same boat.

[PeaceBlondie]

Remember, we're not comparing the values of a bachelor's degree from Cebu against one from western Manitoba; we're discussing totally fake degrees, and the abilities of Thai schools to verify whether the degree is real or fake. The consensus is that the schools cannot or will not.

[Stephen Cleary]

"Have you ever heard of a Filipino with fake credentials (transcripts, diplomas, certificates)? I bet not! "

As a former teacher recruiter, i have already explained some of my own personal experiences.

"There are good and bad teachers and there are worse! I do not think it is appropriate to single-out nationalities"

Well, that in fact is the essence of this thread opener. Caucasians have been singled-out, arrested, jailed, put on the deportation list and ridiculed by the Thai Media.

I used Filipinos as one example of a 'Crackdown' as they have been arriving to teach - en masse, just like the Caucasians (before)

As many Caucasians have been forced to leave their jobs - thus depriving their children and wives of a secure abode and future, innumerable Filipinos have been filling their positions. When in fact, a lot of them are just as phoney as the Farangs. I could have used other nationalities in the openers, such as Africans and South Asians but sadly the educational institutes here aren't in the everyday habit of welcoming them with open arms.

Edited February 1, 2007 by stevesuphan

[aussiestyle1983]

"Have you ever heard of a Filipino with fake credentials (transcripts, diplomas, certificates)? I bet not! "

As a former teacher recruiter, i have already explained some of my own personal experiences.

"There are good and bad teachers and there are worse! I do not think it is appropriate to single-out nationalities"

Well, that in fact is the essence of this thread opener. Caucasians have been singled-out, arrested, jailed, put on the deportation list and ridiculed by the Thai Media.

I used Filipinos as one example of a 'Crackdown' as they have been arriving to teach - en masse, just like the Caucasians (before)

As many Caucasians have been forced to leave their jobs - thus depriving their children and wives of a secure abode and future, innumerable Filipinos have been filling their positions. When in fact, a lot of them are just as phoney as the Farangs. I could have used other nationalities in the openers, such as Africans and South Asians but sadly the educational institutes here aren't in the everyday habit of welcoming them with open arms.

Very well said.

Not that this would happen, but I think the Thai teachers should have there credentials checked as well. Remember, this is thailand and one must have a degree to save face and suceed, for all the Thais who can not afford one, im sure KSR has been used in several cases. The fake degree makers were most likely started up for the Thais themselves, then the business grew as tourists, sex-pats, wanna be teachers and others started purschasing their degrees from here. So yeah, the Filipinos and Thais need to be checked as well, not only the native speaking Farangs who have deep pockets and can afford to pay off bribes...........

[graesta]

[

I used Filipinos as one example of a 'Crackdown' as they have been arriving to teach - en masse, just like the Caucasians (before)

As many Caucasians have been forced to leave their jobs - thus depriving their children and wives of a secure abode and future, innumerable Filipinos have been filling their positions. When in fact, a lot of them are just as phoney as the Farangs. I could have used other nationalities in the openers, such as Africans and South Asians but sadly the educational institutes here aren't in the everyday habit of welcoming them with open arms.

Yes, you could have used other nationalities or whoever. The thing is , you are all in the same boat, whatever nationality you are- limited visa runs, background, diploma check , everything and don't worry because if ever they are caught, they will stay in jail because they don't have deep pockets and can't pay the bribes.

And Filipinos filling positions.. that is just that.. when they couldn't find a farang.. they would hire a Filipino for less.

The MOE has finally made up her mind.. it may change again according to the fickleness of her mind but for the time being she just wants teachers (whatever nationality) to be qualified (degreed) and be clean ( no police records).

grace

Edited February 2, 2007 by graesta

[GracelessFawn]

Yes, you could have used other nationalities or whoever. The thing is , you are all in the same boat, whatever nationality you are- limited visa runs, background, diploma check , everything and don't worry because if ever they are caught, they will stay in jail because they don't have deep pockets and can't pay the bribes.

And Filipinos filling positions.. that is just that.. when they couldn't find a farang.. they would hire a Filipino for less.

The MOE has finally made up her mind.. it may change again according to the fickleness of her mind but for the time being she just wants teachers (whatever nationality) to be qualified (degreed) and be clean ( no police records).

grace

Less is relative! Try comparing the Peso to the $ (or other western currencies). Now, think again!

[graesta]

Less is relative! Try comparing the Peso to the $ (or other western currencies). Now, think again!

so what's your point? and try comparing.... there is no comparison. the peso couldn't even compare with the baht.

when i say less- English speakers get less than the native speakers, qualified or not- this the reality you have to come to terms with.

Grace

we make allowances- that's how we live with each other. Louis L' Amour

Edited February 2, 2007 by graesta

[aussiestyle1983]

Yes, you could have used other nationalities or whoever. The thing is , you are all in the same boat, whatever nationality you are- limited visa runs, background, diploma check , everything and don't worry because if ever they are caught, they will stay in jail because they don't have deep pockets and can't pay the bribes.

And Filipinos filling positions.. that is just that.. when they couldn't find a farang.. they would hire a Filipino for less.

The MOE has finally made up her mind.. it may change again according to the fickleness of her mind but for the time being she just wants teachers (whatever nationality) to be qualified (degreed) and be clean ( no police records).

grace

Less is relative! Try comparing the Peso to the $ (or other western currencies). Now, think again!

At least most Filipinos i work with are able to send money home to their families. 15,000 THB converted to Pesos is a good salary in their home country. When you convert 45,000 THB into Dollars in any currency it is not alot. So all the Filipinos who complain that the Farangs get more money need to realise that they are getting the same salary a teacher would get beck home, while all thought farangs are being paid 3 times more, the baht we earn here is very little compared to what we would earn in our country. so yeah, you can complain that us Farangs earn more, but we also take a big pay cut to work here. No complaints, just the facts.

I see a lot more Filipinos are able to go back home for holidays, us Farangs have to save for afew months just to afford the plane tickets.

But the imprtant thing to remember is this................

There is no point in complaining because no one put a gun to your head and made you come here to work. If you accept a job that pays 15k a month and you work with farangs who earn 40k plus, remember you are the one who accepted the job, so you either need to raise you standards and aim for higher paying jobs (which then you will realise are very limited for Filipinos) or accept the job.

[GracelessFawn]

At least most Filipinos i work with are able to send money home to their families. 15,000 THB converted to Pesos is a good salary in their home country. When you convert 45,000 THB into Dollars in any currency it is not alot. So all the Filipinos who complain that the Farangs get more money need to realise that they are getting the same salary a teacher would get beck home, while all thought farangs are being paid 3 times more, the baht we earn here is very little compared to what we would earn in our country. so yeah, you can complain that us Farangs earn more, but we also take a big pay cut to work here. No complaints, just the facts.

I see a lot more Filipinos are able to go back home for holidays, us Farangs have to save for afew months just to afford the plane tickets.

But the imprtant thing to remember is this................

There is no point in complaining because no one put a gun to your head and made you come here to work. If you accept a job that pays 15k a month and you work with farangs who earn 40k plus, remember you are the one who accepted the job, so you either need to raise you standards and aim for higher paying jobs (which then you will realise are very limited for Filipinos) or accept the job.

This is what I meant earlier, but I worded it wrong. I was distracted when typing my last post (b4 this one).

Anyway, gotta go hit the gym.

[aussiestyle1983]

At least most Filipinos i work with are able to send money home to their families. 15,000 THB converted to Pesos is a good salary in their home country. When you convert 45,000 THB into Dollars in any currency it is not alot. So all the Filipinos who complain that the Farangs get more money need to realise that they are getting the same salary a teacher would get beck home, while all thought farangs are being paid 3 times more, the baht we earn here is very little compared to what we would earn in our country. so yeah, you can complain that us Farangs earn more, but we also take a big pay cut to work here. No complaints, just the facts.

I see a lot more Filipinos are able to go back home for holidays, us Farangs have to save for afew months just to afford the plane tickets.

But the imprtant thing to remember is this................

There is no point in complaining because no one put a gun to your head and made you come here to work. If you accept a job that pays 15k a month and you work with farangs who earn 40k plus, remember you are the one who accepted the job, so you either need to raise you standards and aim for higher paying jobs (which then you will realise are very limited for Filipinos) or accept the job.

This is what I meant earlier, but I worded it wrong. I was distracted when typing my last post (b4 this one).

Anyway, gotta go hit the gym.

Okay then, if that was what you meant earlier, then why do most Filipinos bring up the issue about being paid less than Farangs? Why do Filipinos complain all the time about not getting the high salary?

If you realise that you are are getting a better deal when your compare you salary to that of your home country, then why is there a need to have a problem with farangs who get paid more baht but end up getting a lot less salary than they would in their home country?

Seems like there is no reason for Filipinos to complain about getting paid less that farangs (native speakers of the language that they are being paid to teach)

[PeaceBlondie]

Is it too much to ask to keep this topic regarding certification of teachers of all nationalities, and ask for a separate thread about the salary differentials?

[aussiestyle1983]

Back on topic.

hel_l yes, Check the Filipinos as well. There some dodgy Filipinos that work here that might not be working here after a credential check...............

If you don't agree then answer my question> Why shouldn't the Filipions be checked?

[wintermute]

I think the principle issue with these raids is that there have been pedo incidents or other high profile crimes involving caucasian males in Thailand over the years. Every year I hear of at least 3 to 4 cases being trotted out. Some of them page 2 material but nontheless it receives prolific coverage in the Thai media. Plus a lot of Thais see generally bad behavior from a certain "segment" of farangs and it's not hard for them to generalize it as a problem.

[graesta]

I think the principle issue with these raids is that there have been pedo incidents or other high profile crimes involving caucasian males in Thailand over the years. Every year I hear of at least 3 to 4 cases being trotted out. Some of them page 2 material but nontheless it receives prolific coverage in the Thai media. Plus a lot of Thais see generally bad behavior from a certain "segment" of farangs and it's not hard for them to generalize it as a problem.

Right on the head. If ever farangs were singled out it's because of these incidents.. the fake credentials issue is just an add on. though this is not a surprise anymore. the Bkk Post had articles concerning this issue.

grace

--------------

WE MAKE ALLOWANCES, THAT'S HOW WE LIVE WITH EACH OTHER.- LOUIS L'AMOUR

Edited February 3, 2007 by graesta

[aussiestyle1983]

The reason you dont hear about the incidents involving Filipinos is because they usually happen are keept between themselves and they usually run back home before they get caught here. I have seen this happen many times and the only way I was able to find out why someone was no longer with us is because another Filipino told me.

All the Filipinos I work with are some of the best people Ive worked with. I am the only Farang at my school and I work with 18 Filipinos (two of them dont have a degree) . I would rather sit in an office with Tigalo speaking Filipinos than sex tourist's and drunk Farangs. However, not all of us Farangs are bad and not all of you Filipinos are good (believe what you like) but I believe it is only fair that Filipinos be background and credential checked as well, and then we will start to find out some interesting stories.

[DragonQuest]

i work with some filipinos are they are nice and not that bad, supposively my friend said they make double of what a thai teacher make, and native's get triple of what thai make(or double of what a filipino makes)

for example:

thai teacher makes 10k+

filipina teacher makes 20k+

Native gets 30k+

, so all in all , it seems since their are no jobs in their home country thats why they are here to support the family, in any case everyone has a personal decision to work here as am I, but the influx should not be regarded to only race, cause were not to sure whats going on with the MOE , cause most of us aint thai but we do know some thai ways, Futhermore I would like to include that this Thread has been made to attack another race, it may not seem like it but im sure some filipinos would be scared reading this, just like some farang would be on the other thread, ok im rambling too much im going to sleep i feel sick tonight lol