Fighting For Our Rights In Thailand!

[p_brownstone]

We seem to have people here that just like to say something negative to this cause. To all you people including the devil himself Patpong and Samran , I recently read in Bangkok post opinion section that some Thai people have been voicing their opinions against the current Thai citizenship laws. So, that is a blow to all of you who think we should just do nothing. Peitioning the Thai governemnt is not wrong because this is how a lot people make their voices known in many countires including Hong KONG SAR. If you do not have anything to say positive about this cause then please don't commit.

Thai people and Hong Kong people petitioning or protesting to their own Governments is an entirely different situation - surely that's obvious?

As a guests in this country why do you imagine you have any right to ignore the current law or try to change it?

Someone - I think Axel - made a very good point in an earlier Post; when you join a Club or are employed by a Company you are accepted under their rules - not your own. To extend that simile, once you are accepted the best way to try to change anything in the organisation is to work your way - through contributing and perseverance - onto the Committee or into Mangement. A new "member" will get nowhere by petulently stamping his feet and crying "Those rules should not apply to ME anymore - change them .... NOW"!

[samran]

To all you people including the devil himself Patpong and Samran ,

hehe... my mum taught me well

So, that is a blow to all of you who think we should just do nothing.

yep, killer blow for my arguments. I humbly accept your superior debating skills, especially your ability to use factual information in your arguments.

Peitioning the Thai governemnt is not wrong because this is how a lot  people make their voices known in many countires including Hong KONG SAR.

You are obviously a cultural expert as well. After all, if the Thai's and Canotonese look pretty much the same, it wouldn't be stretch to think that their cultural norms should be pretty similar too.

If you do not have anything to say positive about this cause then please don't commit.

Cause??? One man band perhaps.

Many quiet (farang) achivers in Thailand who are doing great things for the country. The rules have been drawn up to reward their efforts.

[britainmal]

Well, Samran I do respect your words this time if your words meant well. I am not here to complain,but just to get people here to think more. If you think the current policies are okay , then I respect your opinions. Hong Kong people and Foreigners in Thailand are different situations, but I think Thailand has the most foreigners in Asia, so I think the government should change their laws. If Thailand adopted a more American style immigration policy I think It will be a richer country. I think Thailand should be more multi-cultural than it is now. This is my opinion. imagaine, giving citizenship to westerners easily would make them invest in the country and make Thailand the country with the most foreign direct investment unlike now which it is the least invested country in Asia. It would make Thailand richer and a multicultered society. If you leave the status quo , it will be the same. Experiements do not hurt.

[Dutchy]

If you leave the status quo , it will be the same. Experiements do not hurt.

Your last line clearly shows a lack of intelligence. You seem to base everything you say on your own 'knowledge' and the 'facts' you quote have no other source than this same 'knowledge' again. Every coin has two sides, I haven't seen you consider the other side yet...

Dutchy

[thaihome]

If Thailand adopted a more American style immigration policy

There is a very good chance you and lot of other people would not even get in the country. Remember, the US has strict quota for normal immigration and very strict Non-Immigration policies. Can you imagine having to prove you intend to return to your home country(within the time of your entry stamp) before being allowed into Thailand.

Your whole agrument is meaningless, because you assume it is as easy for a Thai (even one married to a westerner) to even get into a western country as it is for Westerner to get into Thailand. Getting into the country is required before you can even talk about PR or citizenship.

Oh, and your "facts" on foreigners in Thailand and Foreign Direct Investment are wrong.

TH

[samran]

If Thailand adopted a more American style immigration policy

And this is where your argument falls flat on its face.

To summarise my points:

Spousal visas

how a country runs it spousal visa system does not is not a true representation of immigration as a whole. It should not be used as a true indication of how open/closed a country is for foreigners to stay.

Thailand

Easy for foriegners to come and stay for just about as long as they want, but very hard to get residency unless they have integrated very well.

The system is not racist, as it creates "easier" routes for foriegn females to gain residency. It makes it hard for males, because half of the "quality" expats down Pattaya/Nana way would be eligable for Thai residency then.

Western Countries

Very hard to get into

Usually have to be extremely highly skilled to even get a work permit in the first place.

Not all countries run formal immigration nations, only the Australia, NZ and Canada and to a lesser extent, the UK have formal skills based migration systems.

For most of EU doesn't have a formal migration policy to welcome foriegners, the US system mainly attracts highly skilled workers via an extremely burecratic work permit process (The green card lottery is only as small element of the their system though).

Granted though once in, usually easy to get citizenship. But most don't get past that hurdle in the first place.

If Thailand adopted a more American style immigration policy I think It will be a richer country.

Of course, it would. Highly skilled migrants add value to a country via their intellectual and skills base keeping the economy competitive and filling skills shortages. They are required to speak the language of the country they to which they are moving.

Old perves married to their BG's in the main do not. Most countries wouldn't want to take them, why should Thailand???

If the old perv wants to try his luck with passing a Thai skills based points test, a la Australia, Canada and UK, then he is more than welcome to stay. If he had the skills, I'd be the first to hand him a residency permit.

Problem is, if you haven't noticed, is that the Thai government isn't particularly well resourced to run such a large scale migration programme. So the rules, as they stand, are a great second best solution.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Give up the economics, I see a decent future in politics for you. Thai politcs of course, and with a foot in each camp, you could push the interests of farang in the Kingdom. Not a lotta money ( unless you get a Ministry )

[samran]

Give up the economics, I see a decent future in politics for you. Thai politcs of course, and with a foot in each camp, you could push the interests of farang in the Kingdom. Not a lotta money ( unless you get a Ministry )

unfortunately, my dad isn't a Thai citizen which make me ineligable run for government in Thailand. That will change over time though...... then maybe!

[britainmal]

No, I am exactly right about foreign direct investment in Thailand Thaihome. I have sources from foreigners who work and deal with this field . If you watch the news it will confirm that. As far as tourism goes The USA is harder but for settlment Thailand is much harder. USA is a multicultred society unlike Thailand remeber this Thai home. That is why the USA is a country of immigrants unlike the Thailand Thaihome. I don't think you know your facts. Experiments are the key to learning a new concept. This goes with everything.

[4iner]

Thaihome

Trying to compare the immigration policies of the U.S. with Thailand is like comparing apples and mangoes. Two vastly different philosophies involved.

True a large number of people trying to immigrate to the U.S. are not allowed to. This is not because of a restrictive immigration policy but rather an extremely high number of applicants.

this link shows some immigration stats in the U.S. http://www.closeup.org/immigrat.htm#stats if Thailand accepted a fraction of what the U.S. does most decent law abiding farlangs would not have much dificulty in getting residency or even citizenship, if they so desired.

But back to my first point the immigration philosopies are like apples and mangoes in comparison.

[samran]

USA is a multicultred society unlike Thailand remeber this Thai home.

Yeah, forget about the ethnic malays, muslims, Thai vietnamese up Nakon Pathom way, the Thai Indians, and the ubiqitous Thai chinese and Loation Thai's, Khmers out east and various hill tribe people up North. Not to mention the numerous handsome/extremely sexy luuk krueng which dot the landscape.

Guess we all look the same I guess, making Thailand a definite monoculture.

[britainmal]

Yes, Thailand has some ethnic groups and they do have citizenship, samran. Did you forget this point. On Thai state Tv they reported a group of cambodian residents want Thai

citizenship like the vietnam student who just got citizenship because he was refused entrance to chularkon because he is not a Thai citizen. How racist that. No university in the west will deny foreigners because they don't have citizenship. Also, The USA has every nationality in the world excepted in its country unlike Thailand. THis is why it is a multicultre society unlike Thailand. Islam is not a race, but reglion samran. The Thai governemnt does not know anything about race discrimination this is why they have problems in the south. Samran you don't seem to know either. You seem stubborn like the Thai goverment. The ethnic cambodian and laoians have been in Thailand for centuries this is why they have citizenship, so the generation gap with these people is too far to consider them immigrants. As far as the half Thai half foreigner goes yes, the Thai government welcomes this as long as they have 50 percent of Thai blood. This has nothing to do with multicultred society. This shows Thai people want to

open up their immigation laws

but , the governemnt is against it.

In the West a lot of foreigners with no blood nationality have citizenship, this is what makes the west a multicultred society. The USA is going to take in Hmong tribe people from Laos who are in Thailand something Thailand does not want to except. Thailand does not want to allow the hilltribes in the north get into political office in Thailand. As you talk about hilltribes people they have been here before Thailand was Thailand and they have no rights. The Thai government must have really brain washed you samran . Another point with the sex trade, Actually Thailand had

a booming sex trade industry even before foreigners came here. All the time

Thais go with prositiuteses even the government ministers have mistress on the side. So, don't say foreigner males can't get citizenship easy because they go to nana and cowboy. Many Thai go picking up Prositiutes not just foreigners. So, if a males goes to nana and cowboy for sex he should not

be denied citizenship for that reason. Wake up samran! You are talking backwards.

[britainmal]

Another point you said all western countries have only highly skilled migrants only. You are wrong, Western countries are mutliculttred they have every nationality not just highly skilled workers. The West have

poor and rich migrants. If you think their

are no poor migrant workers in the west you are mistaken. As far as the syytem goes they

except a lot of low skilled or no skilled migrnat workers in the west unlike Thailand which make it dificult for even super rich westerns to get ciitzenship. Let's quote a statement by the minster for labour she said, "The ministry want to make it hard for foreigners to enter country for settllement because

they only want foreigners that will benefit the Thai people." So, they don't even care about the westerns. They only want foreigners to benefit Thai people only. This is totally racist. So, Samran don't try to bring up that western

countries are very hard and they have no system for migrants. If that was the case samran Western countries would not be considered mutlicultred societies then. Wake up samran and stop taking backwards.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Entrance into Thai State owned universities is based on citizenship and ability, as it is in most countries. The opportunity to enter is available to foreign students on a pay to enter basis. Similar to the systems that exist in the enlightened western countries. Just for the record, it is called Chulalongkorn University, and it is considered the most prestigious uni' in Thailand.

For ole Mal ... the devil incarnate signs off.

[Pink Mist]

Entrance into Thai State owned universities is based on citizenship, as it is in most countries. The opportunity to enter is available to foregn students on a pay for yourself basis. Similar to the systems that exist in the enlightened western countries. Just for the record, it is called Chulalongkorn University, and it is considered the most prestigious uni' in Thailand

For ole Mal  ... the devil incarnate signs off.

The universities and high schools love those full fee paying overseas students in Oz anyway.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Thai students pay multi billions of dollars for foreign education, and their fees are more than double those applicable to their own domestic students. Is this racist in these circumstances Bronc ?

[Pink Mist]

Thai students pay multi billions of dollars for foreign education, and their fees are more than double those applicable to their own domestic students. Is this racist in these circumstances Bronc ?

As neither citizens or pr why should they have access to a government subsidised education. They come here (from rich families I would imagine) knowing full well the situation and expenses involved.

I dont see anything racist in that.

[britainmal]

No, Patpong All western universities do not use nationality as an issue because it would be against the law in western countries. They go by your grades patpong. Yes, Thai have to pay more to study oversees but that rule does not only apply to thais. Foreigners too have to pay a lot of money to study oversees. I know

chula is a top univeristy in Thailand, but they discriminate against nationality unlike western univerities. If a Thai person gets a scholarship to study oversees like they have abundant chances, then they Don't

have to pay hign fees. Can a foreign person get a scholarship to study in a Thai university I think not and they have to pay a triple rate if they can study at a Thai university. Say correct information patpong. Most Thai students

that study abroad are rich anyway, so what is racist about that. They are not PR nor citizens so, why should a Thai or any person get access to goverment funds.

[thaihome]

No, I am exactly right about foreign direct investment in Thailand Thaihome.  I have sources from foreigners who work and deal with this field .  If you watch the news it will confirm that.  As far as tourism goes The USA is harder but for settlment Thailand is much harder.  USA is a multicultred society unlike Thailand remeber this Thai home.  That is why the USA is a country of immigrants unlike the Thailand Thaihome.  I don't think you know your facts.  Experiments are the key to learning a new concept. This goes with everything.

Thailand is no where near the bottom of Foreign Direct Investment. Those places are held by the likes of Cambodia, Myanmar, Vietnam, Laos, etc. Though Thailand is below Hong Kong, Singapore, it is only slightly below Malaysia. Of course all countries are dwarfed by the investment going on China. Thailand has been hit particularly hard with this shift to China, because a lot of the investment in Thailand has historically been in Petrochemical and manufacturing industries which are the biggest growth industries in China right now.

The number in China also dwarfs the number of foreigners in Thailand. China as some 70/90 million foreigners enter the country in a year. Thailand is lucky to 10 million.

Just one point on the US being a country of immigrants (as is Australia), that is mainly because the indigenous population was pretty well wiped out a couple of hundred years ago, so any comparison to Thailand is nonsensical.

TH

[p_brownstone]

No, Patpong All western universities do not use nationality as an issue because it would be against the law in western countries. They go by your grades patpong. Yes, Thai have to pay more to study oversees but that rule does not only apply to thais. Foreigners too have to pay a lot of money to study oversees. I know

chula is a top univeristy in Thailand, but they discriminate against nationality unlike western univerities. If a Thai person gets a scholarship to study oversees like they have abundant chances, then they Don't

have to pay hign fees. Can a foreign person get a scholarship to study in a Thai university I think not and they have to pay a triple rate if they can study at a Thai university. Say correct information patpong. Most Thai students

that study abroad are rich anyway, so what is racist about that. They are not PR nor citizens so, why should a Thai or any person get access to goverment funds.

I am a British citizen and have lived in Thailand for over 30 years.

My daughter holds dual British / Thai nationality.

She currently studies at the London School of Economics in London.

If I was UK Resident, provided my Daughter had the required Grades from High School she would study at LSE free of charges for Tuition.

As it is I have to pay well over GBP 10.000 per year for fees - and of course my daughter still had to get into the University on merit.

[samran]

No, Patpong  All western universities do not use nationality as an issue because it would be against the law in western countries. They go by your grades patpong.  Yes, Thai have to pay more to study oversees but that rule does not only apply to thais.  Foreigners too have to pay a lot of money to study oversees.  I know

chula is a top univeristy in Thailand, but they discriminate against nationality unlike western univerities.  If a Thai person gets a scholarship to study oversees like they have abundant chances, then they Don't

have to pay hign fees.  Can a foreign person get a scholarship to study in a Thai university I think not and they have to pay a triple rate if they can study at a Thai university.  Say correct information patpong.  Most Thai students

that study abroad are rich anyway, so what is racist about that. They are not PR nor citizens so, why should a Thai or any person get access to goverment funds.

Here's me thinking again: Dog chasing tail.

Classic stuff this. I've seen better stuctured arguments from a 3 year old.

Can a foreign person get a scholarship to study in a Thai university

Dunno to be honest. But if they did hand them out, I'd be the first person to give you one, you are in obvious need of some formal education. A 4th grade education just doesn't get you far these days.

The Thai government must have really brain washed you samran

Classic.... you think that cause I have my own well formed opinions that I am actually a stupid little brainwashed minion of this government who thinks Thaksin is the best thing since sliced bread? Is what you think of all Thai people who express an opinion that doesn't agree with the trailerpark trash view of the world?

No, my parents just taught me never to suffer fools gladly. Time to take your medicine before you explode of frustration Britain (or should I say USA) mal.

Devil incarnate no.2 signing off.

[quiggs]

<<Just one point on the US being a country of immigrants (as is Australia), that is mainly because the indigenous population was pretty well wiped out a couple of hundred years ago, so any comparison to Thailand is nonsensical.>>

It is true that is was certainly wiped out. It was also "indiginous" for a much shorter period of time, by millions of years, and the population of North America, excluding Mexico was probably never more than 2 million. The indiginous populations has nothing to do with population immigration laws. If it does, it should not.

Most countries in europe, weather they admit it or not, are a mix and match of many cultures, Thailand is a mix as well. I believe this is all political. As is the push to keep new immigrants out of the US. This. nationalistic tendency has less and less place in a modern world

[Khun Larry]

LivinLOS -

Very simple - the rules are laid out clearly, as I stated.  You do not have to work - you just have to invest two million baht in a company, hire four Thais, and occupy a paid directorship position.  If you hire wisely, you do not have to "work."

I suggest that is the last thing most Farangs are injterrested in. Hardly sounds like not working. Investing is one thing, managing 4 Thai's sounds like work.

What is the return on the 2MM Baht? ie without working

Would be very interrested to know.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

No, Patpong  All western universities do not use nationality as an issue because it would be against the law in western countries. They go by your grades patpong.  Yes, Thai have to pay more to study oversees but that rule does not only apply to thais.  Foreigners too have to pay a lot of money to study oversees.  I know

chula is a top univeristy in Thailand, but they discriminate against nationality unlike western univerities.  If a Thai person gets a scholarship to study oversees like they have abundant chances, then they Don't

have to pay hign fees.  Can a foreign person get a scholarship to study in a Thai university I think not and they have to pay a triple rate if they can study at a Thai university.  Say correct information patpong.  Most Thai students

that study abroad are rich anyway, so what is racist about that. They are not PR nor citizens so, why should a Thai or any person get access to goverment funds.

Here's me thinking again: Dog chasing tail.

Classic stuff this. I've seen better stuctured arguments from a 3 year old.

Can a foreign person get a scholarship to study in a Thai university

Dunno to be honest. But if they did hand them out, I'd be the first person to give you one, you are in obvious need of some formal education. A 4th grade education just doesn't get you far these days.

The Thai government must have really brain washed you samran

Classic.... you think that cause I have my own well formed opinions that I am actually a stupid little brainwashed minion of this government who thinks Thaksin is the best thing since sliced bread? Is what you think of all Thai people who express an opinion that doesn't agree with the trailerpark trash view of the world?

No, my parents just taught me never to suffer fools gladly. Time to take your medicine before you explode of frustration Britain (or should I say USA) mal.

Devil incarnate no.2 signing off.

We gotta be extra careful here Samran. We run a risk of getting rolled by the intellectuals. That's the people who persist in staying on in Muang Thai despite seemingly hating the place and its people.

[p_brownstone]

We gotta be extra careful here Samran. We run a risk of getting rolled by the intellectuals. That's the people who persist in staying on in Muang Thai despite seemingly hating the place and its people.

It's exactly this masochistic tendency which I find so surprising.

Quite seriously. There are obviously many on here who so hate aspects of living in Thailand that they regularly log on to just to vent their spleen and frustration, which really makes no sense to me at all.

If someone really cannot accept certain proscriptions on their much valued Western ideals or whatever, surely it is better for their health and sanity to go somewhere else; to live every day with this resentent eating away at one must be terrible.

[thaigene2]

I am a British citizen and have lived in Thailand for over 30 years.

My daughter holds dual British / Thai nationality.

She currently studies at the London School of Economics in London.

If I was UK Resident, provided my Daughter had the required Grades from High School she would study at LSE free of charges for Tuition.

As it is I have to pay well over GBP 10.000 per year for fees - and of course my daughter still had to get into the University on merit.

Hmm. Yes, well I too am a British Citizen, live in Thailand, am studying at a British Uni (by Distance Learning), and have to pay the foreign student rate! Apparently if I lived in the EU I would get a cut rate. It was residency that counted in may case, not nationality..of course then again I'm no longer paying UK taxes so maybe that's fair enough.

[samran]

We gotta be extra careful here Samran. We run a risk of getting rolled by the intellectuals. That's the people who persist in staying on in Muang Thai despite seemingly hating the place and its people.

You say correct information Patpong.

The Clinton Plaza debating society has us devils on the run!!!

[Axel]

The Clinton Plaza debating society has us devils on the run!!!

The Clinton Plaza is now defunct. The White House is closed and the whole area is construction place. (Sorry, only in Bangkok, unfortunately not in real)

I am following this thing since the beginning, but as a good guy I accepted the request

If you don't have anything positive to say about this cause then don't reply please.

Very off the records, I did discuss the original idea with some friends (You know, the guys walking in shorts and flip flops, but having at home a picture showing them in white uniform with all kinds of orders on their chest, usually together with a higher being like a present or former PM or higher).

Afraid to say, the response was not too positive. Whereas it was agreed, that myself with a 2 million company would not contribute too much by foreign investment, it is generally agreed that any individual opening a company under the BOI-rules does contribute to the Thai economy, especially if the investment is Baht 10 million, or better around 100 m and up.

Wether or not foreigners are a threat to Thai blood, if we become citizens I would like to leave open, but tongue in cheek, once you are a citizen, you are no longer or foreigner, or are you?

So, sorry, I cannot really help and shut down again.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

We gotta be extra careful here Samran. We run a risk of getting rolled by the intellectuals. That's the people who persist in staying on in Muang Thai despite seemingly hating the place and its people.

You say correct information Patpong.

The Clinton Plaza debating society has us devils on the run!!!

The Plaza has gone, but the Clinton Plaza Mass Debating Society lives on forever.

[Pink Mist]

We gotta be extra careful here Samran. We run a risk of getting rolled by the intellectuals. That's the people who persist in staying on in Muang Thai despite seemingly hating the place and its people.

You say correct information Patpong.

The Clinton Plaza debating society has us devils on the run!!!

The Plaza has gone, but the Clinton Plaza Mass Debating Society lives on forever.

you need a spell checker Doc