3 hours ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

I think that is nonsense and I have been here longer than you (31 years now).

 

Vietnam managed to get EVERYONE wearing helmets in a matter of weeks back in 2001 IIRC.

 

Thailand has not managed even that in Bangkok. I see loads of people without helmets on a regular basis and I live very central. 

 

In the village upcountry it is still extremely rare to see Thais wearing helmets unless going long distances and even then...

 

Nothing has changed at all certainly in the last 15 years in Bangkok. 

I don't know about Vietnam but where I live in the N.E. I have had this thrust in my face several times when talking about various practices, including m/b helmets; 'We are Thai and we are free to what we want, our language tells us that.' IMHO the adjective, ไทย = free, liberated etc. has literally sunk in so deep it has become part of their nature.

The local market place is awash with m/b riders with no helmets, riding in the wrong direction and in the evening it's chaos. Only the other evening I saw a woman peddling on a bicycle (no rear red light and it was darkish) who was forced towards and fell into a vegetable stall by a m/b going the wrong way. The m/b carried 3 individuals, no helmets. Once in a while a policemen is on duty there but all he does it help with congested traffic while 'all as usual' carries on around him.

3 hours ago, Bredbury Blue said:

"interesting phenomenon traveling from the airport to my hotel. I saw perhaps more than a thousand motorcycle riders and passengers, and only one person was not wearing a helmet..."

Its correct that virtually all wear helmets in Vietnam.

Other interesting phenomena  the writer didn't pick up is:

It's  highly unlikely to see fullface hemets being used there.

Not so many females side-riding like here - women tend to wear a 'wraparound skirt' to hide their legs.

Most accidents tend to be bike on bike crashes.

The further you go from HCMC the less cars on the road.

Speed limits in Vietnam are lower in municipal  areas than here and people  drive within those speed limits.

There are a combination of socio-economic and design factors at play affecting the culture of riding in both countries. In essence, the lesson of Vietnam on this issue highlights that it is primarily a cultural shift that needs to take place. The application of the law needs to find the right motivation point.

 

People don't speed as much in urban areas in Vietnam as they do here. Partially, that is road design and the sheer number of motorbikes but it is also that riders are more careful to avoid collisions, they ride more defensively, due to the expense of accidents. (I often say to friends that in HCMC or Hanoi I could cross the road at a pedestrian crossing with my eyes close as long as I walked a constant pace as nearly all road users drive/ride is a more defensive manner. That would be a death wish in Thailand - even with your eyes open!) Country roads wise Thailand has a much better and larger multi-lane highway network (with many poor design points) which encourages faster driving and often reckless. In Vietnam, the network is much more limited and main hwys congested so you generally have much lower speeds. Vietnam also has a much lower % of vehicles on the road and much lower km/per vehicle than Thailand but they do have a huge growth in car sales as people switch from the motorbike to the car - much as they switched from bicycles to motorbikes 20 years ago.

 

I've ridden extensively in both countries and one is definitely more conducive to stress and near misses than the other.

 

Actually, I was in Danang in mid Dec 2007 when the new helmet law came into effect on 15 Dec. It was amazing to see the compliance literally overnight. On 14 Dec I would it seemed to me that around 30% of motorbike riders had helmets. On 15 Dec, that number jumped to 80%. A few days later it was literally 90% and thereafter 'spot the person NOT wearing a helmet'. It was also made compulsory for the pillion pax and most importantly children (though there was lots of debate about that with some people suggesting a child wearing a helmet would end up with neck problems)

 

Apart from issuing a fine the real key to the change in the helmet laws in Vietnam lay in the fact that the motorbike rider had the motorbike impounded for a minimum of 72 hours. Thus, even if you immediately paid the fine you could not use your motorbike for a period of a few days. This provides a compelling incentive for most bike users as the loss of their motorbike meant consequential loss of independent mobility for work, family travel and socializing. Especially, important in places with few public transport options.

 

 

5 hours ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

You can't change Thai culture I'm afraid. The laziness, the resultant ignorance, self-entitlement and a complete lack of responsibility are not going to ever be changed here. 

 

This article could have been regurgitated from 2002-3 when it was relevant after the Vietnamese cracked down on helmets.

 

Exactly the same was in many of the mainstream media publications then and has been often observed since. 

Absolutely disgraceful post.

You have insulted my wife and all her family and friends who are none of the things you claim all thai people to be.

Easy to be brave behind a keyboard I suppose.

10 minutes ago, Lakegeneve said:

There are a combination of socio-economic and design factors at play affecting the culture of riding in both countries. In essence, the lesson of Vietnam on this issue highlights that it is primarily a cultural shift that needs to take place. The application of the law needs to find the right motivation point.

 

People don't speed as much in urban areas in Vietnam as they do here. Partially, that is road design and the sheer number of motorbikes but it is also that riders are more careful to avoid collisions, they ride more defensively, due to the expense of accidents. (I often say to friends that in HCMC or Hanoi I could cross the road at a pedestrian crossing with my eyes close as long as I walked a constant pace as nearly all road users drive/ride is a more defensive manner. That would be a death wish in Thailand - even with your eyes open!) Country roads wise Thailand has a much better and larger multi-lane highway network (with many poor design points) which encourages faster driving and often reckless. In Vietnam, the network is much more limited and main hwys congested so you generally have much lower speeds. Vietnam also has a much lower % of vehicles on the road and much lower km/per vehicle than Thailand but they do have a huge growth in car sales as people switch from the motorbike to the car - much as they switched from bicycles to motorbikes 20 years ago.

 

I've ridden extensively in both countries and one is definitely more conducive to stress and near misses than the other.

 

Actually, I was in Danang in mid Dec 2007 when the new helmet law came into effect on 15 Dec. It was amazing to see the compliance literally overnight. On 14 Dec I would it seemed to me that around 30% of motorbike riders had helmets. On 15 Dec, that number jumped to 80%. A few days later it was literally 90% and thereafter 'spot the person NOT wearing a helmet'. It was also made compulsory for the pillion pax and most importantly children (though there was lots of debate about that with some people suggesting a child wearing a helmet would end up with neck problems)

 

Apart from issuing a fine the real key to the change in the helmet laws in Vietnam lay in the fact that the motorbike rider had the motorbike impounded for a minimum of 72 hours. Thus, even if you immediately paid the fine you could not use your motorbike for a period of a few days. This provides a compelling incentive for most bike users as the loss of their motorbike meant consequential loss of independent mobility for work, family travel and socializing. Especially, important in places with few public transport options.

 

 

Thank a rational mature post 

From a previous post:

 

'We're Thai and we're free to do whatever we like'

 

The light shines in the Darkness. One of those 'Paul on the road to Damascus' moments. A lot of things just became even more clear. How could so many things flow directly from a delusion? Free?  Wow.

15 minutes ago, Expatthailover said:

5 hours ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

You can't change Thai culture I'm afraid. The laziness, the resultant ignorance, self-entitlement and a complete lack of responsibility are not going to ever be changed here. 

 

This article could have been regurgitated from 2002-3 when it was relevant after the Vietnamese cracked down on helmets.

 

Exactly the same was in many of the mainstream media publications then and has been often observed since. 

Absolutely disgraceful post.

You have insulted my wife and all her family and friends who are none of the things you claim all thai people to be.

Easy to be brave behind a keyboard I suppose.

 

Insulted you both may be, though I doubt that was the intention.

 

He's right - however insulted you choose to be. Thais are everything he alleges. In my opinion.

Edited June 25, 20188 yr by KiwiKiwi

Fully rather change the road culture and driving habbits with a honest and efficient police force...

Maybe this is a sick form of mandatory capital punishment? Can't help bring up the flavour of the week.

 

The biggest problem with the punishment is that it does not take in the economy of scales between Bangkok and the poorer country areas. Maybe give the areas zones and if caught 2-3 times loose the bike. An education campaign would help; what happens when your kid cry's because u aren't wearing a helmet?

Had a chat with a policeman quite a while ago and suggested they double the fine for not wearing a helmet his answer was thais cant afford that i said simple wear a helmet and it doesn't matter how much the fine is he kept saying thais cant afford it.

2 minutes ago, grego49 said:

Had a chat with a policeman quite a while ago and suggested they double the fine for not wearing a helmet his answer was thais cant afford that i said simple wear a helmet and it doesn't matter how much the fine is he kept saying thais cant afford it.

 

How many milliseconds do you think he remembered that conversation for?

 

Saw a policeman take a girl.in school uniform whom I presume was his daughter on the front of his motorbike.  No helmet for the young girl.  I was going to say something to him but my brain kicked in. 

"interesting phenomenon traveling from the airport to my hotel. I saw perhaps more than a thousand motorcycle riders and passengers, and only one person was not wearing a helmet..."
 
Its correct that virtually all wear helmets in Vietnam.
 
Other interesting phenomena  the writer didn't pick up is:
It's  highly unlikely to see fullface hemets being used there.
Not so many females side-riding like here - women tend to wear a 'wraparound skirt' to hide their legs.
Most accidents tend to be bike on bike crashes.
The further you go from HCMC the less cars on the road.
Speed limits in Vietnam are lower in municipal  areas than here and people  drive within those speed limits.

Very civilised riding culture there. It seems to be chaotic when you see it the first time or ride within the mass.
But I found riding in Hanoi and Saigon much more relaxed than in Bangkok.

There are a combination of socio-economic and design factors at play affecting the culture of riding in both countries. In essence, the lesson of Vietnam on this issue highlights that it is primarily a cultural shift that needs to take place. The application of the law needs to find the right motivation point.
 
People don't speed as much in urban areas in Vietnam as they do here. Partially, that is road design and the sheer number of motorbikes but it is also that riders are more careful to avoid collisions, they ride more defensively, due to the expense of accidents. (I often say to friends that in HCMC or Hanoi I could cross the road at a pedestrian crossing with my eyes close as long as I walked a constant pace as nearly all road users drive/ride is a more defensive manner. That would be a death wish in Thailand - even with your eyes open!) Country roads wise Thailand has a much better and larger multi-lane highway network (with many poor design points) which encourages faster driving and often reckless. In Vietnam, the network is much more limited and main hwys congested so you generally have much lower speeds. Vietnam also has a much lower % of vehicles on the road and much lower km/per vehicle than Thailand but they do have a huge growth in car sales as people switch from the motorbike to the car - much as they switched from bicycles to motorbikes 20 years ago.
 
I've ridden extensively in both countries and one is definitely more conducive to stress and near misses than the other.
 
Actually, I was in Danang in mid Dec 2007 when the new helmet law came into effect on 15 Dec. It was amazing to see the compliance literally overnight. On 14 Dec I would it seemed to me that around 30% of motorbike riders had helmets. On 15 Dec, that number jumped to 80%. A few days later it was literally 90% and thereafter 'spot the person NOT wearing a helmet'. It was also made compulsory for the pillion pax and most importantly children (though there was lots of debate about that with some people suggesting a child wearing a helmet would end up with neck problems)
 
Apart from issuing a fine the real key to the change in the helmet laws in Vietnam lay in the fact that the motorbike rider had the motorbike impounded for a minimum of 72 hours. Thus, even if you immediately paid the fine you could not use your motorbike for a period of a few days. This provides a compelling incentive for most bike users as the loss of their motorbike meant consequential loss of independent mobility for work, family travel and socializing. Especially, important in places with few public transport options.
 
 

Great comment!
Translate it to Thai and see what happens!

59 minutes ago, stud858 said:

Saw a policeman take a girl.in school uniform whom I presume was his daughter on the front of his motorbike.  No helmet for the young girl.  I was going to say something to him but my brain kicked in. 

 

Yep, discretion the better part of valour. The problem is that whatever they do, it's the right thing.

 

Thais don't make mistakes so you can't really expect them to own up to any.

Edited June 25, 20188 yr by KiwiKiwi

It is easier to get the Thais to try change their skin color, than it is to convince some

of them to wear a helmet. Sad but true.

Geezer

11 hours ago, Lakegeneve said:

People don't speed as much in urban areas in Vietnam as they do here. Partially, that is road design and the sheer number of motorbikes but it is also that riders are more careful to avoid collisions, they ride more defensively, due to the expense of accidents. (I often say to friends that in HCMC or Hanoi I could cross the road at a pedestrian crossing with my eyes close as long as I walked a constant pace as nearly all road users drive/ride is a more defensive manner. That would be a death wish in Thailand - even with your eyes open!)

1

That's the same way as in China, traffic appears chaotic and disorganised and highly dangerous yet for pedestrians it can be quite safe as long as everything you do is measured and predictable to everyone else.

“In most of us, by the age of thirty, the character has set like plaster, and will never soften again.”

 

That quote was made famous by Harvard psychologist William James in his 1890 book The Principles of Psychology, and is believed to be the first time modern psychology introduced the idea that one’s personality becomes fixed after a certain age.

 

More than a century since James’s influential text, we know that, unfortunately, our brains start to solidify by the age of 25, but that, fortunately, change is still possible after. The key is continuously creating new pathways and connections to break apart stuck neural patterns in the brain.

 

Simply put, when the brain is young and not yet fully formed, there’s a lot of flexibility and plasticity, which explains why kids learn so quickly, says Deborah Ancona, a professor of management and organizational studies at MIT.

 

With the above in mind, changing the Kingdom’s mind set is never going to be easy and should be approached via two separate routes.

The most efficient route is to start with educating the young. Charities in Thailand have tried, but their plans I feel fall short as they are traditionally based on a limited life span;  budgets are set aside and once spent the charity moves on. Plus they do not include, augmenting all those that are affected by road accidents. Schools should be made to do more e.g. take to heart their duty of care for their students, not allowing children or parents to enter or leave a school without wearing a crash helmet.

The second and hardest route is to change the mind of the older generation, a possible answer is to use the approach taken by the UK charity ‘Road Peace’, when it brought in 20 mile an hour speed restrictions outside schools.

They simply put an emotional and equally important financial cost to a road accident or fatality, with the intent that the shear huge costs involved, will make those in power sit up and notice. (The overall monetary cost of a fatality is estimated to be as much as 1 million GBP, based on both direct and indirect costs).

Following either route, must involve all manner of people who are caught up in an accident, who in turn can then relay their own experiences regarding the consequences of not wearing a crash helmet.

They include but are not limited to; families and friends of the injured or dead, school personal, employers and employees, the  emergency services; ambulance, fire and police. Hospital staff and their facilities, coroners, council workers who have to clean the roads or and re-install street furniture, (lights, lamp posts railing etc.) and lastly insurers and policy holders.

 

                                 “The use of a ‘Carrot or Stick’ works across all age groups”

17 hours ago, madmitch said:

Don't forget that as from next year, anyone caught riding without a helmet will have one penalty point imposed. Twelve times and they lose their licence for three months. 

 

Now there's a deterrent!????

 

Mostly the police wont add the debit point.

 

Not around here anyway;

 

'We're Thai, we're free to do whatever we want'. This little gem of wishful thinking will be the undoing of them.

After the new sheriff came to town the Thai did wear more helmets, but only for 1 week or so.

 

When the police makes a roadblock to stop a group of motocydrivers many of them will just stop on the spot, turn around and drive back the same way they came from...Even groups of 50 might do so, i 've seen it myself.

 

Drivers without helmets can only hurt themselves (and their families) but the ones who drive against traffic can cause huge accidents, my Thai friend almost was dead when he drove into one with his big bike.

 

So my priority would be to stop the driving against traffic first. Anybody can see that and will think there's no law in BKK/Thailand.