Chiang Rai cave: Rescuers search for ceiling shaft

[webfact]

Rescuers search for ceiling shaft

By Chularat Saengpassa 
The Nation

 

 

Drilling through rock to reach group missing in cave would take too much time and could ‘cause collapse’

 

THE SEARCH FOR access into the Tham Luang Cave through shafts or cracks from the mountain above has been intensifying as rescue efforts via the cave’s only known entrance have met with tremendous obstacles.

 

Chiang Rai Governor Narongsak Osottanakorn said yesterday 24 teams of officials and volunteers are now scouring the area in the hope of finding a shaft that will lead to the 12 teenage footballers and their coach, who were last seen on Saturday. 

 

Relying on geographical analysis, the Mineral Resources Department has so far identified three shafts.

 

 

Two have already been checked and ruled out but there is still a possibility that the third will lead to the victims. 

 

“We hope this shaft will lead down to the cave and further to its Pattaya Beach, where the victims may have been stranded,” Suwit Kosuwan, who heads the Environment Geology Bureau’s Active Fault Research Unit, said yesterday.

 

 

Suwit spoke as rescue teams, including Royal Thai Navy’s SEALs, had already spent three days searching inside the cave. 

 

Parts of the cave are flooded to a depth of seven metres, hampering the search through thin air and mud.

 

“Available data suggests that it will be easier for officials to walk around the cave if they start from the latter part of the cave,” Suwit said. 

 

 

Asked about the possibility of drilling down from above the cave, Suwit said the ceiling of the cave in that area was believed to be about 100 metres thick. 

 

“Given modern technology, drilling is possible. But it will take too much time to reach the victims,” he said. 

 

Asst Prof Dr Suttisak Soralump, an engineering lecturer at the Kasetsart University, said that it was possible to drill a small hole, about 100 metres deep, in half a day. The hole would be about six or eight inches wide. 

 

“If that hole connects to the cave, sunlight will shine through and the stranded victims will be able to know help is coming. We will also be able to send food down and plan further steps,” Suttisak said.

 

He said that any drilling must be planned carefully to prevent any collapse inside the cave. 

 

Narongsak said finding a passable shaft and reducing floodwater inside the cave appeared now to be the major means to help the victims. 

 

Located in Chiang Rai province, Tham Luang Cave is usually off-limits to visitors during the rainy |season. However, locals say that flooding usually hits the area |from next month onward. 

 

When the young footballers and their coach went into the cave on Saturday, the area was still dry, but a flash flood hit soon after. 

 

 

While all-out efforts to reach the victims has continued since Saturday, rain has also continued to push more water into the cave. 

 

Pol Lt General Kraiboon Suadsong, who is on a deputy prime minister’s team at the cave site, said late yesterday afternoon that five more big pumps were installed inside the cave for water drainage. 

 

“They should help a lot. Water will be driven out via three-kilometre-long tubes,” he said. 

 

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30348774

 

-- © Copyright The Nation 2018-06-28

[webfact]

Rescuers seek to drill hole in hunt for boys missing in Thai cave

By Chayut Setboonsarng

 

Soldiers alight from a vehicle as they work near the Tham Luang cave complex during a search for members of an under-16 soccer team and their coach, in the northern province of Chiang Rai,Thailand, June 27, 2018. REUTERS/Soe Zeya Tun

 

CHIANG RAI, Thailand (Reuters) - Thai rescue workers will drill a narrow shaft into a cave where 12 schoolboys and their soccer coach are believed to be trapped by flood waters, Thailand's interior minister said on Wednesday, the fourth day of a search that has been hampered by heavy rain.

 

The boys, aged between 11 and 16, and their 25-year-old assistant coach, went missing on Saturday after soccer practice when they set out to explore the Tham Luang cave complex, even though it is known to be prone to flooding in the rainy season.

 

Thai volunteers and military teams, including 45 navy SEAL unit members, have been deployed at the flooded cave complex, which runs 10 km (6 miles) under a mountain in the northern province of Chiang Rai.

 

"Tomorrow we can drill into the mountain but we won't drill too deep. Just enough to allow people through," interior minister Anupong Paochinda told reporters in Bangkok.

 

"We are trying every way to find the children," he added.

 

While distraught relatives and friends gathered at the mouth of the cave, rescue workers pumped water out, but the persistent heavy rain has slowed their progress.

 

"Water is the biggest challenge. There is a lot of debris and sand that gets stuck while pumping," Army officer Sergeant Kresada Wanaphum told Reuters.

 

"We have to switch out units because there is not enough air in there," he added, before heading back down the cave.

 

According to messages the boys exchanged before setting off, they had taken flashlights and some food.

 

Apart from some footprints and marks left by their muddy hands near the cave entrance, nothing has been seen or heard of them since Saturday evening, and the race to find them has dominated Thai news cycles.

 

"I'm confident all are still alive," Prime Minister Prayuth Chan-ocha told reporters.

 

'MASSIVE AMOUNTS' OF WATER

Vern Unsworth, a British cave explorer based in Chiang Rai who has joined the search, said a lot of water was seeping into the cave from two directions.

 

"There is a watershed inside, which is unusual, it means there is water coming in from two directions," Unsworth told Reuters.

 

"The biggest challenge is the water. Massive amounts."

 

Three foreign divers coming from Britain were expected to reach Thailand on Wednesday evening to join the search, the interior minister said.

 

Thailand has asked the United States for survivor detection equipment, said Tourism Minister Weerasak Kowsurat.

 

"We hope this equipment will allow us to locate the spots that we need to reach faster," Weerasak told reporters.

A guide book described the Tham Luang cave as having an "impressive entrance chamber" leading to a marked path. It then describes the end of the path and the start of a series of chambers and boulders.

 

"This section of the cave has not been thoroughly explored. After a couple of hundred metres the cave reduces in size to a mud floored passage 2 metres wide and 3 metres high," author Martin Ellis wrote in 'The Caves of Thailand Volume 2'.

 

Nopparat Kantawong, the head coach of the team who did not attend practice on Saturday, said the boys had visited the caves several times, and was hopeful that the boys would stick together and stay strong.

 

"They won't abandon each other," Nopparat told reporters.

 

(Additional reporting by Amy Sawitta Lefevre, Aukkarapon Niyomyat, Panarat Thepgumpanat, Patpicha Tanakasempipat and Pracha Hariraksapitak; Writing by Amy Sawitta Lefevre; Editing by Michael Perry & Simon Cameron-Moore)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-06-28

[NextStationBangkok]

Any chance smaller sized rescue dogs with swimming skills can help to find the people trapped inside ?

 

People rely on too much technology, sometimes genuine friends like dogs outsmart experts.

 

Thailand should look for Swiss expertise team's help. They are expertise in trapped people during earth quacks.

[Docno]

4 minutes ago, NextStationBangkok said:

Any chance smaller sized rescue dogs with swimming skills can help to find the people trapped inside ?

 

People rely on too much technology, sometimes genuine friends like dogs outsmart experts.

 

Thailand should look for Swiss expertise team's help. They are expertise in trapped people during earth quacks.

The use of divers, etc., suggests that there is a need to swim under water which (I believe) rules out rescue dogs... 

[NextStationBangkok]

7 minutes ago, Docno said:

The use of divers, etc., suggests that there is a need to swim under water which (I believe) rules out rescue dogs... 

 

I feel experts missed something like this.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-30431322

[Horace]

They need skilled rescue divers, and the article lists a "shortage of rescue divers" as a problem.  How many skilled rescue divers does Thailand have?  Maybe the authorities should have asked for assistance from foreign countries - that have expertise and skilled rescue divers - at the very beginning of this tragedy?

[Stargeezr]

For, the idea that dogs can help?? They need to breath air so how much more can they

help, as compared with divers with multiple air tanks?  Just wondering?

[Denim]

3 minutes ago, Horace said:

They need skilled rescue divers, and the article lists a "shortage of rescue divers" as a problem.  How many skilled rescue divers does Thailand have?  Maybe the authorities should have asked for assistance from foreign countries - that have expertise and skilled rescue divers - at the very beginning of this tragedy?

Unfortunately, it is not just a question of diving skills that is needed. Caving experience is also needed. If the water in the cave were crystal clear it would be a lot easier but this is very muddy water so visability must be next to nothing.

How can divers unfamiliar with the cave know all its twists and turns.

 

I'm sure everybody is hoping for a happy outcome but obviously, time is a deciding factor.

[Horace]

2 minutes ago, Denim said:

Unfortunately, it is not just a question of diving skills that is needed. Caving experience is also needed. If the water in the cave were crystal clear it would be a lot easier but this is very muddy water so visability must be next to nothing.

How can divers unfamiliar with the cave know all its twists and turns.

 

I'm sure everybody is hoping for a happy outcome but obviously, time is a deciding factor.

Fair enough.  How many skilled cave divers do you think Thailand has?  

[Ninni]

LIVE PLEASE!!!!!?

[NotThatGuy]

Having done regular caving i can tell you it’s not easy. Imagine pitch black darkness, and being surrounded by sharp pointy rocks on all sides. It’s slippery, the air is thin and it’s hard to get a sense of direction. Now add fast moving muddy water to that... so no, this isn’t easy even for expert divers or trained rescue team. 

[timber]

Air is possibly a concern.  It will take 1/2 day to drill.  Mobilization how long?  Area looks rugged and steep.  There is fear of collapse from drilling.  Sounds like they need sonic type of expiration to check for fractures, and profile of the cave to minimize impact from drill.  Access for equipment seems to be the main problem.  Air seems to be more of a concern than seems to be given attention here.  Mucky waters major problems, but is often a problem in diving.  Must be procedures to take care of the problem in the cave.  Maybe things that are needed to be done are being delayed because it is top heavy from brass that wants to be involved..  There are people that are experts as this type of thing and they know what needs to be done.  

[Gold Star]

33 minutes ago, NextStationBangkok said:

 

I feel experts missed something like this.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-30431322

This is a cadaver dog, not some super underwater scuba rescue dog. He identifies the areas to find a decomposing body below for divers as the scent of rotting flesh bubbles to the top of the waters surface.

[neeray]

22 minutes ago, Horace said:

They need skilled rescue divers, and the article lists a "shortage of rescue divers" as a problem.  How many skilled rescue divers does Thailand have?  Maybe the authorities should have asked for assistance from foreign countries - that have expertise and skilled rescue divers - at the very beginning of this tragedy?

I have followed this thread and available news coverage quite intensively. The timeline I am seeing indicates that help was requested/accepted quite early on in the tragedy. I think it is only fair to allow a couple days at the beginning to assess the situation and make a domestic effort before recognizing the need for serious help. I must say, I am impressed with what I have seen so far. This has been a gargantuan task and effort. I salute the massive team.

Now bring home the boys please.

[Gold Star]

11 minutes ago, NotThatGuy said:

Having done regular caving i can tell you it’s not easy. Imagine pitch black darkness, and being surrounded by sharp pointy rocks on all sides. It’s slippery, the air is thin and it’s hard to get a sense of direction. Now add fast moving muddy water to that... so no, this isn’t easy even for expert divers or trained rescue team. 

I have been cave diving, recreationally. It is certainly not easy, and definitely dangerous in the best of conditions. It is extremely difficult with an unknown flooded cave with poor visibility. A string is tied at the entrance, with plastic arrows pointing back to the start point so that you can feel your way back in darkness or poor visibility. You go in as a team, and plan to use 1/3 of your air going in, 1/3 out, and 1/3 reserve. Perhaps spare air tanks in this case must be taken along underwater, and a cache of them delivered and secured in places along the way for future further attempts. The current there may accelerate where the passages narrow, sucking you into a crevice, or prevent you from getting through. It is strenuous, slow, and painstaking. Passages go up, down, sideways, get larger, and smaller, all the while there may be an air pocket, maybe not. Every time you move, you churn up the mud, making your exit all the more perilous. From the many Thailand caves I have seen, the water is very mirky, with soft mud. Their best chance is to get that water level to drop, so they can somehow get through. 10kms is a LOT of cave to do if underwater, and if found in a big enough air pocket and they stayed put, the boys must still make it out all the way as well.  Remember the Chilean miners, and the Phoenix? Start the drills and punch in some air holes with compressed air at least. 

[diddygq]

4 hours ago, webfact said:

"I'm confident all are still alive," Prime Minister Prayuth Chan-ocha told reporters.

I'm praying for the boys but whatever Mr. Prayuth says, thinks, believes, it's almost always the opposite. 

 

[neeray]

11 minutes ago, Gold Star said:

I have been cave diving, recreationally. It is certainly not easy, and definitely dangerous in the best of conditions. It is extremely difficult with an unknown flooded cave with poor visibility. A string is tied at the entrance, with plastic arrows pointing back to the start point so that you can feel your way back in darkness or poor visibility. You go in as a team, and plan to use 1/3 of your air going in, 1/3 out, and 1/3 reserve. Perhaps spare air tanks in this case must be taken along underwater, and a cache of them delivered and secured in places along the way for future further attempts. The current there may accelerate where the passages narrow, sucking you into a crevice, or prevent you from getting through. It is strenuous, slow, and painstaking. Passages go up, down, sideways, get larger, and smaller, all the while there may be an air pocket, maybe not. Every time you move, you churn up the mud, making your exit all the more perilous. From the many Thailand caves I have seen, the water is very mirky, with soft mud. Their best chance is to get that water level to drop, so they can somehow get through. 10kms is a LOT of cave to do if underwater, and if found in a big enough air pocket and they stayed put, the boys must still make it out all the way as well.  Remember the Chilean miners, and the Phoenix? Start the drills and punch in some air holes with compressed air at least. 

Fabulously said! 

Drill baby, drill.

[Docno]

1 hour ago, NextStationBangkok said:

 

I feel experts missed something like this.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-30431322

Video I've seen of that dog shows that he doesn't go underwater. He detects remains from the surface then signals their presence by barking and pacing. Even if he could go underwater, do you think he can hold his breath so long to swim long distances? Or do we now have tiny scuba gear that can fit a cocker spaniel...?

[PETERTHEEATER]

The RTN are using oxygen tanks according to the blurb chart in the OP of this thread. Why?

[BritManToo]

36 minutes ago, PETERTHEEATER said:

The RTN are using oxygen tanks according to the blurb chart in the OP of this thread. Why?

Easy, the translator or reporter doesn't know there is a difference between oxygen and air tanks.

All the TV News I have seen and they are carrying air tanks around.

Suspect nobody is using re-breathers or oxygen tanks, suspect the RTN doesn't have any or know how to use them.

Edited June 28, 2018 by BritManToo

[bofhman]

Has the fact that the boys may not be in the cave at all crossed anyones minds? I am sure it has but no one has mentioned it. That many boys! A practical joke gone to far by some or all of them? One can only hope they are in fact alive, dry and safe somewhere.

[BritManToo]

20 minutes ago, bofhman said:

Has the fact that the boys may not be in the cave at all crossed anyones minds? I am sure it has but no one has mentioned it. That many boys! A practical joke gone to far by some or all of them? One can only hope they are in fact alive, dry and safe somewhere.

Seems unlikely as they all left their bicycles chained to the railing at the cave entrance.

(as seen in this photo)

Edited June 28, 2018 by BritManToo

[Jingthing]

34 minutes ago, bofhman said:

Has the fact that the boys may not be in the cave at all crossed anyones minds? I am sure it has but no one has mentioned it. That many boys! A practical joke gone to far by some or all of them? One can only hope they are in fact alive, dry and safe somewhere.

I thought of that but judge that impossible because there is an adult leader and there is no way he would have allowed this to go on like this for many days now.