U.S. forces, British divers join search for boys missing in Thai cave

[Bill Miller]

12 hours ago, shy coconut said:

When there is an earthquake and people are missing, the UK sends out search and rescue teams, however

this is often up to a week after the event. These guys are not just sitting by the phone waiting for

it to ring, many have day jobs and equipment and transportation logistics take some time to organise.

 

It would be great if there were an international rescue crew able to be on the ground within hours, but

this is almost impossible to implement.

 

This is an awful situation and I'm sure everyone, of every nationality is doing everything they can to

save these boys.

This is true in many cases. One wonders about the military groups, however. They seem able to get anywhere in the world within a day or two if there is a military objective that needs addressing.
I expect in this case it involved at least some delay in request/permissions from the Thai authorities, on the basis of "We can do it all", when experience has often shown otherwise. Not just a Thai thing, either. Many nations hesitate to ask for assistance as it creates a sense of obligation.
I hope the kids are not the cost of it.

 

 

[Credo]

Sadly, it takes time for foreign countries to come to the aid of a foreign country.   They have to figure out from afar, what they can do, who can do it and get the logistics of getting it all together and sent on its way.   For the host country, they have some hoops to jump through as well.   Military planes landing with equipment need to be approved in advance.   

 

I don't think Thailand was reluctant to ask for help, but the seriousness of the situation and how daunting of a task wasn't anticipated.   Now even with foreign help, the task is still taking time.   

 

It's no walk in the park for anyone, regardless of technology or will.   

 

 

[Russell17au]

To drill a hole in the wall of the cave below the water level is very dangerous because when the water rushes through that hole which cannot be lined it is going to cause erosion and make the hole bigger and therefore it will erode the wall which in turn will weaken the wall and reduce the strength of the wall thus increasing the risk of a cave in. If you want to check this out then run a normal garden hose on any bare dirt and you just watch how quick the dirt washes away and erodes into a bigger channel. That is the reason you get landslides and banks of creeks and rivers washing away when it rains. The only safe way to remove that water is by pumping it out the entrance of the cave which is what the Thai's have been doing all along. The size of the pumps at the entrance can be huge but the size of the pumps inside the cave can only be small as they must be physically hand carried in to position there.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Russell17au

[sanemax]

2 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

To drill a hole in the wall of the cave below the water level is very dangerous because when the water rushes through that hole which cannot be lined it is going to cause erosion and make the hole bigger and therefore it will erode the wall which in turn will weaken the wall and reduce the strength of the wall thus increasing the risk of a cave in................. 

Although that wouldnt happen with rock, would it ?

[petermik]

7 hours ago, Russell17au said:

To drill a hole in the wall of the cave below the water level is very dangerous because when the water rushes through that hole which cannot be lined it is going to cause erosion and make the hole bigger and therefore it will erode the wall which in turn will weaken the wall and reduce the strength of the wall thus increasing the risk of a cave in. If you want to check this out then run a normal garden hose on any bare dirt and you just watch how quick the washes away and erodes into a bigger channel. That is the reason you get landslides when it rains. The only safe way to remove that water is by pumping it out the entrance of the cave which is what the Thai's have been doing all along. The size of the pumps at the entrance can be huge but the size of the pumps inside the cave can only be small as they must be physically hand carried in to position there.

Russell

Whilst we understand your concern don,t you think that the people in place at the cave now are more qualified to make the decision whether to drill or not....these people are experts at the actual scene....not someone tapping keys on a pc.

[Russell17au]

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Although that wouldnt happen with rock, would it ?

The dirt would wash away from around the rock and then the rock would fall and this is the problem

[Russell17au]

3 minutes ago, petermik said:

Russell

Whilst we understand your concern don,t you think that the people in place at the cave now are more qualified to make the decision whether to drill or not....these people are experts at the actual scene....not someone tapping keys on a pc.

17 years rescue including mines rescue I think I might have a little bit of experience in these things and not just someone tapping on keys on a pc.

[Kieran00001]

1 minute ago, Russell17au said:

The dirt would wash away from around the rock and then the rock would fall and this is the problem

 

You're really not a thinking person, leave that stuff to those who are.  No amount of washing is going to cause a mountain to subside, the rock goes down hundreds of kilometers.

 

[petermik]

7 hours ago, Russell17au said:

17 years rescue including mines rescue I think I might have a little bit of experience in these things and not just someone tapping on keys on a pc.

Pity then your not at the site to give your "expertise" on this....let them get on with it I say...far more qualified than any of us on the outside

 

p.s. Last year here in a bar over here I happened to meet the US Navy seal that killed Bin Laden.....at least that,s what he claimed to be

[Russell17au]

4 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

You're really not a thinking person, leave that stuff to those who are.  No amount of washing is going to cause a mountain to subside, the rock goes down hundreds of kilometers.

 

There is no need for the sarcastic remarks. That mountain is not one piece of rock, it is many rocks with dirt around them and you remove that dirt by a moving force and those rocks become unstable and then they move. What caused the Thredbo avalanche in NSW Australia. It is the same as this mountain range rock and dirt

[Peterw42]

22 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Although that wouldnt happen with rock, would it ?

Have you considered that the only thing stopping water rising into the pockets inside the cave (where the kids may be sheltered), is the air in that pocket has nowhere to go, drill a hole and let the air out and the water then rises into the air pocket.

Hold a bucket upside-down underwater, the air will stay trapped  in the bucket, drill a hole in the bucket, the air rushes out and the water rushes in.

 

Even if the terrain above was remotely accessible (its not), not as east as "just drill a hole".

Edited June 29, 2018 by Peterw42

[Kieran00001]

9 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

17 years rescue including mines rescue I think I might have a little bit of experience in these things and not just someone tapping on keys on a pc.

 

If you are a mine rescue specialist then why on earth are you making ridiculous assumptions about dirt holding the mountain together?  It is far more likely, considering the large cave, that it is a large piece of solid rock.  

[BritManToo]

17 minutes ago, petermik said:

Russell

Whilst we understand your concern don,t you think that the people in place at the cave now are more qualified to make the decision whether to drill or not....these people are experts at the actual scene....not someone tapping keys on a pc.

I doubt anyone involved with the rescue or related to the kids is reading this forum, so it doesn't really matter what any of us type.

But it's nice to hear a few of us Brits are getting in on the rescue, we usually do this sort of stuff very well.

[Russell17au]

2 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

If you are a mine rescue specialist then why on earth are you making ridiculous assumptions about dirt holding the mountain together?  It is far more likely, considering the large cave, that it is a large piece of solid rock.  

Caves are not solid rock, where do you think the sand and the mud on the floor of the cave has come from.

[Russell17au]

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I doubt anyone involved with the rescue or related to the kids is reading this forum, so it doesn't really matter what any of us type.

But it's nice to hear a few of us Brits are getting in on the rescue, we usually do this sort of stuff very well.

Yes, and the 3 Brits would be the only really qualified people that are there. How many of these type of incidents has the Thai Navy seals, the US army ever done? the answer to that would be they have done none, so they need to rely on those 3 Brits who do have the knowledge of that particular cave.

[Kieran00001]

3 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

There is no need for the sarcastic remarks. That mountain is not one piece of rock, it is many rocks with dirt around them and you remove that dirt by a moving force and those rocks become unstable and then they move. What caused the Thredbo avalanche in NSW Australia. It is the same as this mountain range rock and dirt

 

No, that was caused by the top soil washing away, you are talking about washing away the solid roof of a cave, very different things, and it is one piece of rock, the roof of the cave is very thin, if it were made of earth it would have collapsed when the water ran in that eroded the cavity that is the cave.

[Artisi]

21 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

The dirt would wash away from around the rock and then the rock would fall and this is the problem

The "rock" for a better name in that area as is the majority of caves in Thailand is Krast, so no rocks or dirt of any major concern. 

[BritManToo]

7 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Caves are not solid rock, where do you think the sand and the mud on the floor of the cave has come from.

Washed in the entrance or bat pooh.

Takatan Cave near Chiang Mai has a floor comprised entirely of bat pooh, and it's deep.

[sanemax]

Looks like the Prime Minister has just arrived

[Kieran00001]

2 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Yes, and the 3 Brits would be the only really qualified people that are there. How many of these type of incidents has the Thai Navy seals, the US army ever done? the answer to that would be they have done none, so they need to rely on those 3 Brits who do have the knowledge of that particular cave.

 

 

You have no idea what you're talking about and yet here you are pretending to be an expert.

 

The Seals have way more experience in rescuing people from caves than anyone in the UK does, they have saved hundreds of people from partially collapsed caves in Afghanistan.

 

[Peterw42]

6 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

If you are a mine rescue specialist then why on earth are you making ridiculous assumptions about dirt holding the mountain together?  It is far more likely, considering the large cave, that it is a large piece of solid rock.  

These are the things that take geologists/engineers 2-3 days to figure out. There may be a body of water directly above the cave that will flood the cave below, who knows.

These simplistic "just drill a hole" statements are just that, simplistic. It would probably take the worlds experts a week to decide where and how to dig a hole from above, and even then the terrain above is not accessible

[Kieran00001]

11 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Caves are not solid rock, where do you think the sand and the mud on the floor of the cave has come from.

 

Limestone caves are formed by water ingress eroding the rock, and any dirt, away.  By the time there is a sizable cave there is no soil left to erode away as it is softer and so it goes first.  The sand and mud you see on the floor comes in with water, in the form of sediment from topsoil outside the cave and from animal droppings inside the cave.

[Artisi]

1 minute ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

 

You have no idea what you're talking about and yet here you are pretending to be an expert.

 

The Seals have way more experience in rescuing people from caves than anyone in the UK does, they have saved hundreds of people from partially collapsed caves in Afghanistan.

 

Remember that many people are experts, in their own mind, and therefore know it all and are the authority of all knowledge. The problem being they usually know bugger-all and cover it up with waffle. 

[Matt96]

10 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Yes, and the 3 Brits would be the only really qualified people that are there. How many of these type of incidents has the Thai Navy seals,

typical British chauvinist remark. they do really believe that an every man from Britain is more qualified in anything than a navy seal from Thailand.

 

May be British empire collapsed because of this ignorance and bigotry.

[Kieran00001]

1 minute ago, Peterw42 said:

These are the things that take geologists/engineers 2-3 days to figure out. There may be a body of water directly above the cave that will flood the cave below, who knows.

These simplistic "just drill a hole" statements are just that, simplistic. It would probably take the worlds experts a week to decide where and how to dig a hole from above, and even then the terrain above is not accessible

 

Nonsense, there are fissures from the roof of the cave right up to the surface, the only issue is terrain.

[petermik]

7 hours ago, Matt96 said:

typical British chauvinist remark. they do really believe that an every man from Britain is more qualified in anything than a navy seal from Thailand.

 

May be British empire collapsed because of this ignorance and bigotry.

Russell is Australian.......not a Brit

[crazyk]

Could they not use a helicopter with heat seeking (thermal image) devices to fly over the length & breadth of the caves to find where they are & hopefully still alive then excavate dowwn

[Peterw42]

3 minutes ago, crazyk said:

Could they not use a helicopter with heat seeking (thermal image) devices to fly over the length & breadth of the caves to find where they are & hopefully still alive then excavate dowwn

Sounds great in theory and I believe they are using thermal imaging drones etc. Even the best equipment in the world cannot see kilometres inside a large mountain range.

[AsianAtHeart]

Russell has not apparently noticed the 6" - 8" blue PVC pipes seen in the newscasts being hand-carried by volunteers and soldiers at the site of the drilling.  It's a bit more difficult to induce cavitation in the mountain when the water flow is encased in PVC.

[greenchair]

19 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Looks like the Prime Minister has just arrived

Really. where is that. 

It's been quiet in the news for a while. 

Somethings up.