Plant Based Nutrition and Fasting

[Justfine]

https://blog.bulletproof.com/carl-lewis-vegan/

 

Carl Lewis had more success pre vegan.

 

 

[Kohsamida]

1 hour ago, Justfine said:

https://blog.bulletproof.com/carl-lewis-vegan/

 

Carl Lewis had more success pre vegan.

 

 

Fact is, in his own estimation and those of many other people, he ran the best meet of his life in the 1991 World Championships, AFTER he switched to a vegan diet specifically to prepare for the games.

 

The conclusions of that article you linked are incredibly biased in regards to his post-1991 performance, and the scientific basis cited by the author is quite ambiguous, and shaped to meet the author's own beliefs.  It was hardly an open and honest assessment IMO.

 

Besides, we're not talking about purely performance attributes in this thread when we speak of the benefits of plant-based nutrition.  I mean,  there are plenty of things that will enhance performance in the short-term and yet are quite unhealthy in the long-run.  For instance, steroids will certainly boost performance right through the roof but it is hardly a healthy strategy in the long term.

 

That author's  contention that higher protein intake will almost always result in better performance is not only false, and only aggressively promoted these days by the highly profitable performance supplement industries (protein shakes, etc), but it is also VERY unhealthy.

 

Unusually high-protein intake has been scientifically proven to cause serious long-term health issues, particularly in the case of animal proteins.  Since you asked me to back up my remarks with facts instead of "feelings",  here are just a few legitimate scientific studies from highly reputable and peer-reviewed sources to support this view:

 

1) COLORECTAL CANCER:  Long-term high intake of meat, particularly red meat, is associated with significantly increased risk of colorectal cancer. The 2007 report of the World Cancer Research Fund and American Institute for Cancer Research, Food, Nutrition, and the Prevention of Cancer reported that, based on available evidence, diets high in red meat were considered probable contributors to colorectal cancer risk. In addition, high-protein diets are typically low in dietary fiber. Fiber appears to be protective against cancer. 

Source: [ World Cancer Research Fund. Food, Nutrition and the Prevention of Cancer: A Global Perspective. American Institute for Cancer Research. Washington, D.C.: 2007. ]

 

2) REDUCED KIDNEY FUNCTION: When people eat too much protein, it releases nitrogen into the blood or is digested and metabolized. This places a strain on the kidneys, which must expel the waste through the urine. High-protein diets are associated with reduced kidney function. Over time, individuals who consume very large amounts of protein, particularly animal protein, risk permanent loss of kidney function. Harvard researchers reported that high-protein diets were associated with a significant decline in kidney function, based on observations in 1,624 women participating in the Nurses’ Health Study.  The kidney-damaging effect was seen only with animal protein. Plant protein had no harmful effect.

Source: [Knight EL, Stampfer MJ, Hankinson SE, Spiegelman D, Curhan GC. The impact of protein intake on renal function decline in women with normal renal function or mild renal insufficiency. Ann Int Med. 2003;138:460-467.]

 

3) HEART DISEASE:  Typical high-protein diets are extremely high in dietary cholesterol and saturated fat.  The effect of such diets on blood cholesterol levels is a matter of ongoing research. However, such diets pose additional risks to the heart, including increased risk for heart problems immediately following a meal. Evidence indicates that meals high in saturated fat adversely affect the compliance of arteries, increasing the risk of heart attacks.  Adequate protein can be consumed through a variety of plant products that are cholesterol-free and contain only small amounts of fat.

Source:  [Nestel PJ, Shige H, Pomeroy S, Cehun M, Chin-Dusting J. Post-prandial remnant lipids impair arterial compliance. J Am Coll Cardiol. 2001;37:1929-1935.]

 

I could go on and on, but most people participating in this thread already know these facts so it would be redundant to do so.  Again, perhaps you should learn a little more about all of this by reading books by some of the authors I previously cited before you make such critical and, in my opinion, unfounded remarks as you repeatedly are doing.

 

Just something to think about perhaps?? ?

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Bonobojt]

Vegan Strongman breaks world record 

https://www.onegreenplanet.org/news/vegan-strongman-patrik-babaoumain-breaks-world-record/

 

 

[Bonobojt]

1 hour ago, Kohsamida said:

Fact is, in his own estimation and those of many other people, he ran the best meet of his life in the 1991 World Championships, AFTER he switched to a vegan diet specifically to prepare for the games.

 

The conclusions of that article you linked are incredibly biased in regards to his post-1991 performance, and the scientific basis cited by the author is quite ambiguous, and shaped to meet the author's own beliefs.  It was hardly an open and honest assessment IMO.

 

Besides, we're not talking about purely performance attributes in this thread when we speak of the benefits of plant-based nutrition.  I mean,  there are plenty of things that will enhance performance in the short-term and yet are quite unhealthy in the long-run.  For instance, steroids will certainly boost performance right through the roof but it is hardly a healthy strategy in the long term.

 

That author's  contention that higher protein intake will almost always result in better performance is not only false, and only aggressively promoted these days by the highly profitable performance supplement industries (protein shakes, etc), but it is also VERY unhealthy.

 

Unusually high-protein intake has been scientifically proven to cause serious long-term health issues, particularly in the case of animal proteins.  Since you asked me to back up my remarks with facts instead of "feelings",  here are just a few legitimate scientific studies from highly reputable and peer-reviewed sources to support this view:

 

1) COLORECTAL CANCER:  Long-term high intake of meat, particularly red meat, is associated with significantly increased risk of colorectal cancer. The 2007 report of the World Cancer Research Fund and American Institute for Cancer Research, Food, Nutrition, and the Prevention of Cancer reported that, based on available evidence, diets high in red meat were considered probable contributors to colorectal cancer risk. In addition, high-protein diets are typically low in dietary fiber. Fiber appears to be protective against cancer. 

Source: [ World Cancer Research Fund. Food, Nutrition and the Prevention of Cancer: A Global Perspective. American Institute for Cancer Research. Washington, D.C.: 2007. ]

 

2) REDUCED KIDNEY FUNCTION: When people eat too much protein, it releases nitrogen into the blood or is digested and metabolized. This places a strain on the kidneys, which must expel the waste through the urine. High-protein diets are associated with reduced kidney function. Over time, individuals who consume very large amounts of protein, particularly animal protein, risk permanent loss of kidney function. Harvard researchers reported that high-protein diets were associated with a significant decline in kidney function, based on observations in 1,624 women participating in the Nurses’ Health Study.  The kidney-damaging effect was seen only with animal protein. Plant protein had no harmful effect.

Source: [Knight EL, Stampfer MJ, Hankinson SE, Spiegelman D, Curhan GC. The impact of protein intake on renal function decline in women with normal renal function or mild renal insufficiency. Ann Int Med. 2003;138:460-467.]

 

3) HEART DISEASE:  Typical high-protein diets are extremely high in dietary cholesterol and saturated fat.  The effect of such diets on blood cholesterol levels is a matter of ongoing research. However, such diets pose additional risks to the heart, including increased risk for heart problems immediately following a meal. Evidence indicates that meals high in saturated fat adversely affect the compliance of arteries, increasing the risk of heart attacks.  Adequate protein can be consumed through a variety of plant products that are cholesterol-free and contain only small amounts of fat.

Source:  [Nestel PJ, Shige H, Pomeroy S, Cehun M, Chin-Dusting J. Post-prandial remnant lipids impair arterial compliance. J Am Coll Cardiol. 2001;37:1929-1935.]

 

I could go on and on, but most people participating in this thread already know these facts so it would be redundant to do so.  Again, perhaps you should learn a little more about all of this by reading books by some of the authors I previously cited before you make such critical and, in my opinion, unfounded remarks as you repeatedly are doing.

 

Just something to think about perhaps?? ?

 

I sense this guy is just a typical meat eating troll, who will never take plant based diets seriously, will never believe anything we say, even though we've told him already we have the science.

[MalandLee]

Just now, Bonobojt said:

I sense this guy is just a typical meat eating troll, who will never take plant based diets seriously, will never believe anything we say, even though we've told him already we have the science.

Absolutely on the money with that statement - I did not join is as it is EXACTLY how I feel.

[Bonobojt]

18 minutes ago, MalandLee said:

Absolutely on the money with that statement - I did not join is as it is EXACTLY how I feel.

yeah I could tell, won't waste my time with him anymore, I'd rather focus on people that do want be healthy and care about the animals/victims

[Bonobojt]

well its my birthday this Sunday, and starting yesterday I've decided to be 100% plant based, so I think I will head down to my local Vegan health food store and order some delicious homemade vegan pancakes, and splurge on some other food.

 

what vegan food would you treat yourself to if it was your birthday ? 

[Kohsamida]

1 hour ago, Bonobojt said:

I sense this guy is just a typical meat eating troll, who will never take plant based diets seriously, will never believe anything we say, even though we've told him already we have the science.

I'd agree with you except he has said some intelligent things about nutrition in general. 

 

It would be nice if he'd become more informed about plant-based before knocking it, and then if he had negative viewpoints to discuss, it would be a little more credible.  We'll see, I guess.

 

Nothing about nutrition and health is etched in stone, and a strong pro/con type of debate can be a pretty positive and defining thing. There's nothing better for a thread like this than somebody with strong opposing views and a willingness to debate intelligently and with vigor. 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Kohsamida]

48 minutes ago, Bonobojt said:

well its my birthday this Sunday, and starting yesterday I've decided to be 100% plant based, so I think I will head down to my local Vegan health food store and order some delicious homemade vegan pancakes, and splurge on some other food.

 

what vegan food would you treat yourself to if it was your birthday ? 

Nice!  Happy Birthday (in advance) ?  If it were me I think I'd go to a favorite Vegan restaurant (Pun Pun, my current fave in Chiang Mai) with friends and sample all sort of things I never tried before, but yeah, Vegan pancakes sound like a pretty nice way to start the day!

[MalandLee]

1 hour ago, Bonobojt said:

well its my birthday this Sunday, and starting yesterday I've decided to be 100% plant based, so I think I will head down to my local Vegan health food store and order some delicious homemade vegan pancakes, and splurge on some other food.

 

what vegan food would you treat yourself to if it was your birthday ? 

VERY occasionally we make vegan burgers, sausages, hash browns, scrambled tofu & the like. Then we have our own version of a breakfast fry up. Really is quite delicious. 

 

If I were next door......... ?

 

Hope you have a great birthday.

[Bonobojt]

by the way, I've noticed you've been mentioning a plant based documentary but have called it the wrong name, got the words the wrong way round, its called Forks over Knives , not Knives over Forks 

[MalandLee]

31 minutes ago, Bonobojt said:

by the way, I've noticed you've been mentioning a plant based documentary but have called it the wrong name, got the words the wrong way round, its called Forks over Knives , not Knives over Forks 

Yup, done it all my life. I am not aphasic, but, not sure of the syndrome  except that I know it has a name. Never really bothered to look.

 

Hope it does not send you blind or incandescent  with rage..  

[MalandLee]

Knives over Forks is a great movie.... ( I think this is what your referring - on another thread??) - GREAT info for the larger people... 

 

THIS is LOOOONG, but, learning curves are Loooong too.

When (if) you have time this movie on weight loss is good.

 

[Justfine]

1 minute ago, MalandLee said:

Knives over Forks is a great movie.... ( I think this is what your referring - on another thread??) - GREAT info for the larger people... 

 

THIS is LOOOONG, but, learning curves are Loooong too.

When (if) you have time this movie on weight loss is good.

 

Simple. Cut out processed carbs.

[Sheryl]

On 7/2/2018 at 2:33 PM, Bonobojt said:

it can take a while to become b12 deficient, but Dr Micheal Greger says we must supplement so I'll listen to him since he's doctor and he has looked at the scientific studies on it, he says 250mcg a day or 2,500 mcg once a week, he also recommends the Cyanocobalamin form of b12 since its the most studied. I don't think you can overdose on b12 but you don't need to take huge amounts if your not b12 deficient, 250 to 500 mcg a day is enough, your body only absorbs a tiny amount of it and you pee out the rest.

 

There is absolutely no reason to supplement B12 if your levels are consistently normal and doing so may be harmful.

 

If this doctor actually advocates universal B12 supplementation even in non-deficient people that alone would put him in the quack category IMO.

 

It is advisable for older people (say 60 and above) and all vegetarians/vegans to check their levels periodically. But treat only if needed.

[balo]

I buy B-vitamins and 50+ centrum from iHerb.com and save a lot of money. Same sold in Thailand is very overpriced.

[Kohsamida]

49 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

There is absolutely no reason to supplement B12 if your levels are consistently normal and doing so may be harmful.

 

If this doctor actually advocates universal B12 supplementation even in non-deficient people that alone would put him in the quack category IMO.

 

It is advisable for older people (say 60 and above) and all vegetarians/vegans to check their levels periodically. But treat only if needed.

How can B-12 supplementation be harmful?  Please elaborate.  My understanding is that even if massively over-dosed, whatever the body doesn't use is simply excreted in the urine and has no toxic effect.  The only issue I've ever heard of is for people in the early stages of Leber's disease, and even then, only the cyanocobalamin form of B-12 is contraindicated, not the methyl form.  Please give us more details of what you mean.  

 

The reason most vegans supplement with B-12 even though they are not deficient is because it's really the only micronutrient need that cannot be met in a Vegan diet.  It might take a long time to develop a deficiency, but it's a given that it will happen eventually. 

 

Since most vegans are otherwise healthy they may not feel the need for regular blood work to detect a deficiency, and simply prefer to supplement as insurance that a deficiency won't develop.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Bonobojt]

how could I forget this guy, as I enjoy doing calisthenics myself, Frank Medrano is vegan/plant based !

 

 

[TravelerEastWest]

23 hours ago, Bonobojt said:

can't remember which interview it was, he's done so many I can't just watch them all, but I found this article

 

https://livestrong.com/article/476218-vitamin-b12-urine-color/

 

your body absorbs the b12 it needs which is only a small amount, then excretes the rest through the urine, that's why your urine colour may change if your taking a b12 complex or b12 supplement etc..

From your link:

 

"... Your liver keeps small amounts of this nutrient on hand for years."

 

"You only need a small amount of B12 each day: 2.4 mcg."

 

So your body does store B-12 - it only leaves via urination when you have an excess - which I think is a supply for years...

 

Basically the main point is that you don't normally need it daily it you have a supply good for years.

 

But I could easily be wrong.

[TravelerEastWest]

Kohsamida,

 

You are very patient person and a good writer.

 

I am not sure if the meat advocate is a troll or just not open minded.

 

 

[Justfine]

7 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Kohsamida,

 

You are very patient person and a good writer.

 

I am not sure if the meat advocate is a troll or just not open minded.

 

 

Just have more knowledge on diet and nutrition. 

 

If you aren't interested in science I can't help you.

[Justfine]

1 hour ago, Kohsamida said:

How can B-12 supplementation be harmful?  Please elaborate.  My understanding is that even if massively over-dosed, whatever the body doesn't use is simply excreted in the urine and has no toxic effect.  The only issue I've ever heard of is for people in the early stages of Leber's disease, and even then, only the cyanocobalamin form of B-12 is contraindicated, not the methyl form.  Please give us more details of what you mean.  

 

The reason most vegans supplement with B-12 even though they are not deficient is because it's really the only micronutrient need that cannot be met in a Vegan diet.  It might take a long time to develop a deficiency, but it's a given that it will happen eventually. 

 

Since most vegans are otherwise healthy they may not feel the need for regular blood work to detect a deficiency, and simply prefer to supplement as insurance that a deficiency won't develop.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/08/b12-energy/537654/

 

Read up.

[Justfine]

http://www.yourdoctorsorders.com/2012/08/vegans-and-cancer-china-study-2/

 

 

[Justfine]

"Since most vegans are otherwise healthy "

 

Are they? They normally look pale and sick.

[Kohsamida]

33 minutes ago, Justfine said:

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/08/b12-energy/537654/

 

Read up.

Good to know; good information for all to consider. thanks for the link.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Justfine]

I've seen mediterranean diet plans that suggest alternative vege/meat days. So meat (or eggs) every 2nd day.

 

The Dalai Lama eats meat every 2nd day.

 

Makes sense to me.

 

 

[Bonobojt]

the b12 supplements cause lung cancer study is addressed in this video by Unnatural Vegan, basically if you read the study, the increase risk of cancer was with smokers who took b12 only.

 

 

http://jacknorrisrd.com/b12-and-lung-cancer/

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by Bonobojt

[Kohsamida]

4 hours ago, Bonobojt said:

the b12 supplements cause lung cancer study is addressed in this video by Unnatural Vegan, basically if you read the study, the increase risk of cancer was with smokers who took b12 only.

 

 

http://jacknorrisrd.com/b12-and-lung-cancer/

 

After carefully reviewing the OSU study referred to in the article, my take-away from it is that B12 may increase the risk of lung cancer in males over the age of 50 who are also heavy smokers and are taking excessive amounts of B12 (much more than a Vegan would normally need to take.) 

 

The study does not suggest that B12 on it's own raises the risk of lung cancer in non-smokers.  Since smokers are already at high risk for developing lung cancer, the study only suggests that B12 acts synergistically with smoking to raise the risk.

 

So, for vegans who don't smoke I don't see any risk imposed by supplementing with B12, especially if it is at a dosage that only provides the recommended  MDR of around 2.8-3.0 mcg (absorbed).  Anybody care to debate this?

Edited July 3, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Kohsamida]

16 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

From your link:

 

"... Your liver keeps small amounts of this nutrient on hand for years."

 

"You only need a small amount of B12 each day: 2.4 mcg."

 

So your body does store B-12 - it only leaves via urination when you have an excess - which I think is a supply for years...

 

Basically the main point is that you don't normally need it daily it you have a supply good for years.

 

But I could easily be wrong.

I think it depends to some extent on your level of physical activity.  I know some vegan athletes (triathlon) that supplement by injection because their blood tests indicate a deficiency, whereas during their non-training months, their levels seems to stay in the normal range without that need.  So, surprising to me, the deficiency seems like it can happen fairly quickly in certain cases.  Granted, what I'm saying is only anecdotal but those guys are pretty serious about optimal nutrition and training so it's something to consider.

Edited July 4, 2018 by Kohsamida

[TravelerEastWest]

Something interesting:

 

https://www.runnersworld.com/nutrition-weight-loss/a19573412/rich-roll-vegan-diet/?utm_content=2018-07-04&utm_campaign=Rundown&utm_source=runnersworld.com&utm_medium=newsletter&smartcode=YN_0027502591_0001673168&sha1hashlower=b98976fbc20c6a7628315399a0ac5c41f911fe6f&md5hash=9d6013d8d5d78d7d906cea28132e8093

 

 

 "...the deficiency seems like it can happen fairly quickly in certain cases."

 

Interesting - there will always be outliers in the statistics - so to be safe one can now and then get a B-12 test.

 

I just noticed "Dextrose" in a B-12 supplement that I ordered from iherb the brand is Mason. I will look for another brand if I need a large dose in the future.

Edited July 5, 2018 by TravelerEastWest
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