Put your cards on the table, EU makes last Brexit call to Britain

[stephenterry]

Brexiteer: I voted for the UK to leave the single market and the customs union.

Remoron: And then what?

Brexiteer: Then the UK is free of the EU rules and regulations.

Remoron: So where do we buy our goods, bearing in mind we're dealing in the biggest market on our doorstep and with dozens of non-eu countries by virtue of the UK being a member of the EU? 

Brexiteer: We'll set up new ambitious trading deals world-wide

Remoron: I've heard that every new deal will take three years to implement. And in the meantime all EU traded  goods will be held up on both sides of the channel in one great log-jam, and that's before the Irish start shooting at each other over a border.

Brexiteer: But we won't have to pay the EU for the privilege. 

Remoron: That's true. We can pay benefits to those thousands who have lost their jobs, instead.

Brexiteer: That's what I voted for. 

 

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

https://www.politico.eu/article/theresa-may-boris-johnson-david-davis-brexit-britains-zombie-prime-minister/

 

May will be gone before Christmas.

Yes, it will all be over by Christmas! Where have I heard that?

 

Actually, we should apply to have the article 50 extended. EU have indicated this would be acceptable but we must apply. In the current mess, self inflicted deadlines are unhelpful. There may well be an election or another referendum of some sort

[CG1 Blue]

3 hours ago, kwilco said:

An opinion needs to be based on evidence analysis and rational thought - no "argument" for Brexit shows this therefore you don't have an opinion.

The fact you don't understand why people wanted to leave the EU speaks volumes.

 

I totally understand the Remain argument, but I disagree with it.

 

 

[The manic]

13 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

We were forced out? - Nobody forced you out!
England is finished whether we stay in the EU or not.
Does not sound optimistic.

All EU countries have the immigration pressure.
It is simply because of the economic refugees, the overpopulation and the crazy birth rates in countries where not enough food grows.
The UK is already fat overcrowded with many cultures.
As an EU citizen, I also like to look at condominiums in Budapest.
As an EU citizen, I can easily buy there.
However, I do not know how it looks like after Brexit.

Forced out by EU officials intransigence and refusal to make reasonable concessions. I have lived and worked all over the world in Europe before we joined.  We don't need the unfettered free movement of people. Just issue work permits and residence permits to the workers we want and cancel them if break the law or attack our institutions.

[whatsupdoc]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Yes, it will all be over by Christmas! Where have I heard that?

 

Actually, we should apply to have the article 50 extended. EU have indicated this would be acceptable but we must apply. In the current mess, self inflicted deadlines are unhelpful. There may well be an election or another referendum of some sort

No please!!! Don't let this circus go on. The Chequers "agreement" seems unacceptable to nearly everyone so that one is DOA. The UK won't accept a straight Norway or Canada solution and the EU will not go for anything else. That leaves remain in the EU (unlikely) or no deal.

After a couple of years of a disastrous no deal Brexit the UK will reapply for EU membership. Everybody happy again.

[stephenterry]

1 minute ago, whatsupdoc said:

No please!!! Don't let this circus go on. The Chequers "agreement" seems unacceptable to nearly everyone so that one is DOA. The UK won't accept a straight Norway or Canada solution and the EU will not go for anything else. That leaves remain in the EU (unlikely) or no deal.

After a couple of years of a disastrous no deal Brexit the UK will reapply for EU membership. Everybody happy again.

On a scale of 1-10, I think it highly unlikely (2) that a 'no deal' agreement will be the outcome. Unless May is pushed out of office, which is more likely. (3)

 

Why? Because it's neither in the EU or the UK's interest to crash out, as May has already stated in her cabinet 'agreement' on the way forward.

[The Renegade]

20 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Yes, it will all be over by Christmas! Where have I heard that?

 

Actually, we should apply to have the article 50 extended. EU have indicated this would be acceptable but we must apply. In the current mess, self inflicted deadlines are unhelpful. There may well be an election or another referendum of some sort

Of course extending the Article 50 deadline would be acceptable to the EU. It means the continued handing over of the UK's moolah.

 

This is not a self inflicted deadline. It is an Article 50 deadline. How surprising that you do not know this ?

 

Another Referendum or election. Not likely to happen. May getting ousted will bring on neither.

[dick dasterdly]

4 minutes ago, The manic said:

Forced out by EU officials intransigence and refusal to make reasonable concessions. I have lived and worked all over the world in Europe before we joined.  We don't need the unfettered free movement of people. Just issue work permits and residence permits to the workers we want and cancel them if break the law or attack our institutions.

Agree.

 

I have no problem with those from the eu that have been offered a well paid job in the uk - but I have a serious problem with the open doors policy, that has given brit. employers an even better opportunity to keep salaries/wages low for everyone apart from those in their own tiers....

 

'Pricing themselves out of a job' (for low-paid workers), as opposed to 'Necessary to pay for the best applicants' (for those at the top)...... springs to mind ☹️.

[stephenterry]

15 minutes ago, The manic said:

Forced out by EU officials intransigence and refusal to make reasonable concessions. I have lived and worked all over the world in Europe before we joined.  We don't need the unfettered free movement of people. Just issue work permits and residence permits to the workers we want and cancel them if break the law or attack our institutions.

It's not a cost effective solution or very practical in monitoring and enforcing it. Imagine the worker permit queues at all UK entry and exit points As for issuing residence permits, that's a non-starter, IMO.

[whatsupdoc]

2 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

On a scale of 1-10, I think it highly unlikely (2) that a 'no deal' agreement will be the outcome. Unless May is pushed out of office, which is more likely. (3)

 

Why? Because it's neither in the EU or the UK's interest to crash out, as May has already stated in her cabinet 'agreement' on the way forward.

True, but the clock keeps ticking and to extend the deadline when there is no progress at all doesn't seem likely either.

[dick dasterdly]

5 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

No please!!! Don't let this circus go on. The Chequers "agreement" seems unacceptable to nearly everyone so that one is DOA. The UK won't accept a straight Norway or Canada solution and the EU will not go for anything else. That leaves remain in the EU (unlikely) or no deal.

After a couple of years of a disastrous no deal Brexit the UK will reapply for EU membership. Everybody happy again.

Fair enough.

 

So you agree that the uk needs to leave, and then a couple of years later, see if the electorate wish to re-apply for membership?

[whatsupdoc]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

Fair enough.

 

So you agree that the uk needs to leave, and then a couple of years later, see if the electorate wish to re-apply for membership?

No, just remain in the first place is much easier and better.

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, stephenterry said:

Imagine the worker permit queues at all UK entry and exit points

What queues ?

 

Employer does the paperwork for a work permit and visa. Employer responsible for the behaviour of the individual named on said visa and work permit for the duration of employment.

 

Employment ends, leave the Country.

 

Imagine such a system ?? It works a treat throughout most of the world.

[dick dasterdly]

15 minutes ago, The manic said:

Forced out by EU officials intransigence and refusal to make reasonable concessions. I have lived and worked all over the world in Europe before we joined.  We don't need the unfettered free movement of people. Just issue work permits and residence permits to the workers we want and cancel them if break the law or attack our institutions.

 

Just now, stephenterry said:

It's not a cost effective solution or very practical in monitoring and enforcing it. Imagine the worker permit queues at all UK entry and exit points As for issuing residence permits, that's a non-starter, IMO.

It's the normal 'system' for most countries?

 

Apply for a job, and if offered the job - the applicant and employer fill out the necessary paperwork.  No "worker permit queues" necessary.

[Chomper Higgot]

8 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Agree.

 

I have no problem with those from the eu that have been offered a well paid job in the uk - but I have a serious problem with the open doors policy, that has given brit. employers an even better opportunity to keep salaries/wages low for everyone apart from those in their own tiers....

 

'Pricing themselves out of a job' (for low-paid workers), as opposed to 'Necessary to pay for the best applicants' (for those at the top)...... springs to mind ☹️.

As we’ve discussed before, your argument relies on the belief that workers are passive pawns unable to challenge low pay.

 

Workers who are members of unions are better paid:

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10860017/Union-members-4000-a-year-better-off-government-report-suggests.html

 

[stephenterry]

3 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

What queues ?

 

Employer does the paperwork for a work permit and visa. Employer responsible for the behaviour of the individual named on said visa and work permit for the duration of employment.

 

Employment ends, leave the Country.

 

Imagine such a system ?? It works a treat throughout most of the world.

Not convinced, sorry. It's far easier to flash a EU passport at Immigration. Saves paperwork throughout, unless 'other countries practices' are observed, like Thailand when it can be a month long nightmare getting a work permit in place. As for residency, forget  it.

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

OK I will say it again, although those posters who have been on here a while, certainly for the 2 year period since the 2016 referendum. I voted Leave. I was still eligible for a vote even though I have lived here in Thailand for a long time.

 

I follow politics and believe everyone should, if they want to have  a say and have their opinions valued.

 

So I listened to the prime Minister DC who clearly stated that by voting to Leave the EU we would leave the single market, customs union and European court of Justice jurisdiction (although I always thought this was never a complete leave)

 

 So from the above I voted leave. everyone I know who voted leave did the same with the same understanding. The term soft and hard brexit wasn't invented and has been so, by remainers trying to 'stop the above.

 

tebbe is that clear?

Do you seriously believe that everyone that voted to leave had heard or read what DC stated, understood what DC stated and recognised the consequences of what DC stated?

It should be remembered what DC had put on the ballot paper, DC had no authority to say that anything else would happen, just as TM had no authority to invoke Art 50, something DC also thought he could do. The future cannot hang on someone's delusion of grandeur.

If it wasn't on the ballot paper, it wasn't voted for, anything else was nothing more than promotional decoration.

[The Renegade]

8 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

Not convinced, sorry. It's far easier to flash a EU passport at Immigration. Saves paperwork throughout, unless 'other countries practices' are observed, like Thailand when it can be a month long nightmare getting a work permit in place. As for residency, forget  it.

I could not care less whether you are convinced or not.

 

I stated that the Work Permit and Visa is the system used throughout most of the World.

10 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

It's far easier to flash a EU passport at Immigration

Yes we know.

 

I wont go into the crime aspect, that would be too far off topic.

[The Renegade]

5 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Do you seriously believe that everyone that voted to leave had heard or read what DC stated, understood what DC stated and recognised the consequences of what DC stated?

It should be remembered what DC had put on the ballot paper, DC had no authority to say that anything else would happen, just as TM had no authority to invoke Art 50, something DC also thought he could do. The future cannot hang on someone's delusion of grandeur.

If it wasn't on the ballot paper, it wasn't voted for, anything else was nothing more than promotional decoration.

Only 2 things on the ballot paper.

 

Vote leave 

 

Or 

 

Vote remain

 

More chose to vote leave, regardless of what they had read, understood or thought might happen.

 

And as most leavers were over 45, it can be assumed that they at least had some idea of what they were voting for.

 

Contrary to what most remainers trot out. It is impossible that 17 million people in the UK are racists, xenophobes or right-wing lunatics.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

Here is 3 reasons to be against the single market.

 

By staying in the single market it ensures that the UK remains under the control of Brussels, under the jurisdiction of the ECJ and keeps the UK pumping £ Billions into the EU.

 

These seem like legitimate reasons for being against the single market.

 

Perhaps you would like to stump up a contribution to the £12 Billion a year, less rebate that it costs the UK to allow you to access those 500 million people ?

Membership costs us 0.4% of GDP. Well worth it IMO

 

I also think that by enforcing minimum standards of workers rights, environmental protection and animal husbandry a level playing field is established, that is good for all of us and we get to participate in the decision making

Edited July 10, 2018 by Grouse

[CG1 Blue]

10 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Do you seriously believe that everyone that voted to leave had heard or read what DC stated, understood what DC stated and recognised the consequences of what DC stated?

To be fair there were probably just as many Remain voters who didn't hear (or understand) all the arguments, or were taken in by lies.

 

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Membership costs us 0.4% of GDP. Well worth it IMO

How about trying one that is on topic ? 

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

To be fair there were probably just as many Remain voters who didn't hear (or understand) all the arguments, or were taken in by lies.

 

No No No

 

They are all highly educated, in high powered jobs and knew exactly what they were voting for ??

[CG1 Blue]

4 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

No No No

 

They are all highly educated, in high powered jobs and knew exactly what they were voting for ??

Exactly!  Just like my friend's daughter who voted Remain because she likes going on holiday to Magaluf

[Grouse]

22 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Only 2 things on the ballot paper.

 

Vote leave 

 

Or 

 

Vote remain

 

More chose to vote leave, regardless of what they had read, understood or thought might happen.

 

And as most leavers were over 45, it can be assumed that they at least had some idea of what they were voting for.

 

Contrary to what most remainers trot out. It is impossible that 17 million people in the UK are racists, xenophobes or right-wing lunatics.

I'll bet most of them are ?

[Grouse]

16 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

How about trying one that is on topic ? 

I was responding to your comment about sending billions to Brussels. What do you mean?

[kwilco]

3 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Grouse I wished to leave the Single Market and Customs Union. I also listened too and watch David Cameron on various occasions, promise that if a vote leave won. Yes i know prime ministers lie, as we have one now.

 

I personally believe  and still do (we disagree on this as we discussed it in 2016) that the UK can do better on its own away from the constraints of the EU. From your own admission the EU isn't perfect. I would go further and the EU actually is holding back the UK and its economy. I know we see it differently.

This post shows that Brexiteers don't have and never will have a grasp of the intricacies or even the basics of EU membership.

I think that one has to realise that most of these people's thinking is on a par with flat-earthers and any attempt to engage them in rational argument is a complete waste of time...... ridicule is the only available option.....did they seriously think, that all leave voters had any idea what they werereally voting for, let alone the same idea?

It's like herding cats with a tin of katomeat; they all follow the smell but if you put down the plate they squabble he'll over who's going to eat it.

[kwilco]

28 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Exactly!  Just like my friend's daughter who voted Remain because she likes going on holiday to Magaluf

It take it you objected to that and voted leave?

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, kwilco said:

This post shows that Brexiteers don't have and never will have a grasp of the intricacies or even the basics of EU membership.

I think that one has to realise that most of these people's thinking is on a par with flat-earthers and any attempt to engage them in rational argument is a complete waste of time...... ridicule is the only available option.....did they seriously think, that all leave voters had any idea what they werereally voting for, let alone the same idea?

It's like herding cats with a tin of katomeat; they all follow the smell but if you put down the plate they squabble he'll over who's going to eat it.

Why are you bothering to comment on this thread if you have determined that engagement with Brexiteers is a waste of time? 

[Chomper Higgot]

48 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Only 2 things on the ballot paper.

 

Vote leave 

 

Or 

 

Vote remain

 

More chose to vote leave, regardless of what they had read, understood or thought might happen.

 

And as most leavers were over 45, it can be assumed that they at least had some idea of what they were voting for.

 

Contrary to what most remainers trot out. It is impossible that 17 million people in the UK are racists, xenophobes or right-wing lunatics.

“Contrary to what most remainers trot out. It is impossible that 17 million people in the UK are racists, xenophobes or right-wing lunatics.”

 

Does anybody actually make such a claim or is that another Renegade Strawman?

 

The claim I hear, and have made myself, is  racist, xenophobes and extreme right wingers voted Leave, they did not vote Remain.

 

The argument is therefore those who voted Remain did so with racist, xenophobes and extreme right wingers.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2018 by Chomper Higgot