Put your cards on the table, EU makes last Brexit call to Britain

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

What we have in the UK now is very different from what you describe. I hate to repeat myself, but my neighbour recently took the cheapest quote for some garden landscaping. One guy was in charge of 8 Romanians (who all share a caravan), and the job they did was awful.  They were all farmers. I actually overheard the guy leading them teaching them how to mix cement.

My neighbour regrets taking the cheap quote now, because of the shoddy workmanship and the length of time it took.

 

Who benefits from this? (apart from the Romanians' wives back on the farm in Sud Muntenia)

Your mate’s an idiot.

 

So let’s quit the EU.

[melvinmelvin]

14 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Just because other countries suffer as a result of the EU FOM policy, it doesn't mean the UK has to continue suffering too. Once we have left we can implement a skills based immigration policy.

 

yes, quite right you are, she can, but will it ever happen?

I think very firmly no  you may, of course, think very firmly differently

 

cheap Poles are in UK to stay is my view, but by all means - might be wrong here

 

you know

if you look back a few years; there are things that surfaced in the society that probably should not or did not have to surface

but once there - it never disappears

 

Edited July 18, 2018 by melvinmelvin

[nontabury]

50 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

Not concern me?

As I stated above - several countries in Europe experience the same

The problems described are not unique to UK.

 

 

Or do you move that it should be the exclusive right of UK citizenship holders to comment on UK and Brexit related issues?

(is there a smell of brown political attitudes here?)

No concern to me, Brexit and associated problems? Do you think UK is an isolated island in Europe

or are you quite simply politically brown and want to dictate who should be concerned and not be concerned?

 

If it amuses you I can easily avoid dropping comments inn this thread, no sweat.

 

 Sorry? I did’t realise you're a none U.K citizen, this explains your points of veiw.

 Strangely this and similar threads do attract many none Brits, who are very concerned,should we leave the hated E.U. I cannot possible think why.555

 Regarding commenting on other countries, I tend to think it’s not my business, what other countries do, it’s up to their citizens. 

 

 

 

[bristolboy]

5 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

 Sorry? I did’t realise you're a none U.K citizen, this explains your points of veiw.

 Strangely this and similar threads do attract many none Brits, who are very concerned,should we leave the hated E.U. I cannot possible think why.555

 Regarding commenting on other countries, I tend to think it’s not my business, what other countries do, it’s up to their citizens. 

 

 

 

If no other or a negligible quantity of UK citizens agreed with his point of view, then your point could be valid. But that is clearly not the case. Also, given that there are  is at least 1 prolific Brexiteer on this thread who claims that UK industry can do without J.I.T. or that the industry in the  UK can duplicate all products currently produced overseas and do without imports altogether, (and no Brexiteers to contradict him!), it's clear it's best to stick to the validity of the arguments rather than the national identity of the parties contributing to this thread. The quality of one's knowledge and thinking do not depend on one's nationality.

[CG1 Blue]

35 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

yes, quite right you are, she can, but will it ever happen?

I think very firmly no  you may, of course, think very firmly differently

 

cheap Poles are in UK to stay is my view, but by all means - might be wrong here

 

you know

if you look back a few years; there are things that surfaced in the society that probably should not or did not have to surface

but once there - it never disappears

 

I think after Brexit, once things have settled down and a few years have passed, those migrants who came here to settle and add value to the UK economy will do just that. Perhaps even the more committed Eastern Europeans who originally came offering low skilled cheap labour will have become skilled, and will be charging the going rate (check the effect of upskilling workforces in India for outsourcing).

 

Those who pop over to make a few quid to buy another cow for the farm back home while putting skilled tradesman out of work will no longer be able to do so.  

[melvinmelvin]

30 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

 Sorry? I did’t realise you're a none U.K citizen, this explains your points of veiw.

 Strangely this and similar threads do attract many none Brits, who are very concerned,should we leave the hated E.U. I cannot possible think why.555

 Regarding commenting on other countries, I tend to think it’s not my business, what other countries do, it’s up to their citizens. 

 

 

 

 

5

 

a few issues here;

 

- No man is an island - don't lose sight of that

 

- Brexit is one of the more interesting political developments in Europe for years, beats abortion in Ireland easily

 

- Developments within UK and between UK and EU are very closely followed by others

 

- UK  is a significant country in Europe, what takes place with UK affects the rest of Europe

 

- What takes place in other countries is their business and not mine? - fair enough

  still, Europe (not least the UK) has the impertinence to comment on Trump and his doings within and outside US

  and even commenting on Kim in upper Korea

 

- Non UKers engaging in Brexit shows that they care - should not be dismissed

 

- it is presently unclear what UK wants - should she think in direction of EFTA (and EEA) a small handful of other countries

  would be directly affected

 

- again - no man is an island, at least not in Europe today

 

 

-

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Your mate’s an idiot.

 

So let’s quit the EU.

Thanks for the valuable contribution.

Btw, what's with this use of the laughing 'like' ? on every post you disagree with? Is it some sort of therapy?

Edited July 18, 2018 by CG1 Blue

[melvinmelvin]

the laughing emoticon?

 

means

 

a) be relaxed and open minded - learn to laugh of your mistakes

 

b) what a ridiculoius comment'

 

c) ha!  that was a funny comment

 

have your pick

 

 

sorry - tired now - must sleep - good night

 

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

50 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

a few issues here;

 

- No man is an island - don't lose sight of that

 

- Brexit is one of the more interesting political developments in Europe for years, beats abortion in Ireland easily

 

- Developments within UK and between UK and EU are very closely followed by others

 

- UK  is a significant country in Europe, what takes place with UK affects the rest of Europe

 

- What takes place in other countries is their business and not mine? - fair enough

  still, Europe (not least the UK) has the impertinence to comment on Trump and his doings within and outside US

  and even commenting on Kim in upper Korea

 

- Non UKers engaging in Brexit shows that they care - should not be dismissed

 

- it is presently unclear what UK wants - should she think in direction of EFTA (and EEA) a small handful of other countries

  would be directly affected

 

- again - no man is an island, at least not in Europe today

 

 

-

I take my hat off to you for a fine response to this tricky question. Most people have shied away from answering, or gone into defense/aggression mode.

 

I particularly like these bits:

 

- UK  is a significant country in Europe, what takes place with UK affects the rest of Europe

- Non UKers engaging in Brexit shows that they care - should not be dismissed

 

Many remainers would have us believe the UK is insignificant, and that the EU / EU members states would be happy to see us simply walk away with no deal.  

 

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

11 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I take my hat off to you for a fine response to this tricky question. Most people have shied away from answering, or gone into defense/aggression mode.

 

I particularly like these bits:

 

- UK  is a significant country in Europe, what takes place with UK affects the rest of Europe

- Non UKers engaging in Brexit shows that they care - should not be dismissed

 

Many remainers would have us believe the UK is insignificant, and that the EU / EU members states would be happy to see us simply walk away with no deal.  

 

 

 

 

Many Remainers are looking at the utter chaos that has resulted in what was billed as 'the easiest negotiations in human history' and drawing the conclusion that the post Brexit negotiations for trade deals are going to be an even bigger farce. 

 

But what do Brexiteers care, their bravery in the face of other people losing their jobs it's to be admired.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[tebee]

2 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

Just because other countries suffer as a result of the EU FOM policy, it doesn't mean the UK has to continue suffering too. Once we have left we can implement a skills based immigration policy.

The problem about ending FOM to protect UK jobs is that there are about 2,800,000 UK jobs that depend on FOM and/or the single market to exist. There are also 1.5 million UK citizens in Europe (inc me!) who really on FOM  to live and work.

 

So you might stop a few dodgy Polish builders coming here, but you'll kill a good number of other people's jobs in the process !

[CG1 Blue]

11 minutes ago, tebee said:

The problem about ending FOM to protect UK jobs is that there are about 2,800,000 UK jobs that depend on FOM and/or the single market to exist. There are also 1.5 million UK citizens in Europe (inc me!) who really on FOM  to live and work.

 

So you might stop a few dodgy Polish builders coming here, but you'll kill a good number of other people's jobs in the process !

As I understand it the UK government already addressed this concern with the ‘settled status’ solution.  I would assume the EU (the great institution that it is ?) would offer similar for UK citizens abroad.

[tebee]

36 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

As I understand it the UK government already addressed this concern with the ‘settled status’ solution.  I would assume the EU (the great institution that it is ?) would offer similar for UK citizens abroad.

For the 3.5 million EU citizens in the UK and the 1.5 UK in EU there is still not a confirmed solution. The proposed solution is very bad for many of the UK in Europe as they will only get the right to live and work in the country of current residence, not the whole of the EU. There are a good number of freelancers and consultants to whom  this is an important distinction. ( I used to be one - left UK when government introduced IR35)

 

No deal could mean there is no deal on this too!

 

Still nothing to address the estimated  2.8 million UK jobs that depend on the single market and FOM to function and will be lost in the event of no deal.

[nontabury]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

For the 3.5 million EU citizens in the UK and the 1.5 UK in EU there is still not a confirmed solution. The proposed solution is very bad for many of the UK in Europe as they will only get the right to live and work in the country of current residence, not the whole of the EU. There are a good number of freelancers and consultants to whom  this is an important distinction. ( I used to be one - left UK when government introduced IR35)

 

No deal could mean there is no deal on this too!

 

Still nothing to address the estimated  2.8 million UK jobs that depend on the single market and FOM to function and will be lost in the event of no deal.

According to remoaners, the vast majority of those 1.5 U.K citizens in the E.U are pensioners residing in Spain. This leaves a number of freelancer. O.K. They are far more important than the millions of U.K workers who are being effected by the continuous influx of cheap Eastern European labour. Typical selfish remain supporter.

[tebee]

1 minute ago, nontabury said:

According to remoaners, the vast majority of those 1.5 U.K citizens in the E.U are pensioners residing in Spain. This leaves a number of freelancer. O.K. They are far more important than the millions of U.K workers who are being effected by the continuous influx of cheap Eastern European labour. Typical selfish remain supporter.

The problem is that leaving the single market and ending FOM solves the problem of cheap Eastern European labour taking jobs here, but causes another problem for all those people whose existing  jobs in the UK depend on some aspect of of the SM or FOM. The government's own estimate is that with an FTA set up 1.75 million UK jobs will be lost and with no deal 2.8 million jobs will go

[vogie]

14 hours ago, tebee said:

Oddly enough I hear the same thing in France about English builders that come there and undercut them. French artisans produce very fine work but are both expensive and very specialized  - you'll need a different person to tile the walls of your house than the one who tiles the floor.

They resent English general builders coming over and doing more shoddy work much cheaper.

 

Why do you say "I hear," where did you hear this, from Pierre the local rumour spreader, you live there have you got an opinion about British builders (I know you said English),

When I lived in in France I found that the British builders did an excellent job and were not "cheap" it was the French that was rediculously expensive. The Brits had the skills to do anything asked of them unlike, as you rightly said their French counterparts. 

So I think it is unjust to try and compare a Brit builder with a Polish builder, I hear. ?

 

[stephenterry]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

 

Why do you say "I hear," where did you hear this, from Pierre the local rumour spreader, you live there have you got an opinion about British builders (I know you said English),

When I lived in in France I found that the British builders did an excellent job and were not "cheap" it was the French that was rediculously expensive. The Brits had the skills to do anything asked of them unlike, as you rightly said their French counterparts. 

So I think it is unjust to try and compare a Brit builder with a Polish builder, I hear. ?

 

There will be good and bad tradesmen whatever their nationality. Best way to avoid bad workmanship is to visit one of their completed projects, get recommendations or not, as most sensible people would do. Whether it happens in the UK or the EU is neither here nor there.

 

And as we're on the topic, the influx of lower paid workers from the EU, is that British (non) workers on benefits can't be arsed to do to menial jobs like hotel staff jobs and seasonal fruit-pickers - therefore leaving a gap in the labour market. It's called having a 'work ethic' that today's British 'breadline workers' seem to lack (as a generality).

 

If Brexit is going to cause massive  job losses in the UK, for whatever reason, it should be a government concern that needs to be addressed during the negotiations with the EU, something that Johnson and his Brexit cronies of the same ilk, with all their upper-class financial stability and constant blue-sky rhetoric, cannot grasp - or choose to ignore.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2018 by stephenterry
addition to text.

[The Renegade]

Quote

Led by Michel Barnier’s deputy, Sabine Weyand, the EU’s team of officials picked apart the most contentious parts of the paper as it was presented by Olly Robbins, Theresa May’s chief Brexit adviser, leading to increased concerns on both sides that a no-deal scenario is moving from possible to likely.

 

The white paper is not going to form the basis of the negotiations,” one senior EU diplomat told the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/18/eu-assault-on-mays-white-paper-heightens-no-deal-brexit-fears

 

Good. 

 

1. Taxi for May.

 

2. It was presented by Olly Robbins. Where was Raab ? 

 

According to the article, he is currently engaged in preparing for '' No Deal ''

 

Quote

Raab, a former Foreign Office lawyer, met the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Tim Barrow, in Whitehall on Wednesday, and is taking a hands-on approach to “no deal” preparations,

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/18/eu-assault-on-mays-white-paper-heightens-no-deal-brexit-fears

 

It is being reported by remain Central HQ, AKA The Guardian, so it must be true.

[The Renegade]

26 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

And as we're on the topic, the influx of lower paid workers from the EU, is that British (non) workers on benefits can't be arsed to do to menial jobs like hotel staff jobs and seasonal fruit-pickers - therefore leaving a gap in the labour market. It's called having a 'work ethic' that today's British 'breadline workers' seem to lack (as a generality).

The amount of UK workers who are receiving top up wages in the form of '' In work Benefits '' blows a hole right through that argument.

 

Why would employers pay decent wages when:

 

1. There is a constant flow of cheap labour from the continent.

 

2. The idiots that are in Government ( That is both Main Parties ) allow Companies to pay crap wages by handing out '' In work benefits ''

 

There is much wrong with the labour / workforce in the UK. EU cheap labour is only one part of it.

[stephenterry]

No deal preparation.

 

Probably, political brinkmanship is the driving force. I can't see either the UK government or the EU walk away with a no-deal as it would be like cutting off their noses to spite their faces. However, if it came to that, both sides wouldn't ever be flavour of the month for years to come.

 

I sense the UK would have to stand up and deliver on all their promises to the electorate , in a shorter time period than is feasible, which will result in a general election and a new PM who will be charged with sorting out the mess. And a mess it will be  - inevitable consequence of fudging any and everything. 

 

I'll give the UK ten years to haul itself to its feet.

 

  

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

I'll give the UK ten years to haul itself to its feet.

Which is why I have to keep telling tebee in particular.

 

Ignore the short term hysterics from remainers, the outcome of Brexit, whether it be good or bad, will not be known for about a generation.

 

Far too many people using Poundland crystal balls, to come up with garbage.

[stephenterry]

9 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

The amount of UK workers who are receiving top up wages in the form of '' In work Benefits '' blows a hole right through that argument.

 

Why would employers pay decent wages when:

 

1. There is a constant flow of cheap labour from the continent.

 

2. The idiots that are in Government ( That is both Main Parties ) allow Companies to pay crap wages by handing out '' In work benefits ''

 

There is much wrong with the labour / workforce in the UK. EU cheap labour is only one part of it.

Don't disagree, however it's something that needs to be considered and addressed by government during their negotiations. Why should British people consider working when they receive not only in-work benefits but also house rental benefits and every other benefit they can wangle by 'knowing' the system? 

 

One thing for sure, the hardship that Brexit is going to incur will wake-up the electorate  to the reality that it's far worse than ever envisaged.   And the government will wash their hands, and say - well this is what you voted for, so tough-titty.

 

[sandyf]

8 hours ago, tebee said:

The problem is that leaving the single market and ending FOM solves the problem of cheap Eastern European labour taking jobs here, but causes another problem for all those people whose existing  jobs in the UK depend on some aspect of of the SM or FOM. The government's own estimate is that with an FTA set up 1.75 million UK jobs will be lost and with no deal 2.8 million jobs will go

Watch your head on the brick wall, there are those that would have you believe that retraining the industrial sector into vegetables, cleaning and bottle washing is progressive.

[sandyf]

I watched both Chloe Smith and the PM in the House over the electoral report and both used "ongoing investigation" as a get out of jail card. Neither were prepared to respond to any comment regarding ministerial code of conduct.

[tebee]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Watch your head on the brick wall, there are those that would have you believe that retraining the industrial sector into vegetables, cleaning and bottle washing is progressive.

I'm sure that getting rid of all those highly paid manufacturing and finance sector jobs and replacing them with fruit picking ones will do wonder for our GDP and tax base - we either get Corbyn and vast tax hikes or Mogg and even worse austerity.

 

Still I suppose out innovative jam makers will be happy  there is labour to pick the fruit for them.

[bristolboy]

15 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Which is why I have to keep telling tebee in particular.

 

Ignore the short term hysterics from remainers, the outcome of Brexit, whether it be good or bad, will not be known for about a generation.

 

Far too many people using Poundland crystal balls, to come up with garbage.

Maybe you don't do this but most people when they make a decision use the best evidence they can find to predict what the likely outcome of such a decision will be. People who live in denial about supply chains, or think that the UK can drastically reduce imports by creating home grown industries to replace them, are doing exactly the opposite. There is a huge amount of evidence to show that Brexit will be harmful to the UK's economic interests. Maybe Brexiteers think that's worth it. But to deny that is the case is at best due to willful ignorance.

[bristolboy]

16 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

Don't disagree, however it's something that needs to be considered and addressed by government during their negotiations. Why should British people consider working when they receive not only in-work benefits but also house rental benefits and every other benefit they can wangle by 'knowing' the system? 

 

One thing for sure, the hardship that Brexit is going to incur will wake-up the electorate  to the reality that it's far worse than ever envisaged.   And the government will wash their hands, and say - well this is what you voted for, so tough-titty.

 

The conservatives have been engaged in a systematic campaign to slash benefits in order to further their goal of turning the UK benefits system into a duplicate of the American system.

[tebee]

29 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

The amount of UK workers who are receiving top up wages in the form of '' In work Benefits '' blows a hole right through that argument.

 

Why would employers pay decent wages when:

 

1. There is a constant flow of cheap labour from the continent.

 

2. The idiots that are in Government ( That is both Main Parties ) allow Companies to pay crap wages by handing out '' In work benefits ''

 

There is much wrong with the labour / workforce in the UK. EU cheap labour is only one part of it.

This may surprise you, but I actually agree with you for once - there is something fundamentally wrong with an economy where a full time job does not give you enough money to live.

 

The general tax base ends up subsidising employers who don't pay enough - it's a tax on being middle class and a way of reducing unemployment by creating jobs that maybe don't have any economic justification. But those same jobs  are what has sucked in many migrant workers too. Getting rid of the jobs might get rid of the migrants, but would also throw lots of British people out of work.   

[bristolboy]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

This may surprise you, but I actually agree with you for once - there is something fundamentally wrong with an economy where a full time job does not give you enough money to live.

 

The general tax base ends up subsidising employers who don't pay enough - it's a tax on being middle class and a way of reducing unemployment by creating jobs that maybe don't have any economic justification. But those same jobs  are what has sucked in many migrant workers too. Getting rid of the jobs might get rid of the migrants, but would also throw lots of British people out of work.   

Aren't you ignoring the fact that the conservatives have slashed taxes on the wealthy and have been extremely reluctant to crack down on their use of tax havens? There would be less of a burden on the middle class if the conservatives decided to act in their interests for a change.

[The Renegade]

13 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Watch your head on the brick wall, there are those that would have you believe that retraining the industrial sector into vegetables, cleaning and bottle washing is progressive.

The so called progressives would rather stay in the EU, allow unlimited immigration, no need for any training, unlimited supply of cheap labour and consign some aspects of the British population to a life of benefits.

 

The progressives, under Labour from 1997 onwards pushed an agenda that everyone should go to University, get a degree and become CEO's, high flying Corporate Lawyers, Generals and Admirals and did not need to get their hands dirty at the coal face to get there.

 

This is one of the MAIN REASONS that Millennials are now goosed. Why worry ? It was great for Labours unemployment figures.

 

Progressives indeed.