Unhappy with Cell Phone Service Providers

[Toni]

True Move offer a two-year validity SIM. Actually this one is tempting!

http://www.truemove.com/eng/product/package/pre_nan2pee.htm

Must be deceptive information?

THANK YOU! Very useful: a True-shop (Fashion Island) was denying the existence of such a "promotion"! The staff seemed to be informed to ignore as much as possible as it is bringing few Baht. Now I hope they are so nice to give me this without forcing me to change number as I have heard several times from Thai: change of promotion means change of number. I don't know if that is 'true'.

[meemiathai]

The story was was censored! They don't want people reading or talking about this. That tells me something important and informs me that there is more to this story than meets the eye.

Paranoid? I don't think so.

Yes, they censored your "story". They don't want anyone to hear about this huge ring of collusion and extortion that you've uncovered. Paranoid? Maybe you should them?

It is obvious to me when there are competitive market forces dictating pricing and packaging (validity dates being part of the service package).

There was no censorship. The newspapers just chose not to publish your letter. I can only guess at the reasons, but to me it appeared to the rant of an uninformed consumer worried about 145 baht and an issue that affects no one other than a handful of foreigners.

There is no collusion amongst the service providers re: validity dates. Just because they have similar terms and conditions that doesn't prove collusion. Why are airline fares so similar for city-pairs? Collusion? Why does Coke and Pepsi cost about the same? Why does Coke cost the same at Family Mart and 7-11? Let me guess, collusion.

The OP still fails to acknowledge that they accepted the terms and conditions of the service, including the "extortionate" validity dates. Only when faced with losing 145 baht did the OP suddenly realize that they had an issue with the terms and conditions.

There is actually less to this "story" than meets the eye. I'd venture to say that this issue affects less than 0.1% of the user base, and none of those are Thai citizens.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

JR to Lomotropo: You actually said "Move along folks, nothing to see here." Do you work for the phone company? Newspapers? That is just what the phone companies and newspapers want the public to think.

You have missed my point and tried to make things personal. This is not about me and 145 baht. It is about possible collusion among powerful corporations. I have tried to make that clear in my posts.

You think that it does not impact Thai citizens when in fact they are the people most affected.

You point out cases where other companies are perhaps engaged in collusion and then apparently dismiss the possiblity that such activity could actually occur and be recognized as illegal in a court of law.

I welcome your responses, but in my view you are way off base.

I think the coke company is extorting money from people too. Actually each time when I want to drink coke, I just want to have a sip, but they only sell them in large bottles or cans, which forces me to drink more than I want at a time. Does anyone know if I can sue them?

You see, Coke and Pepsi are forcing people to pay for more coke than people actually need. I think this is common sense, isn't it?

[JR Texas]

The story was was censored! They don't want people reading or talking about this. That tells me something important and informs me that there is more to this story than meets the eye.

Paranoid? I don't think so.

Yes, they censored your "story". They don't want anyone to hear about this huge ring of collusion and extortion that you've uncovered. Paranoid? Maybe you should them?

It is obvious to me when there are competitive market forces dictating pricing and packaging (validity dates being part of the service package).

There was no censorship. The newspapers just chose not to publish your letter. I can only guess at the reasons, but to me it appeared to the rant of an uninformed consumer worried about 145 baht and an issue that affects no one other than a handful of foreigners.

There is no collusion amongst the service providers re: validity dates. Just because they have similar terms and conditions that doesn't prove collusion. Why are airline fares so similar for city-pairs? Collusion? Why does Coke and Pepsi cost about the same? Why does Coke cost the same at Family Mart and 7-11? Let me guess, collusion.

The OP still fails to acknowledge that they accepted the terms and conditions of the service, including the "extortionate" validity dates. Only when faced with losing 145 baht did the OP suddenly realize that they had an issue with the terms and conditions.

There is actually less to this "story" than meets the eye. I'd venture to say that this issue affects less than 0.1% of the user base, and none of those are Thai citizens.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

JR to Lomotropo: You actually said "Move along folks, nothing to see here." Do you work for the phone company? Newspapers? That is just what the phone companies and newspapers want the public to think.

You have missed my point and tried to make things personal. This is not about me and 145 baht. It is about possible collusion among powerful corporations. I have tried to make that clear in my posts.

You think that it does not impact Thai citizens when in fact they are the people most affected.

You point out cases where other companies are perhaps engaged in collusion and then apparently dismiss the possiblity that such activity could actually occur and be recognized as illegal in a court of law.

I welcome your responses, but in my view you are way off base.

I think the coke company is extorting money from people too. Actually each time when I want to drink coke, I just want to have a sip, but they only sell them in large bottles or cans, which forces me to drink more than I want at a time. Does anyone know if I can sue them?

You see, Coke and Pepsi are forcing people to pay for more coke than people actually need. I think this is common sense, isn't it?

JR Texas: I thought this thread was long since dead Meemiathai. If you are going to reactivate it, at least don't distort my argument.

So, you want to have just a "sip" and not drink it all. Solution: screw the cap back on and put it in the refrigerator and leave it there until you want to have another sip.

As long as corporate big brother does not come to your place and take your Coke or Pepsi back and demand that you pay more money for their return, you are fine.

Unfortunately, the cell phone service providers in Thailand can seize your credits in as little as 3 days under some plans.

Maybe they will reduce the credit seizure period to one hour in the future........"you only have 1 hour to use up your new credits." Please refill......please refill.....please refill.............

Do you get it? I think most of Thailand's cell phone providers have their main headquarters in Bangkok, so just go outside and bow down in that direction....but watch out when you bend over......... :D

[meemiathai]

The story was was censored! They don't want people reading or talking about this. That tells me something important and informs me that there is more to this story than meets the eye.

Paranoid? I don't think so.

Yes, they censored your "story". They don't want anyone to hear about this huge ring of collusion and extortion that you've uncovered. Paranoid? Maybe you should them?

It is obvious to me when there are competitive market forces dictating pricing and packaging (validity dates being part of the service package).

There was no censorship. The newspapers just chose not to publish your letter. I can only guess at the reasons, but to me it appeared to the rant of an uninformed consumer worried about 145 baht and an issue that affects no one other than a handful of foreigners.

There is no collusion amongst the service providers re: validity dates. Just because they have similar terms and conditions that doesn't prove collusion. Why are airline fares so similar for city-pairs? Collusion? Why does Coke and Pepsi cost about the same? Why does Coke cost the same at Family Mart and 7-11? Let me guess, collusion.

The OP still fails to acknowledge that they accepted the terms and conditions of the service, including the "extortionate" validity dates. Only when faced with losing 145 baht did the OP suddenly realize that they had an issue with the terms and conditions.

There is actually less to this "story" than meets the eye. I'd venture to say that this issue affects less than 0.1% of the user base, and none of those are Thai citizens.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

JR to Lomotropo: You actually said "Move along folks, nothing to see here." Do you work for the phone company? Newspapers? That is just what the phone companies and newspapers want the public to think.

You have missed my point and tried to make things personal. This is not about me and 145 baht. It is about possible collusion among powerful corporations. I have tried to make that clear in my posts.

You think that it does not impact Thai citizens when in fact they are the people most affected.

You point out cases where other companies are perhaps engaged in collusion and then apparently dismiss the possiblity that such activity could actually occur and be recognized as illegal in a court of law.

I welcome your responses, but in my view you are way off base.

I think the coke company is extorting money from people too. Actually each time when I want to drink coke, I just want to have a sip, but they only sell them in large bottles or cans, which forces me to drink more than I want at a time. Does anyone know if I can sue them?

You see, Coke and Pepsi are forcing people to pay for more coke than people actually need. I think this is common sense, isn't it?

JR Texas: I thought this thread was long since dead Meemiathai. If you are going to reactivate it, at least don't distort my argument.

So, you want to have just a "sip" and not drink it all. Solution: screw the cap back on and put it in the refrigerator and leave it there until you want to have another sip.

As long as corporate big brother does not come to your place and take your Coke or Pepsi back and demand that you pay more money for their return, you are fine.

Unfortunately, the cell phone service providers in Thailand can seize your credits in as little as 3 days under some plans.

Maybe they will reduce the credit seizure period to one hour in the future........"you only have 1 hour to use up your new credits." Please refill......please refill.....please refill.............

Do you get it? I think most of Thailand's cell phone providers have their main headquarters in Bangkok, so just go outside and bow down in that direction....but watch out when you bend over......... :D

MMT: Does that mean it is OK then for the coke company to sell it in a way like you have to buy 1000 bottles each time and it's easy if you can't drink them in one day. What you need is to just drink one every day and it only takes 3 years to finish them off.

Also the coke company may not come to your house and collect the remaining coke that is left in the refrigerator. But do you know what coke taste like after a day if you have opened the bottle? I tell you what, I just want a sip and the next time I want it will 2 years later. So should I be drinking the same bottle of coke after 2 years? Is there not a time frame as well in this case?

[steveromagnino]

So, you want to have just a "sip" and not drink it all. Solution: screw the cap back on and put it in the refrigerator and leave it there until you want to have another sip.

As long as corporate big brother does not come to your place and take your Coke or Pepsi back and demand that you pay more money for their return, you are fine.

Unfortunately, the cell phone service providers in Thailand can seize your credits in as little as 3 days under some plans.

Unfortunately, you seem to not understand how to put together the analogy.

It is like you buying a coke, then leaving it at McDonalds on the table. McDonalds have to leave that table free for as long as you leave the coke there. What is a reasonable time? In some countries, it seems that 12 months is a reasonable time for a phone, and at McDs, probably something along the lines of 5-10 minutes.

In Thailand, it seems that competition has determined that 1 month is a reasonable time for a (to continue the analogy) small coke, and 12 months for a large one. Few local consumers have a problem with this; none that I know of myself, in fact you are the only person I can recall ever bringing this up.

What right does the cellphone company have (or McDs for that matter) to get rid of the cup/cut off your service and take the credits?

As long as the 'cup' is there, being drunk or not, then the telco must pay for the number to TOT; must maintain a network that has the capacity to be used should you decide to use the number and incur the call centre/billing etc costs that are shared across the customer base; not everyone can be the 'marginal customer' someone must be paying their share of the fixed costs.

So your comments of collusion are tenuous at best, and more likely wrong use of terminology; unless you go and also check True, Hutch and the few other little networks out there, we cannot even be sure that all the operators are even offering the same promotions. Having done, this if you can still claim ALL payment plans only offer 30 days from ALL suppliers, then we should investigate why before slinging insults; all the petrol companies sell for more or less exactly the same price, should we assume they are colluding (a criminal offense) by talking to eachother, or are they more likely engaged in fairly typical oligopolist behaviour?

As a mobile phone customer, I do not see why I should cross subsidise your ability to keep a mobile number open indefinitely without usage; for you to do this incurs certain costs for AIS/DTAC/True and these costs are paid for by someone, most likely me (a post paid contract holder).

As a mobile customer, I would expect that you would read the contract outlining terms and conditions; therefore you are clearly a willing participant to the contract if you signed it. If you feel that 'there is no choice available' and wished to push a class action suit, then you would have to show IMHO:

- that there is a monopoly supplier, and that maintaining credit longer than 30 days is somehow a necessity

- that the monopoly supplier is abusing their market position by not offering longer than 30 days

- that the monopoly supplier is making supernormal profits from such action

(obviously this line of reasoning falls apart since it is not a monopoly supplier situation other than the TOT in issuing numbers and there is no chance you will win suing the govt about the TOT)

- that if there is not a monopoly supplier, that all suppliers in the market have jointly planned and implemented a price fixing scheme (which is illegal)

- that you have proof of meetings and discussions during meetings

- that as a result of these meetings and actions, that a group of consumers were materially affected

- that the terms and conditions that each consumer signed were misleading or were unavoidable due to the necessity of having more than 30 days to maintain the credit

of course the second one is a major claim, and I highly doubt you could show it. Additionally, it would be impossible in either situation to show that any group of consumers were coerced or misled into signing the contract, when it is fairly obvious what the terms are. And it would be very questionable that you could show some requirement or necessity to phone access when a mobile phone isn't even a necessity (unlike say potential action suits for banking, fixed line or similar).

You would also probably have to be an American to even think in terms of class action suits; much of the world has much to learn about law of the class action suit nature. The only class suit I know of, was my rugby uniform at school. 3A - those were the days :-)

Let us know how you get on in your quest DQ. BTW I would be careful with what you say; some of it is questionnable, and might not stand up in a court of law.

Edited March 28, 2007 by steveromagnino

[samran]

by the way JR, competition law in Thailand does not apply to state owned enterprises and government entities, which, I'm afraid, TOT is.

You could try your luck with the NTC, making a complaint to them about AIS say. You'd have to prove that the Thai Competition Act was broken though. This however, is hard to do, as the definition of 'monopoly' has not yet been established properly in Thai law - and does not let a court take into account standard economic tests used in other jursticitions.

You'd have to prove the market power existed first, before you could argue that it was exploited, in the sense that you did not have other options to use mobile networks.

Collusion, as Steve said, is very very diffucult to prove, and has rarely been used as a base for litigation in Trades Practices/Competion law related cases as far as I know.

Regulatory economics week, this week, at Thai Visa.....

[sriracha john]

JR Texas: I thought this thread was long since dead Meemiathai.

yes.... it WAS.....

[naka]

Nothing remotely unusual about this, which is probably why they didn't publish.

You think that providing the service so you can make (or not make) mobile calls is free?? What planet do you live on? The infrastructure is costly to install and run.

If you're really that concerned, get a post-pay mobile (you'll probably need a work permit or at least a Thai friend / wife to get it for you) some very competitive (but not free) plans about.

BTW my AIS mobile is up to 12 months validity (the maximum) and I don't use it that much.

Not the Maximum. My one-2-call says valid till Mar 09.

Naka.

[JR Texas]

Nothing remotely unusual about this, which is probably why they didn't publish.

You think that providing the service so you can make (or not make) mobile calls is free?? What planet do you live on? The infrastructure is costly to install and run.

If you're really that concerned, get a post-pay mobile (you'll probably need a work permit or at least a Thai friend / wife to get it for you) some very competitive (but not free) plans about.

BTW my AIS mobile is up to 12 months validity (the maximum) and I don't use it that much.

Not the Maximum. My one-2-call says valid till Mar 09.

Naka.

JR Texas: It surprises me that so many people reading this are absolutely certain that nothing is wrong and that no collusion and/or extortion is taking place.

Let me emphasize that you may be correct. But many posters seem to be missing my point and defending the corporate giants using twisted logic (one poster I am sure is responsible for writing the Chinese instructions for assembling bicycles).

We all spend money on many things. How many times does the person selling you something demand that you must purchase more or lose what you have purchased? Not....lose the service....but lose what you have already purchased? ("You have five minutes to eat that hamburger or I will take it back......the only way you can finish it is to purchase another hamburger.")

Should cell phone service providers make a profit? Yes. Should they be free to set reasonable prices for their services? Yes. Should they be able to introduce a REASONABLE credit seizure period? Yes. But what is reasonable?

Three days? Seven? Thirty? Three months? Twelve months? Reasonable human beings using common sense can determine this. Personally, I think anything less than three months is not reasonable. Three days is clearly not reasonable...at least in my mind.

Collusion? I do not know whether this is happening or not. Did all of the major players decide to adopt the same or almost identical credit seizure plans at the same time (probably some time between 2000 - 2003). Did they decide to cooperate on this issue? I do not know. If they did, what does that mean?

One final comment: I am sure that nothing even remotely resembling collusion or extortion or corruption would ever take place in Thailand......especially among the large corporations. They are really big! Surely they must also be really good! And really honest! Really!

[Maestro]

Topic title changed at OP’s suggestion.

--

Maestro

[Maestro]

Belatedly, I have browsed through this topic and I believe one thing has not yet been mentioned. The cell phone providers operate under a concession from CAT (Communications Authority of Thailand) or TOT (Telephone Organisation of Thailand) or perhaps even both at the same time, and pay fees to these organisations. Some months ago there were reports in the newspapers about a showdown between some providers and CAT or TOT over the concession fees.

I wish I could remember the details but I can’t. I believe one of the issues was that one provider, AIS, had considerably more favourable concession conditions than the others. If I remember correctly, some of these providers were paying not only a percentage – I believe 25% were mentioned – of the gross or net revenue as concession fees to the government but also a fixed fee of 100 Baht per phone number per month. That last fee, the monthly fixed fee, seems incredible and I hope that it is not so, as otherwise my provider would be losing big time on my number.

--

Maestro

[Gary A]

I'm surprised that anyone would get upset about pre-paid mobile phone service here in Thailand. I can't think of a single service OTHER than AIS mobile phone that I am satisfied with. I can go all the way around the country and have reasonably priced service without long distance or any added charges. If you want to talk about rip offs, take a look at Ipstar Internet. MANY places up country have no land lines and we have no choice except Ipstar or GPRS that comes with our phone service at a VERY cheap price.

To talk about poor mobile phone service, you have to look no further than the USA. It's been a few years ago now but I had a plan with T Mobile. If I remember correctly I got 60 minutes per month of talk time and if I didn't use up my 60 minutes it was gone. Not only that but the service was good for the local area. If I went a little too far I had no signal OR I had to have an extra service that allowed me to use another companies towers. That truly SUCKED. I think you should challenge the mobile providers in the USA.

[think_too_mut]

By way of illustration, imagine the following scenario. You purchase six cokes at a local 7-11, take them home and put them in your refrigerator. But you only drink one of the cokes within the next 30 days. After 30 days from the initial purchase you hear a knock on your door. It is a representative of the Coca Cola Corporation. He tells you that he has the legal right to take back the five cokes that you did not drink because you failed to consume them within the past 30 days. He seizes the cokes and tells you that the only way you can get them back is to pay for more cokes.

How would you react if the above scenario actually took place? Would you think that Coca Cola was acting in an illegal manner? Of course you would. And guess what? Cell-phone service providers in Thailand are doing the same thing.

I see why they did not publish the letter. It's (the letter) a nonsense.

Mobile companies pay monthly or for whatever term for using the towers, antennas, rights....That cost is then sliced into small chunks that are sold (at profit) as pre-paid mobile cards.

When the period for which the mobile provider has paid for the network usage expires, they have to pay again. So the cards for that period expire too.

And what would happen if they had a backlog of, say, 30% to carry over? And accummulated over months or years? That's why they tell you how long you have to use up what you paid.

The analogy with the cokes at 7-11 should be then:

You buy 6 cokes and leave them at 7-11's fridge, for which they pay footprint rent, maintenance, electricity, etc.

And they tell you, for the price you have paid, they will keep your cokes for 30 days.

If you don't drink them, they will throw them away or recycle them back into retail.

Now, you show up after 30 days and insist that they keep on cooling your cokes as long as you wish, at their expense.

So, who is in wrong here?

[JR Texas]

By way of illustration, imagine the following scenario. You purchase six cokes at a local 7-11, take them home and put them in your refrigerator. But you only drink one of the cokes within the next 30 days. After 30 days from the initial purchase you hear a knock on your door. It is a representative of the Coca Cola Corporation. He tells you that he has the legal right to take back the five cokes that you did not drink because you failed to consume them within the past 30 days. He seizes the cokes and tells you that the only way you can get them back is to pay for more cokes.

How would you react if the above scenario actually took place? Would you think that Coca Cola was acting in an illegal manner? Of course you would. And guess what? Cell-phone service providers in Thailand are doing the same thing.

I see why they did not publish the letter. It's (the letter) a nonsense.

Mobile companies pay monthly or for whatever term for using the towers, antennas, rights....That cost is then sliced into small chunks that are sold (at profit) as pre-paid mobile cards.

When the period for which the mobile provider has paid for the network usage expires, they have to pay again. So the cards for that period expire too.

And what would happen if they had a backlog of, say, 30% to carry over? And accummulated over months or years? That's why they tell you how long you have to use up what you paid.

The analogy with the cokes at 7-11 should be then:

You buy 6 cokes and leave them at 7-11's fridge, for which they pay footprint rent, maintenance, electricity, etc.

And they tell you, for the price you have paid, they will keep your cokes for 30 days.

If you don't drink them, they will throw them away or recycle them back into retail.

Now, you show up after 30 days and insist that they keep on cooling your cokes as long as you wish, at their expense.

So, who is in wrong here?

JR Texas: I wonder how long it would take for people to get a bit upset with the 3, 7, 30 day credit seizure periods if all businesses (and they all have overhead...not just phone companies) embraced similar policies:

One final example....if you still do not get it or agree, so be it, we agree to disagree:

Exxon: "Sorry, Mr. Think Too Much, you did not drive far enough within the specified time period and use enough gas.......you must return to the station so that we can remove 10 gallons from your tank. We will return them to you only after you have paid for 15 more gallons."

That is it for me.........it is all about what we believe is reasonable and fair.

[65Craig]

"I am very busy doing HIV/AIDS research and do not have the time to pursue this." - JR Texas

65 CRAIG: For someone so 'busy' you seem to have a lot of time on your hands to write so many lengthy posts on this subject. As mentioned before, there are tons of plans and services to match your needs here in Thailand. You may need a Thai person to help you with the latest promotions, but a little leg work could go a long way. Plus, I don't have a lot of pitty for people who sign into a contract blindly and then complain when the policy of a plan/company is in front of you in black and white (which seems to be your case). Anyway, I'm from California, and my experiences with mobile phone companies have a been a dream here in Thailand when comparing them with the choices I have back home.

I'm also not feeling your analogies of Coke and McDonalds. I believe another poster may have touched on this, but do you really feel if you go into a McDonalds and buy 1 hamurger you have an indefinite time to eat it there? I see this problem all the time at Starbucks back home where people set up office and milk a cup of coffee for hours and hours taking up a whole table with their computer, briefcase, etc. They buy about 3 cups of coffee a day and basically have free office space (free wi-fi too). The way I see it, Thailand would run into major problems with available mobile numbers if they didn't have certain policies in place for the cheaper plans. Imagine every farang coming to Thailand buying a sim card, then loading it up with about 300 baht. When they leave in a few weeks still have a few baht on the card. Should that number be allowed to be open for a few months, a year, indefinitely? I don't think so!!! I think those who plan on staying here a long time and are reasonably intelligent will look around and find a plan that fits their need and timetable. Once again, grab one of your Thai friends and go shopping, you will find there are tons of plans available.

[JR Texas]

"I am very busy doing HIV/AIDS research and do not have the time to pursue this." - JR Texas

65 CRAIG: For someone so 'busy' you seem to have a lot of time on your hands to write so many lengthy posts on this subject. As mentioned before, there are tons of plans and services to match your needs here in Thailand. You may need a Thai person to help you with the latest promotions, but a little leg work could go a long way. Plus, I don't have a lot of pitty for people who sign into a contract blindly and then complain when the policy of a plan/company is in front of you in black and white (which seems to be your case). Anyway, I'm from California, and my experiences with mobile phone companies have a been a dream here in Thailand when comparing them with the choices I have back home.

I'm also not feeling your analogies of Coke and McDonalds. I believe another poster may have touched on this, but do you really feel if you go into a McDonalds and buy 1 hamurger you have an indefinite time to eat it there? I see this problem all the time at Starbucks back home where people set up office and milk a cup of coffee for hours and hours taking up a whole table with their computer, briefcase, etc. They buy about 3 cups of coffee a day and basically have free office space (free wi-fi too). The way I see it, Thailand would run into major problems with available mobile numbers if they didn't have certain policies in place for the cheaper plans. Imagine every farang coming to Thailand buying a sim card, then loading it up with about 300 baht. When they leave in a few weeks still have a few baht on the card. Should that number be allowed to be open for a few months, a year, indefinitely? I don't think so!!! I think those who plan on staying here a long time and are reasonably intelligent will look around and find a plan that fits their need and timetable. Once again, grab one of your Thai friends and go shopping, you will find there are tons of plans available.

JR Texas to 65 Craig: I do not appreciate what you just did.......totally out of line. This thread was dead a long time ago........some person decided to add more to it the other day. I decided to make a few more comments.

It is clear to me that you are not understanding what I am saying. I have never said that other plans do not exist. I am on one of those "other plans."

I am sure if all other businesses starting doing the same thing as the cell phone companies, you would grasp my meaning in a hurry and so would the other people who are trying very hard to make the cell phone companies look good.

The credit seizure policies are hurting the poor, not the rich.

You can misinterpret what I have said or insult me or try to degrade me or whatever........I am finished with this thread.

[65Craig]

'thread was dead a long time ago'

65 Craig to JR Texas: Jai Yen Yen!!! Sorry you took offense. Not sure how I was supposed to know this 'thread was dead a long time ago' I mean 13 posts were made in the last two days (some by you). Doesn't seem like a dead post to me. Maybe if you want it to be dead, no response would be more appropriate in the future. Well I certainly don't feel alone as it seems most of us have misinterpreted you.

[meemiathai]

And people say face is everything in thai culture? But we now see a very good example of a farang not capable of dealing with losing face.

JR, I would have respected you more if you are being more honest and can admit what is what.

Why the fear to admitting being wrong?

I admit I was wrong agreeing with your first post in this thread. But I was soon educated by other members' posts such as lomatopo's and steveromagnino's.