Unhappy with Cell Phone Service Providers

[JR Texas]

I wonder what amount of money you must pay DTAC to get 12 months credit seizure free service.

The fact is (or at least I think it is a fact), not one service provider in Thailand allows you to purchase a small amount of phone credits and be free of credit seizure for 12 months from purchase (or even 3 months). Why? Collusion?

In China you can purchase the equivalent of 100 baht in phone credits and be free from credit seizure for 12 months.

Question for you: why then is a 12 month period free of credit seizure any less "extortion" than a thirty day period? You still paid for the phone credits, they're still seizing them. Seems like it's simply an arbitrarily appealing amount of time (to you). What if I don't want to drink those cans of Coke until thirteen months after I purchased them...?

JR Texas to Ovenman: Maybe Einstein could return from the dead and answer your question with a "time is relative" answer.

What is appropriate, in terms of time, is applied differently depending on circumstances (e.g., first time for sex; first time for marriage; minimum age to be eligible for the presidency in USA; cell phone credit validity period, etc).

Common sense informs us what is and what is not a reasonable time period. I did not demand a 2, 5, 10, or even 50 year credit free seizure period because most people would have considered that to be an unreasonable demand.

I believe your question, while valid, is easily answered using common sense and best answered in a court of law.

[ovenman]

Common sense informs us what is and what is not a reasonable time period. I did not demand a 2, 5, 10, or even 50 year credit free seizure period because most people would have considered that to be an unreasonable demand.

I believe your question, while valid, is easily answered using common sense and best answered in a court of law.

Not necessarily. The prepaid service that I now use in India, Airtel, offers what they call a lifetime validity period. They never seize your remaining credits, within reason. Airtel defines lifetime as being the period during which their license to operate granted by the Indian government remains valid. In Airtel's case this is a period of almost twenty years. Ostensibily their operating license will be further extended, as will my prepaid phone number. The only catch is that one needs to use their number at least once every six months for the number to remain active (either receiving/making a call or a recharge). Consider that to be a pulse check of sorts.

[thai_narak]

I'm using SIM "apple" from DTAC. The validity is 1 year from the time you load no matter how much. The only problem is that it has no international roaming.

[sriracha john]

This is an easy one to get around. I use 300bt recharges and recharge before I run out and before the 30 days. Do this a few times and you will find yourself with some months of time available. Whatever amount I have on my phone is now valid till November 2007. Cheers

Likewise... a little here and a little there... and now have DTAC pre-paid valid up til February 2008. Seems like much ado about not much... and not surprising that neither paper printed the letter. Is it "censorship?" I don't think so; more likely it just got tossed in the "unimportant bin." I imagine both papers receive a fair size bundle of these on a daily basis.

Edited February 5, 2007 by sriracha john

[Thaddeus]

If any provider in Thailand made the "Hey! Switch to us and we'll give you 12 months." promise, I would switch instantly .... I suspect I wouldn't be alone, and not just JR.

So why haven't you switched?

There are (or at least have been) prepaid plans where you automatically get 12 months. I use DTAC and get 12 months validity credit when i top-up irrespective of the amount. I don't know if the plan I use is still open for new subscribers, but it was six months ago. If you do your homework and follow the market, sooner or later you will be able to find a plan that fits your needs.

Sophon

I haven't switched to DTAC for a couple of reasons, one of them is as JR points out, to get 12 months you need to put a fair amount of credit down, more than I would probably use in a year ( I have no friends, I rarely call people ) The second reason is, you need to do some research on where I live. I spend most of my time in the village, there is no DTAC signal here. As I said, I don't use the mobile that much, but when I do need it, I'd rather like it to work

[lomatopo]

The story was was censored! They don't want people reading or talking about this. That tells me something important and informs me that there is more to this story than meets the eye.

Paranoid? I don't think so.

Yes, they censored your "story". They don't want anyone to hear about this huge ring of collusion and extortion that you've uncovered. Paranoid? Maybe you should them?

It is obvious to me when there are competitive market forces dictating pricing and packaging (validity dates being part of the service package).

There was no censorship. The newspapers just chose not to publish your letter. I can only guess at the reasons, but to me it appeared to the rant of an uninformed consumer worried about 145 baht and an issue that affects no one other than a handful of foreigners.

There is no collusion amongst the service providers re: validity dates. Just because they have similar terms and conditions that doesn't prove collusion. Why are airline fares so similar for city-pairs? Collusion? Why does Coke and Pepsi cost about the same? Why does Coke cost the same at Family Mart and 7-11? Let me guess, collusion.

The OP still fails to acknowledge that they accepted the terms and conditions of the service, including the "extortionate" validity dates. Only when faced with losing 145 baht did the OP suddenly realize that they had an issue with the terms and conditions.

There is actually less to this "story" than meets the eye. I'd venture to say that this issue affects less than 0.1% of the user base, and none of those are Thai citizens.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

Edited February 5, 2007 by lomatopo

[JR Texas]

The story was was censored! They don't want people reading or talking about this. That tells me something important and informs me that there is more to this story than meets the eye.

Paranoid? I don't think so.

Yes, they censored your "story". They don't want anyone to hear about this huge ring of collusion and extortion that you've uncovered. Paranoid? Maybe you should them?

It is obvious to me when there are competitive market forces dictating pricing and packaging (validity dates being part of the service package).

There was no censorship. The newspapers just chose not to publish your letter. I can only guess at the reasons, but to me it appeared to the rant of an uninformed consumer worried about 145 baht and an issue that affects no one other than a handful of foreigners.

There is no collusion amongst the service providers re: validity dates. Just because they have similar terms and conditions that doesn't prove collusion. Why are airline fares so similar for city-pairs? Collusion? Why does Coke and Pepsi cost about the same? Why does Coke cost the same at Family Mart and 7-11? Let me guess, collusion.

The OP still fails to acknowledge that they accepted the terms and conditions of the service, including the "extortionate" validity dates. Only when faced with losing 145 baht did the OP suddenly realize that they had an issue with the terms and conditions.

There is actually less to this "story" than meets the eye. I'd venture to say that this issue affects less than 0.1% of the user base, and none of those are Thai citizens.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

JR to Lomotropo: You actually said "Move along folks, nothing to see here." Do you work for the phone company? Newspapers? That is just what the phone companies and newspapers want the public to think.

You have missed my point and tried to make things personal. This is not about me and 145 baht. It is about possible collusion among powerful corporations. I have tried to make that clear in my posts.

You think that it does not impact Thai citizens when in fact they are the people most affected.

You point out cases where other companies are perhaps engaged in collusion and then apparently dismiss the possiblity that such activity could actually occur and be recognized as illegal in a court of law.

I welcome your responses, but in my view you are way off base.

[Thaddeus]

I welcome your responses, but in my view you are way off base.

Agreed.

Thais are affected by this, rural Thais especially..... it is impossible to get a land line here, so you are 'forced' into having a mobile (don't come back with "nobody is forcing anyone to do anything", as once you are hooked, you stay hooked) then they are forced into an unfair pricing system, as the only fair pricing system is outside their price range.

Pepsi and Coke are priced the same, great, that has more to do with production costs and the fact that a price war benefits nobody, the same goes for the airlines.

Mobile phone charges could be the same, but it smacks of something else.

[simon43]

Jeeze, this thread is about nothing!!! Mods should close it for wasting bandwidth.....

Simon

[JR Texas]

Jeeze, this thread is about nothing!!! Mods should close it for wasting bandwidth.....

Simon

JR Texas to Simon: You and Lomotropo seem to want to stop people from thinking and/or talking about this subject.

Do you work for the cell phone companies? Do you own stock in them? Does the subject matter disturb you? Do you like getting screwed by large corporations? :D

You can agree or disagree. But, in this case, calling for the MODS to shut down this thread is not appropriate. The topic is legitimate and so is my opinion and the opinion of others....including your opinions.

This thread is most definitely about something worth talking about.

[simon43]

This topic IS about nothing! This is not a monopoly situation. You can take your choice of 3 or 4 different mobile networks, all who offer a different range of tariffs and conditions of service. If none of those conditions meets your satisfaction, then don't use the service.

To try to compare this scenario to other countries is nonsensical - this is Thailand - like it or lump it

Simon

[JR Texas]

This topic IS about nothing! This is not a monopoly situation. You can take your choice of 3 or 4 different mobile networks, all who offer a different range of tariffs and conditions of service. If none of those conditions meets your satisfaction, then don't use the service.

To try to compare this scenario to other countries is nonsensical - this is Thailand - like it or lump it

Simon

JR Texas to Simon: I disagree........I don't think we know at this point is collusion is taking place among the cell phone providers. I think you are misrepresenting the facts when you talk about the range of choices....especially with regard to the credit validity periods. Yes, it is possible not to use their services, but not practical. Is it really wrong to compare cell phone policies in Thailand to other policies in other countries? That seems like an odd position to take. We do this all of the time.......it is how we put things in perspective. Surely Thailand has the right to do what it wants (providing it does not violate international law).

I think it was P.T. Barnum that said, "A sucker is born every minute." Hummmm.....what does that have to do with this thread? :D

[lomatopo]

I think you are misrepresenting the facts when you talk about the range of choices....especially with regard to the credit validity periods.

I think it was P.T. Barnum that said, "A sucker is born every minute." Hummmm.....what does that have to do with this thread? :D

{I believe that quote is mis-attributed. P.T. Barnum actually liked to say that there was a customer born every minute. This makes sense as he was in a business that relied on repeat customers. "A sucker is born every minute...", is attributed to Con Artists referring to the 'mark'.}

No one is mispresenting the facts. Unfortunately you are not willing to listen to reason.

Anyway, I wouldn't call you a sucker, but it's obvious to me that you have absolutely no interest in becoming an informed consumer. If you spent just a tiny fraction of the time you spent chasing your paranoia, you'd quickly determine that there is no collusion among the mobile service providers here in Thailand on the matter of validity dates. I am certain that with just a little work on your part you could find a calling plan, SIM and top-up promotion that fits your requirements, perhaps even one that relieves you of that feeling that you are subject to extortion and that they are out to get you. But you have to do the work and not count on the mobile service providers, or the Bangkok Post, to bail you out.

DTAC/Happy offer their SIMPLE and Muansuen SIM customers 365 days of validity with their first, single top-up for as little as 50 baht.

I have no requirement to check for the similar offers by TrueMove and 1-2-Call but perhaps you do? I think you can easily find 180 day validity dates for 300 baht or less.

DTAC and TrueMove are desperate to increase their user base. They could not do this if they were in collusion with each other and/or 1-2-Call.

I can almost guarantee that no Thai person lets their SIM expire with value on it. I think a lot of foreigners buy SIMs for their stays in Thailand and then leave, without using the full value, so they clearly are affected.

Coke costs the same as Pepsi because of competitive demands of consumers and the efficiency of marketplace. Coke costs the same at FamilyMart and 7-11 for the same reasons. The same is true for any comparable goods or services in a free and open market.

Like I said, move along, nothing to see here.

[JR Texas]

I think you are misrepresenting the facts when you talk about the range of choices....especially with regard to the credit validity periods.

I think it was P.T. Barnum that said, "A sucker is born every minute." Hummmm.....what does that have to do with this thread? :D

{I believe that quote is mis-attributed. P.T. Barnum actually liked to say that there was a customer born every minute. This makes sense as he was in a business that relied on repeat customers. "A sucker is born every minute...", is attributed to Con Artists referring to the 'mark'.}

No one is mispresenting the facts. Unfortunately you are not willing to listen to reason.

Anyway, I wouldn't call you a sucker, but it's obvious to me that you have absolutely no interest in becoming an informed consumer. If you spent just a tiny fraction of the time you spent chasing your paranoia, you'd quickly determine that there is no collusion among the mobile service providers here in Thailand on the matter of validity dates. I am certain that with just a little work on your part you could find a calling plan, SIM and top-up promotion that fits your requirements, perhaps even one that relieves you of that feeling that you are subject to extortion and that they are out to get you. But you have to do the work and not count on the mobile service providers, or the Bangkok Post, to bail you out.

DTAC/Happy offer their SIMPLE and Muansuen SIM customers 365 days of validity with their first, single top-up for as little as 50 baht.

I have no requirement to check for the similar offers by TrueMove and 1-2-Call but perhaps you do? I think you can easily find 180 day validity dates for 300 baht or less.

DTAC and TrueMove are desperate to increase their user base. They could not do this if they were in collusion with each other and/or 1-2-Call.

I can almost guarantee that no Thai person lets their SIM expire with value on it. I think a lot of foreigners buy SIMs for their stays in Thailand and then leave, without using the full value, so they clearly are affected.

Coke costs the same as Pepsi because of competitive demands of consumers and the efficiency of marketplace. Coke costs the same at FamilyMart and 7-11 for the same reasons. The same is true for any comparable goods or services in a free and open market.

Like I said, move along, nothing to see here.

JR Texas to Lomotropo: "There's a sucker born every minute" --P. T. Barnum http://www.worldofquotes.com/author/P.-T.-...um/1/index.html

The good news is that you are free to ignore possible collusion. You are free to present deceptive information that appears to serve your position. You are free to insist on stopping any discussion of this topic. And you are free to bury your head in the sand.

When you finally read about this in the Bangkok Post/Nation, please feel free to respond again. I'm going to contact some people at Thammasat University about this.

I could be wrong, but something really does not seem right. I think collusion is a strong possibility.

[lomatopo]

You are free to present deceptive information that appears to serve your position.

I could be wrong,

Yes, you are wrong. The information I provided regarding DTAC's 365 day validity period for the first, single top up of as little as 50 baht is not deceptive.

* SIMPLE and Muansuen SIM customers who make credit top up will be extended the credit validity period up to 365 days on the next day after topping up.

Is that your only recourse when confronted with information that negates your argument? Accuse the person of lying? Not exactly the sign of a rational discussion.

Is there any information that you will accept?

And thanks for the link to the quote source, where it says "Source: None". Maybe do a little bit more research?

[lomatopo]

True Move offer a two-year validity SIM. Actually this one is tempting!

http://www.truemove.com/eng/product/package/pre_nan2pee.htm

Must be deceptive information?

[lomatopo]

Warning: More Deceptive Information

1-2-Call has a package that gives one year validity...Sawasdee Tua Thai. Get 1 year validity, no matter how much you topup.

http://www.one-2-call.com/One2Call/otc/e/p...ct_tourthai.jsp

Hmmm, it looks to me like they are all colluding by all providing promotional packages with long-term validity dates for very little financial commitment. Dash off those letters-to-the-Editor. Get those Thammasat students working.

[sriracha john]

When you finally read about this in the Bangkok Post/Nation, please feel free to respond again. I'm going to contact some people at Thammasat University about this.

Don Quixote rides again...

[Toni]

I can't say that I disagree with your point of view but this sort of scheme is not out of the ordinary. I have prepaid phone accounts in five other countries and they all work pretty much the same way as do the Thai prepaid accounts. The period of validity varies in accordance with the recharge amount, after which any unused credits become "locked". In India, this can be as little as a few days.

I remember that in Germany were the same rules of "legal" theft of prepaid cell-phone fees until somebody started a court-case and won. Since that day this rule is prohibited.

When those companies want to earn their money they should do this by means of the durance of the call you are making and not creating the most funny "offers" which are free of charge or almost during certain periods and trap one afterwards with confiscating pre-paid fees when they are not used within a certain period! Paying, in my vision, for services or for goods cannot mean, as said by the starter of this topic, that one can loose the paid amount or part of it. Anyway, the federal court in Germany shared the same opinion.

[ovenman]

I can't say that I disagree with your point of view but this sort of scheme is not out of the ordinary. I have prepaid phone accounts in five other countries and they all work pretty much the same way as do the Thai prepaid accounts. The period of validity varies in accordance with the recharge amount, after which any unused credits become "locked". In India, this can be as little as a few days.

I remember that in Germany were the same rules of "legal" theft of prepaid cell-phone fees until somebody started a court-case and won. Since that day this rule is prohibited.

None of the quick checking that I just performed online would lead me to believe that's the case in Germany. The Ortel Mobile SIM appears to be good for six months post-recharge, after which remaining credits are locked. The O2 SIM appears to be good for twelve months post-recharge, after which remaining credits are locked. The Aldi-Talk SIM appears to be good for fourteen months post-recharge, after which remaining credits are locked. I have other examples...

[JR Texas]

I can't say that I disagree with your point of view but this sort of scheme is not out of the ordinary. I have prepaid phone accounts in five other countries and they all work pretty much the same way as do the Thai prepaid accounts. The period of validity varies in accordance with the recharge amount, after which any unused credits become "locked". In India, this can be as little as a few days.

I remember that in Germany were the same rules of "legal" theft of prepaid cell-phone fees until somebody started a court-case and won. Since that day this rule is prohibited.

None of the quick checking that I just performed online would lead me to believe that's the case in Germany. The Ortel Mobile SIM appears to be good for six months post-recharge, after which remaining credits are locked. The O2 SIM appears to be good for twelve months post-recharge, after which remaining credits are locked. The Aldi-Talk SIM appears to be good for fourteen months post-recharge, after which remaining credits are locked. I have other examples...

JR Texas to Ovenman: Thanks for the info. on the much better deals in Germany. 6 months to 14 months free from credit seizure......sounds much better than in Thailand where the big players can seize it after 3 days, 7 days, 14 days, 30 days, etc.

[Sophon]

If any provider in Thailand made the "Hey! Switch to us and we'll give you 12 months." promise, I would switch instantly .... I suspect I wouldn't be alone, and not just JR.

So why haven't you switched?

There are (or at least have been) prepaid plans where you automatically get 12 months. I use DTAC and get 12 months validity credit when i top-up irrespective of the amount. I don't know if the plan I use is still open for new subscribers, but it was six months ago. If you do your homework and follow the market, sooner or later you will be able to find a plan that fits your needs.

Sophon

JR Texas to Sophon: DTAC, with its "Happy credit validity policy," is one of the worst offenders. A class-action lawsuit could possibly be filed against them based on "collusion" and related to violation of the Trade Competition Act (TCA) http://www.apeccp.org.tw/doc/Thailand/Competition/thcom2.htm

I wonder what amount of money you must pay DTAC to get 12 months credit seizure free service.

The fact is (or at least I think it is a fact), not one service provider in Thailand allows you to purchase a small amount of phone credits and be free of credit seizure for 12 months from purchase (or even 3 months). Why? Collusion?

Pure nonsense. You don't seem to have your facts straight which, given the accusations you are throwing around, you really should have.

Happy have many different plans, and the one I am on gives your 12 months validity on any amount, and that includes the 50 baht top-up cards. Every time I top-up the validity is extended until one year from the top-up date.

Before that I was on the regular Happy plan, and received an extra three months validity (on top of whatever extension date I had at the time) when topping up with 200 baht. Even with fairly modest usage you can easily bring your credit validity up to one year, which I believe is the maximum. But since I mostly use the phone to receive calls and only use the phone on holidays, the new plan was better for me (I think it's called 'Freedom' but I'm not sure about that).

Granted, it's not easy to find the right plan, as there are so many different ones to choose from, and they tend to change all the time. Each plan have different characteristics, some have cheap calls but short validity of credit, others the other way round. But if you do your homework your should be able to find a plan, that fits your needs.

Sophon

[endure]

The kind of plans that are available now in Thailand were the norm in the UK when mobile phones first came onto the market. Over time the UK market changed and matured so that prepay plans are now run without 'credit seizure' (how quaint) at all. I suspect that the Thai mobile market will move the same way.

[backflip]

"Extortion: “The act of extorting..."

Well, it's hard to argue with that.

[JR Texas]

"Extortion: “The act of extorting..."

Well, it's hard to argue with that.

JR Texas to Backflip: Thanks for the information? By way of review, this entire thing started with DTAC, over one year ago. I decided to try them out. My first deposit was only 100 baht. I discovered that there was a 30 day credit seizure policy attached to the 100 bath deposit.

I then discovered that there was an even shorter credit seizure time period attached to a 50 bath deposit.

The real issue is whether or not, over the past two years, the major cell phone service providers acted in collusion to introduce short-term/time credit seizure policies. I think they did not have these policies in place two years ago, but I might be wrong.

From what people are saying on this subject, it seems that this issue has already been the subject of lawsuits in Turkey, India, China, UK, and Germany. What is a reasonable credit seizure time period? I think that is is most definitely more than 30 days and is probably closer to 12 months.

I have no more time to pursue this. I hope others do.

[Heng]

[JR Texas]

JR Texas to Heng: Well, maybe just one more post.

As funny as this may seem to you, there are people all over the world who are interested in this subject. They do not approve of extortion and collusion and other types of illegal activity that seem to naturally flow from the actions of corporate monopolies.

Instead of ignoring problems, they chose to speak out against them........to remedy wrongs. This is what democracy is about. It is what responsible people do.

"To sin by silence when we should protest makes cowards out of men."

--Abraham Lincoln

[Heng]

Heng to JR: I was laughing at Backflip's post but you're apparently a little faster on the trigger than I.

Thanks for the extra post.

[sriracha john]

I have no more time to pursue this. I hope others do.

Dejected... Don Quixote solemnly rides off in the moonlight...

[ovenman]

The real issue is whether or not, over the past two years, the major cell phone service providers acted in collusion to introduce short-term/time credit seizure policies. I think they did not have these policies in place two years ago, but I might be wrong.

You are wrong. I bought my first One-2-Call phone in 2001. A thirty day validity period for a 300 day recharge was in place then (with longer validity periods for higher recharge amounts).