Opened Bangkok Bank Account, tried to X-fer from US, trial ACH deposits failed

[wgdanson]

On 7/11/2018 at 10:37 PM, trademarkedTM said:

It's more expensive

Marginally. But it is quick and reliable.

[Pib]

29 minutes ago, trademarkedTM said:

Regarding the 30k ATM, I did try TMB and got a 20k limit, and I know it's not my account, but I will try again.   Thanks!

There's a possibly the particular TMB ATM you are using, especially in the area you are in has the type of customers like farangs who would tend to withdraw large amounts....like 30K....which can cause the ATM to run low of cash to quickly.  And when an ATM runs out a person can get any money from it and that causes customer dissatisfaction,   So TMB in your area has possibly set the max to 20K on those ATMs. 

 

And there is always the chance you have just tried the ATM when it was beginning to run "low" on cash and it automatically downshifted the max amount allowed.....like from 30K to 20K or even lower....even as low a $3K.  All ATMs will downshift like that when being to run low on cash....when like all the 1000 baht notes have been dispensed and now only 500 and/or 100 baht notes are left the ATM.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Pib

[trademarkedTM]

4 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Marginally. But it is quick and reliable.

$25 (Wire fee) vs $100 (TW) on a $10,000 transfer does not seem marginal to me, and a traditional time tested wire transfer is faster and more reliable than a new startup.   

[trademarkedTM]

18 minutes ago, Pib said:

You made a common mistake in using a forex rate like XE.com.  Bankgok Bank, nor any Thai bank, uses the mid market/wholesale forex rate.  The banks use their own rate which includes a market-up on the forex mid market rate....by mark-up I mean they use a slightly lower rate so they can make some profit.

 

Here's how Bangkok Bank converts and applies fees when a foreign currency arrives:

 

Say $8500 actually arrived with no intermediary bank fees...and I'm assuming you did an international transfer to Bangkok Bank's "SWIFT" code, repeat, SWIFT code and you didn't do a domestic wire transfer to their ACH/ABA routing number.

 

Bangkok Bank converts the received foreign currency to baht using their TT Buying Rate in affect at the time.  TT Buying Rate is used for incoming international transfers.  For this morning their TT Buying Rate was 33.20.   

 

- 8500 times 33.20 gives 282,200 baht.  

 

- Now, the bank 0.25% (Bt200 min, Bt500 max) receiving/conversion fee is applied before posting to  your account.  0.25% times 282,200 gives a Bt705.50 fee, however that is rounded down to the "max" fee of Bt500. 

 

- 282,200 minus 500 leaves 281,700 baht which is then posted to your account.  Matches what you got exactly.

 

Their receiving/conversion will not appear anywhere on your ibanking statement/passbook as it was applied before posting to your account which fools many into thinking no fee was applied but indeed it was.   Ditto for those who transfer via the Bangkok Bank NY ACH routing method plus the NY branch fee which is sliced off as the funds flow thru them.

 

 

 

 

Wow very interesting!  What is their average spread on the exchange rate?  It seems relatively small.  

[trademarkedTM]

8 minutes ago, Pib said:

There's a possibly the particular TMB ATM you are using, especially in the area you are in has the type of customers like farangs who would tend to withdraw large amounts....like 30K....which can cause the ATM to run low of cash to quickly.  And when an ATM runs out a person can get any money from it and that causes customer dissatisfaction,   So TMB in your area has possibly set the max to 20K on those ATMs. 

 

And there is always the chance you have just tried the ATM when it was beginning to run "low" on cash and it automatically downshifted the max amount allowed.....like from 30K to 20K or even lower....even as low a $3K.  All ATMs will downshift like that when being to run low on cash....when like all the 1000 baht notes have been dispensed and now only 500 and/or 100 baht notes are left the ATM.

Thanks I'll try some others.  I usually stick to secure areas like Maya or inside the bank itself to avoid skimmers. 

[wgdanson]

13 minutes ago, Pib said:

And when an ATM runs out a person can get any money from it

I think you forgot a 'T

[trademarkedTM]

3 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

I think you forgot a 'T

he probably has one of these terrible new macbook keyboards that's making me go insane

[Pib]

I think you forgot a 'T

Yeah...good catch...typo...fingers ignoring my brain's instructions.

[Thailand J]

4 hours ago, Pib said:

Even though you said you have an International Schwab account were above considered "domestic" wire transfers....that is, transfers to/from U.S. banks, repeat, U.S. banks?   And do you have $100K or more balance with Schwab?   If your answer is yes to both then I can understand the free transfers based purely on the pricing guide wording.

 

Purely based on the wording in their International Brokerage account pricing guide, which appears to be the exact same pricing guide for a U.S. Brokerage account, a person would get three free "domestic" transfer per quarter if having at least a $100K household balance with Schwab.

 

But also on their main webpage there is a note just before they refer a person to their international pricing guide link they say "Waivers may apply" which opens up all kinds of pricing possibilities.

 

http://international.schwab.com/public/international/accounts_products/accounts/brokerage_account

Those transfers in my post #83 were international as I had mentioned in post #78.

I have over $100K as I had also mentioned in previous post.

 

As you can see in the transaction history there were $25 and -$25 entries, meaning the transfers were not without fees but were waived.

 

 

 

 

 

[Pib]

9 hours ago, Pib said:

Comparison between a Transferwise and Bangkok Bank ACH transfers.  Based on exchange rates at Transferwise and Bangkok Bank websites as of 19 July at 10:10am.

 

 

 

And below is a comparison of Transferwise Vs Bangkok Bank ACH Vs SWIFT/Int'l Transfer.  Above was between Transferwsie and Bangkok Bank ACH only.

 

For the SWIFT/Int'l Transfer a correction factor of $25 representing a Sending bank's SWIFT/Int'l Wire fee like the Schwab Int'l Wire fee of $25 which is on the low end of U.S. bank Int'l Wire fees.  The comparison assumes no additional intermediary bank fees are applied which occurs sometimes.     

 

Even using a low end $25 Int'l Wire fee, use of the Int'l Wire method never resulted in the best deal (most baht posting to your Thai bank account considering both exchange rate and all fees) in comparison to the Transferwise or Bangkok Bank ACH methods.

 

Exchange rates used were from the Transferwise and Bangkok  Bank websites as of this morning/19July....just like for the earlier comparison.

 

Edited July 19, 2018 by Pib

[Thailand J]

Another alternative to Bangkok Bank is Vanguard. For an account with a balance over $1,000,000, the swift transfer is free, otherwise it is only $10.

I don't know if you can open an account with Thai address, I know you can change to Thai address after opening an account with a US address.

[Pib]

Outgoing International Wires (a.k.a., SWIFT) are not cheap at most U.S. banks.  Below provides an overview of typical fees....look at the "Foreign Outgoing" column.  And just to add a few well known, big U.S. banks to the list, Schwab is $25 and USAA $45.   I'm sure some banks on the list have reduced or waiver fees for certain premium/high net worth accounts. 

 

And the kicker with Int'l Wires is any Intermediary/Correspondent bank between the Sending and Receiving bank may add a fee.  Example: Bank of America Int'l Wire fee is $45...if an intermediary bank along the way adds say a $20 fee then you got hit with $65 in fees.  

 

Then you still have the Receiving bank "receiving/exchange" fee which is typically 0.25% (Bt200 min, Bt500 max) for Thai banks.  But this receiving fee applies to any type of incoming "international bank-to-bank" transfer such as Int'l Wire/SWIFT/ACH, so a person can't blame that against their Sending bank.   

 

Now, for "peer-to-peer" money sending services like Transferwise there is no Thai bank receiving/exchange fee since the very last leg of the transfer trek is a domestic transfer to your receiving bank from Transferwise's in-country partner(s) whoever that is.  Most money sending services use the bank-to-bank process, but Transferwise is one of the few using the peer-to-peer process which they hype in their advertising.

 

Typical U.S. Bank Int'l Wire (SWIFT) Transfer Sending Fees

https://www.mybanktracker.com/news/wire-transfer-fee-comparison-top-10-us-banks

 

Quote

 

Wire Transfer Fees at Top Banks

Banks	Domestic Incoming	Domestic Outgoing	Foreign Incoming	Foreign Outgoing*
*Foreign outgoing fee is in USD, unless otherwise stated.
Bank of America	$15 (fee waived for Interest Checking and Advantage Plus Preferred Rewards accounts)	$30	$16 (fee waived for Preferred Rewards Platinum and Platinum Honor Tiers accounts)	$45 for USD and $35 for foreign currency
Chase	$15	$35 ($25 for wires initiated online)	$15	$50 ($40 for wires initiated online)
Wells Fargo	$15 (fee waived for Portfolio by Wells Fargo Plus w/ qualifying balances of $250,000 or more)	$30	$16	$40
Citibank	$15 (fee waived for Citigold and Citi Priority accounts)	$35 ($25 for wires initiated online, $17.50 for Citigold and Citi Priority accounts)	$15 (fee waived for Citigold and Citi Priority accounts)	$45 ($35 for wires initiated online, $25 for Citigold and Citi Priority accounts)
U.S. Bank	$20	$30	$25	$50
Capital One	$15 (fee waived for 360 Checking accounts)	$25 (could be up to $40 for 360 Checking accounts)	$15	$50 for USD and $40 for foreign currency
PNC Bank	$15 ($15 additional fee for wires initiated over the phone)	$30 ($15 additional fee for wires initiated over the phone)	$15	$45
TD Bank	$15	$25	$15	$40
BB&T	$15 (additional $3 fund transfer fee)	$25 (additional $3 fund transfer fee)	$18	$65
SunTrust Bank	$15	$25	$30	$50
Citizens Bank	$18 if initiated by mail, $28 if initiated by phone, $26 if initiated by fax, and $30 if initiated online	$30	$12 for USD and $10 for foreign currency**	$35 for USD and $10 for foreign currency
Fifth Third Bank	$15	$30	$15	$50 for foreign currency and $85 for USD
Regions Bank	$15	$25	$18	$45
M&T Bank	$16	$32	$16	$75
BBVA Compass	$15	$30	$15	$45
Santander	$13 (fee waived for Student Value Checking accounts and Premier Plus Checking accounts)	$25	$13	$40
BMO Harris Bank	$0	$25	$0	$45
Discover Bank	$0	$30	$0 (if received in foreign currency, an intermediary bank may charge fee of $20)	$30
AVERAGE	$13	$29	$16	$49

 

 

[Thailand J]

There are no Intermediary/Correspondent bank  charges for my free Vanguard and Schwabs SWIFT transfers. Same amount arrived here. May be US banks need an intermediary bank but big brokerage firms do not..

 

To receive, Malaysian banks charge 5 ringgit, about only $1.25 while Thai banks charge up to 500B which is about $15. This is bank robbery.

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Thailand J

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, Thailand J said:

There are no Intermediary/Correspondent bank  charges for my free Vanguard and Schwabs SWIFT transfers.

 

As I indicated in my prior post here, there seems to be some question about whether Schwab has a policy to offer free international wires for any $100K+ accounts -- in fact, they're denying they do.

 

 

The fact your ledger entry above shows them assessing your account a $25 fee, and then waiving it, suggests perhaps something else is going on with your account.  If that was part of their supposed automatic 3 free wires per quarter for domestic transfers for $100K+ accounts, then arguably, they wouldn't have assessed any fee in the first place against your account.

 

While I think it's great you're getting the wire fees waived, I'd be looking for confirmation from someone else having the same experience before assuming that Schwab is giving free online-initiated international wires to either all international or domestic accounts with $100K balances. They say they are not -- unless one of their brokers who the account holder is working with decides to waive the fee as a perk, or there's some other special situation.

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, Pib said:

Typical U.S. Bank Int'l Wire (SWIFT) Transfer Sending Fees

https://www.mybanktracker.com/news/wire-transfer-fee-comparison-top-10-us-banks

 

thanks Pib for finding and posting that list. Those kinds of lists aren't always accurate as to every detail nor always totally up to date. But regardless, it certainly shows you the trend and typical fees that U.S. banks charge for international wires, and those fees are HIGH! 

[Thailand J]

Yes it would be nice to have confirmation from another member here who has an international Schwab account...one way or another.

Another alternative to Bangkok Bank could be Fidelity, $10 or $15 for wire transfer. I am not sure because i have only been using Vanguard and Schwab.

 Vanguard agents are knowledgeable and professional. Schab agents are...very nice people.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

7 hours ago, Thailand J said:

 Schab agents are...very nice people.

 

Obviously, sometimes they're right. Sometimes they're WRONG.

 

IME, it's usually the front-end phone generic customer service folks at Schwab who tend to get things wrong on the details, and my impression has been those folks aren't necessarily brokers.

 

Whereas, if you end up talking to actual brokers, or in this case, the staff in the Schwab department that specifically handles fund transfers, they seem much more on the ball and accurate purveyors of info.

 

[Thailand J]

so far non of them can explain how an International account holder can get SWIFT foreign transfer fee waived. ?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

18 minutes ago, Thailand J said:

so far non of them can explain how an International account holder can get SWIFT foreign transfer fee waived. ?

 

I thought YOU were going to explain that! 

[Pib]

On 7/18/2018 at 9:06 PM, Pib said:

Regarding time of day arrival ditto for me.  Both my transfers to Bangkok Bank arrived a little after 1400.   For the one transfer to Krungsri Bank it arrived a little after 1330.   

In this thread and/or related thread I said a Transferwise transfer funded from your Debit Card should allow the transfer to complete at least one business day faster.  Well, I did do a transfer using my U.S. Debit Card to fund the transfer....just had to satisfy my curiosity regarding would a transfer funded via Debit Card indeed be faster than funding via ACH Debit (i.e., pull of funds from your bank account).  I received the Debit Card funded transfer in "one" business day compared to "two" business days when funding via ACH Debit.   

 

Since the debit hit my bank account immediately (I checked) just like using your card it in an ATM, there was no time spent on the ACH Debit transaction settlement process which takes at least one business day.  The Transferwise website says it routinely takes 1 to 3 business days depending on various factors like how faster your bank approves the request/sends the funds.  Once the ACH settlement occurs, then your transfer request is funded and Transferwise sends your money to Thailand over the next business day/24 hours.

 

And once again the transfer posted to my Bangkok Bank account a few minutes after 1400...the exact same minute after 400 as the previous two transfers to Bangkok Bank.   So based on the posting time of 4 transfers so far it seems right around 1400, give or take a little, is when Transferwise posts to Thailand bank accounts....at least for transfers from the U.S.   I initiated all 4 transfers around high noon, give or take 2 hours.

 

Since the cost to fund by Debit Card or ACH Debit is the same with Transferwise (0.15%) and if a person only needs to send $1000 or less (the max allowed by Transferwise when funding a USD transfer with your U.S debit card and assuming your card allows up to $1000), it would seem use of a Debit Card would be better since it should allow the transfer to arrive faster.  

 

Edited July 24, 2018 by Pib

[lopburi3]

1 hour ago, Pib said:

it would seem use of a Debit Card would be better since it should allow the transfer to arrive faster.  

You mean except if using a card with foreign transaction fee - which most have?

[Pib]

22 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

You mean except if using a card with foreign transaction fee - which most have?

I'm talking about using your "U.S." debit card to fund the transfer. 

 

Even if the card has a foreign transaction fee when used outside the U.S, when using it to fund your USD to THB transfer there is no foreign transaction fee since Transferwise is charging your account in USD from the U.S.   

[lopburi3]

25 minutes ago, Pib said:

I'm talking about using your "U.S." debit card to fund the transfer. 

Misread as if you were saying better to use card here rather than as source of transfer.  Sorry.

[Pib]

3 hours ago, Pib said:

Since the cost to fund by Debit Card or ACH Debit is the same with Transferwise (0.15%) and if a person only needs to send $1000 or less (the max allowed by Transferwise when funding a USD transfer with your U.S debit card and assuming your card allows up to $1000), it would seem use of a Debit Card would be better since it should allow the transfer to arrive faster.  

 

 

And that $1000 limit by Debit Card seems to "now" be $2000.   I was going to cut and paste the $1000 limit from the Transferwise website which was definitely there a few days ago, but now I cannot find it; I can only find talk of a $2,000 limit. 

 

I also went into my Transferwise account to initiate a transfer and if entering any amount up to $2,000 one of my funding options was Debit Card until I went over $2000 when the Debit Card funding option disappeared.

 

But keep in mind, although Transferwise may allow up to $2,000 debit, if your card-issuing bank only allows $1000 per day when trying to fund the transfer of over $1000 your card-issuing bank would reject the transaction.  Kinda like asking for $1000 from an ATM with a card that only allows $500....you can sure enter $1000 into the ATM but when the ATM tries to get approval the transaction is rejected by your card-issuing bank because it's over your $500 daily limit.

 

 

Edited July 24, 2018 by Pib

[Pib]

 

Partial Snapshot from Transferwise regarding USD "payment" method limits. 

 

Expect most everyone would fund (pay for) the USD to THB transfer via ACH Bank Debit (i.e., pull of funds) or Debit Card....I have circled them below. 

 

https://transferwise.com/help/article/2045210/us-dollar-transfers/which-usd-payment-method-is-best

[Thailand J]

On 7/21/2018 at 1:41 AM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I thought YOU were going to explain that! 

okay..lemme try again...

I still believe that with an account balance of over $100000 in a Schwab  international account, international SWIFT fees were waived, because it doesn't make sense to offer US domestic free wire transfers to oversea investors who can't open US financial accounts . For example, a Schwab account is most likely the only US account an investor in China holds.

Their software automatically waived my fees. Schwabs agents who can't explain why their software does that, are not the ones who wrote the software.There is nothing unusual about my account. I bought and hold low cost index funds and FAANG stocks and do not trade.

 

Anyway there are 3 other  low cost alternatives to Bangkok Bank ACH ( up to $10) that i can think of:

Fidelity at $10-$15

Vanguard at $10

Schwab ATM free .

[jerry921]

Great thread. Thanks to all posters.

 

We've had information on here before about whether, if doing a wire, you want to send Baht or home currency - i.e., which end of the wire is best to have the conversion done on. I've forgotten the conclusion (sorry), can I be reminded? (In other words, you can wire $8500 as the OP did, and get whatever Baht they figure it out to, or you can wire 275,000 Baht and have whatever odd amount deducted from your sending account they come up with.

 

I think this is the same question as asking whether you want Schwab to do the conversion using their spread or whether you want the Thai bank to do the conversion using their spread. But maybe doing it one way incurs more fees than the other, as well. And in other words, I think this is asking who gives a better rate.

 

 

 

[jerry921]

Nobody has mentioned on this thread yet (that I saw) the option of using Bill Pay to send money the NY Bangkok Branch account. Somebody reported on another thread that Bill Pay worked and I was intrigued.

 

It should work from the OP's WFC account as well as Schwab, and I think would get around the ACH issues while costing the same as the ACH method (exchange rate spread plus 200-500 Baht).

 

Banks typically have limits on the size of the transfer using Bill Pay, though. I think my other bank (not Schwab) has a $25k daily limit, so that's the most you could transfer in one shot. And you can only send dollars, not Baht, so there's no flexibility on who does the conversion.

[lopburi3]

Dollar to Baht is normally better done in Thailand - and that is true of almost all currencies.  The better rate will be in Thailand.  In the case of US Dollar it is normally much better.  But you never want to use the Dynamic Currency Conversion offered by some banks as that will be a very poor exchange rate (normally used at ATM as an option or business that presents payment already converted to your home currency when overseas).  

[NancyL]

1 hour ago, jerry921 said:

Nobody has mentioned on this thread yet (that I saw) the option of using Bill Pay to send money the NY Bangkok Branch account. Somebody reported on another thread that Bill Pay worked and I was intrigued.

 

It should work from the OP's WFC account as well as Schwab, and I think would get around the ACH issues while costing the same as the ACH method (exchange rate spread plus 200-500 Baht).

 

Banks typically have limits on the size of the transfer using Bill Pay, though. I think my other bank (not Schwab) has a $25k daily limit, so that's the most you could transfer in one shot. And you can only send dollars, not Baht, so there's no flexibility on who does the conversion.

Yeah, I was the one who did that to a Bangkok Bank account, not my own, as a test to see if the rumor was true about "new" ACH links not being accepted by Bangkok Bank.  So, I made a donation to an organization I'm involved with in Chiang Mai where I knew I'd receive feedback if they received my deposit.  

 

On a Friday evening (Thai time) I set up the organization's Bangkok Bank account as a new payee in my U.S. credit union accounts online bill pay system.  Thank god this credit union will send OTPs via both SMS and email.  Gets around the problem some expats have of U.S. banks not sending SMS OTPs to foreign phone numbers.  Anyway, after setting up the organization's account in my online bill pay, I sent them a donation.  On the following Wednesday, I received an SMS from the Chiang Mai organization that they'd received my donation in their Bangkok Bank account.  They didn't say when, so it may have hit their account on Tuesday.  Anyway, from Friday evening to Tuesday or Wednesday was acceptable in my mind.

 

So, I both confirmed that new ACH links between the U.S. and Bangkok Bank appear to be working AND gave a donation to a worthy organization.

 

There is no reason you can't set up your own Bangkok Bank account as the recipient in a "bill pay".  I didn't do this because I already have our accounts linked using the credit unions "interbank transfer" function.