Cave group to be ordained into monkhood for nine days

[Tchooptip]

3 hours ago, coulson said:

It's not really a fair comparison. You don't have to worship anything in a temple or even take the precepts on entry if you are not Buddhist. You just have to observe the house rules of conduct and are taught to think by yourself, unlike other institutions, that tell you what to think.

Right, but trying to explain that to some members on ThaiVisa  it is a little like forcing a Jewish or Muslin old man to eat pork 

[Khun Paul]

This is Thainess at its best , at their age they will do it because their parents agree. Anything to enhance Buddhism is to be encouraged, unfortunately the only people who gain from this are the Monks monetarily,  the WAT financially the bays may get some education about how to deal with their aslleged trauma, but they seem to be pretty level headed  group of lads, that just need to get back to doing what boys do. 

[Catoni]

16 minutes ago, colinneil said:

As i have already stated, a Christian boy would not volunteer to be a Buddist monk.

If any of the boys refused to go their parents would lose face, so they will go.

Anybody who thinks they are not being forced are living in a dream world.

  Okay.... fine.   Please bring reference or cite.. some proof that the Christian boy is being forced.  

             I was raised Christian... church every Sunday.  But I was free to read about the Greek and Roman gods and goddesses and even attend other denomination churches with my friends if I wished.  I was also reading about Hinduism and Buddhism as a young teen.  I had great curiosity about the world....including religions....  read National Georgraphic cover to cover every month. (Christmas yearly subscription every year from my grandparents.) 

   I'm not sure how well you know that Christian boy.  Please bring reference and/or cite that he is being "forced".  

[tifino]

now that we are not in the Dark Ages

- only the Muslims these days would behead you for jumping the fence

 

 

[colinneil]

1 minute ago, Catoni said:

  Okay.... fine.   Please bring reference or cite.. some proof that the Christian boy is being forced.  

             I was raised Christian... church every Sunday.  But I was free to read about the Greek and Roman gods and goddesses and even attend other denomination churches with my friends if I wished.  I was also reading about Hinduism and Buddhism as a young teen.  I had great curiosity about the world....including religions....  read National Georgraphic cover to cover every month. (Christmas yearly subscription every year from my grandparents.) 

   I'm not sure how well you know that Christian boy.  Please bring reference and/or cite that he is being "forced".  

It is clear that you have no idea about Thailand or Thai ways, or you would stop posting nonsense.

Go back and read cmsallys post # 90 that post sums it up perfectly.

[bluesofa]

3 hours ago, coulson said:

It's not really a fair comparison. You don't have to worship anything in a temple or even take the precepts on entry if you are not Buddhist. You just have to observe the house rules of conduct and are taught to think by yourself, unlike other institutions, that tell you what to think.

I'm genuinely for anyone here being taught to think for themselves.

So how come after probably millions of adolescents that have entered the monkhood over the years, there appear to be so few that can think for themselves?

 

[mok199]

1 hour ago, shackleton said:

 agree this is only the start they will totally  exploited 

you will be reading more of this in the weeks / months ahead

The saddest part of this ,is these boys did nothing to earn this,now they are getting the best of the best and we have members here comparing this to child abuse,and FGM....

[SpokaneAl]

I can only imagine the parade of people with money trees heading for that temple after convincing poor friends, neighbors and relatives to give until it hurts.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[Catoni]

2 minutes ago, colinneil said:

It is clear that you have no idea about Thailand or Thai ways, or you would stop posting nonsense.

Go back and read cmsallys post # 90 that post sums it up perfectly.

     Do you know me ?    You doth presume too much.  I've spent quite a bit of time in Thailand.  The Royal Thai Embassy issued me the O-A visa which I fully qualify for. ...... over two different occasions..  Returning again later this year.......   And guess what !    Two years ago I took Refuge in the Triple Gem and took the Five Precepts at a Khmer Krom Theravada temple with the monks..  

   I'm a follower of the Dhamma-Vinaya.   I would advise you to please try not to assume things about people you know nothing of. 

     Now... I will try one more time... I'll give you another chance...   Please bring reference and/or cite that the Christian boy is being "forced".  

    I'll wait right here....  5555555 ?

[colinneil]

Just now, Catoni said:

     Do you know me ?    You doth presume too much.  I've spent quite a bit of time in Thailand.  The Royal Thai Embassy issued me the O-A visa which I fully qualify for. ...... over two different occasions..  Returning again later this year.......   And guess what !    Two years ago I took Refuge in the Triple Gem and took the Five Precepts at a Khmer Krom Theravada temple with the monks..  

   I'm a follower of the Dhamma-Vinaya.   I would advise you to please try not to assume things about people you know nothing of. 

     Now... I will try one more time... I'll give you another chance...   Please bring reference and/or cite that the Christian boy is being "forced".  

    I'll wait right here....  5555555 ?

When i was at school 1 of my teachers said .... Never argue with a fool as they will only bring you down to their level.

So i wont.

[Catoni]

7 minutes ago, colinneil said:

When i was at school 1 of my teachers said .... Never argue with a fool as they will only bring you down to their level.

So i wont.

    5555 ?   Okay.... bye....  

[dlodratsab]

4 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

Yeah the government is protecting them from the press, but who is going to protect them from the government?

and who is going to protect 'em from the monks ....watch your friends backs lads!

[cmsally]

In theory Buddhism should be "operable" totally on a non monetary level. Would this be possible in Thailand; say for instance if the religion and the money/commercialism were totally separated ; would the religion as it is today be able to continue?

If the "freedom of thought" aspect and "individualist" aspect were at all present, then we would be seeing a diversification and different branches of Buddhism emerging. This is totally not the case.

[DILLIGAD]

A ritual of worship of "supernatural beings". I wonder if it's Superman, Thor or The Hulk !

More like ‘The Joker’


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sfokevin]

These poor kids!... After 9 brutal days without cell service in the cave they are being required submit to another 9 days of deprivation... ?

Edited July 23, 2018 by sfokevin

[africasiaeuro]

Critics may query this attempt to cleanse their spirit. Nine days seems a rather vague attempt to chastify a group of youngsters at that age. Forgotten before it even started.

 

[sfokevin]

“A ritual of worship of supernatural beings in the cave and the resident Phra That Doi Wao spirit would begin at 9am tomorrow”

 

What sort of Bhuddism is this ?... 

[cardinalblue]

It is not an issue of being forced but the culture puts immense pressure doing things collectively even though individuals don't share or agree on what they are told to do...

 

so the Christian boy will have to go along with the group mentality; immense pressure to comply with cultural norms by people in authority - it is expected and individual dissent ion is strongly discouraged if not forbidden....

 

i can cite 9 years of teaching medical students/nurses and medical residents in relationships to their  mentors/senior doctors NOT to think for themselves or voice their opinion if not in agreement....

 

cultural compliance and social harmony is expected and individualism and discord frowned upon. Just not allowed to question authority....

 

really the cause on why critical thinking is absent in this culture....

[bluesofa]

4 minutes ago, sfokevin said:

“A ritual of worship of supernatural beings in the cave and the resident Phra That Doi Wao spirit would begin at 9am tomorrow”

 

What sort of Bhuddism is this ?... 

Thai Buddhism. It's a sort of "pick n' mix" variety.

 

[Tongjaw]

57 minutes ago, colinneil said:

As i have already stated, a Christian boy would not volunteer to be a Buddist monk.

If any of the boys refused to go their parents would lose face, so they will go.

Anybody who thinks they are not being forced are living in a dream world.

colineil, I’ve followed your posts on TV and agreed with probably all of them and had many a laugh too. I thought at first you had gotten out of the wrong side of bed this morning but alas you are serious. 

I have known 2 catholics enter the Buddhist temple. One entered to pay respect to his mother in law who survived cancer and the other was after his wife of 20 years past away. They only did a couple of weeks but said it was very therapeutic mentally for them. 

You cannot state for fact that these boys, Buddhist and Christian are being forced. Do you know for a fact that the Christian boy is a practising Christian or are you guessing? Do you know for fact that a Christian would not volunteer to be a Buddhist monk for 9 days, even if it was only to pay respect for the Buddhist ex Thai seal and many others who put themselves at risk to save his life? Thai boys of all ages enter the monkhood all the time, are they all being forced? If you believe these boys  are being forced then that’s your opinion. If you are saying it as a fact then I would say you are living in a dream world. I have a lot of respect for your posts and comments on TV but I most certainly do not agree with your comments on this subject. 

[wealthychef]

5 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

As far as the Christian boy is concerned it is a little like forcing a Jewish or Muslin kid to eat pork. That's a pretty uncool thing to do to a kid who has already been through a lot.

 

Well, it's better than being raped in school by your teacher and watching them get off scott free. 

Anyhow, more to the point, I believe that 9 days of Buddhist training in meditation and philosophy is not going to do any damage to the kid at all.  And although Christianity is more dogmatic and cult-like than Buddhism, I still think that if you trained/indoctrinated a buddhist kid at Christian camp for 9 days, he's still be OK afterward.  It's not like the CIA is running the monastery.  Probably.  

[Derek B]

4 hours ago, coulson said:

It's not really a fair comparison. You don't have to worship anything in a temple or even take the precepts on entry if you are not Buddhist. You just have to observe the house rules of conduct and are taught to think by yourself, unlike other institutions, that tell you what to think.

Agreed ------- a lesson that more than a few farang should contemplate taking.

 

[Catoni]

7 minutes ago, cmsally said:

In theory Buddhism should be "operable" totally on a non monetary level. Would this be possible in Thailand; say for instance if the religion and the money/commercialism were totally separated ; would the religion as it is today be able to continue?

If the "freedom of thought" aspect and "individualist" aspect were at all present, then we would be seeing a diversification and different branches of Buddhism emerging. This is totally not the case.

    Look around.... there are many branches of Buddhism in the world today.   Even in Thailand there are various smaller "sub-set" "schools" of Buddhism.  Two of the most well known being the Maha Nikaya and the Dhammayuttika Nikaya. There are also a few various "Forest" varieties of Buddhism connected in some cases, but not all, with those two or others.   In many areas, you find local ancient animism spiritualism and/or Hinduism is mixed in with Buddhism....  same to some extent in Myanmar and Laos and Cambodia.    You see that clearly in the blessings at the cave...  

[colinneil]

8 minutes ago, Tongjaw said:

colineil, I’ve followed your posts on TV and agreed with probably all of them and had many a laugh too. I thought at first you had gotten out of the wrong side of bed this morning but alas you are serious. 

I have known 2 catholics enter the Buddhist temple. One entered to pay respect to his mother in law who survived cancer and the other was after his wife of 20 years past away. They only did a couple of weeks but said it was very therapeutic mentally for them. 

You cannot state for fact that these boys, Buddhist and Christian are being forced. Do you know for a fact that the Christian boy is a practising Christian or are you guessing? Do you know for fact that a Christian would not volunteer to be a Buddhist monk for 9 days, even if it was only to pay respect for the Buddhist ex Thai seal and many others who put themselves at risk to save his life? Thai boys of all ages enter the monkhood all the time, are they all being forced? If you believe these boys  are being forced then that’s your opinion. If you are saying it as a fact then I would say you are living in a dream world. I have a lot of respect for your posts and comments on TV but I most certainly do not agree with your comments on this subject. 

Having lived in a hill tribe village where all the people were practicing Christians, i would say yes the boy is a practicing Christian.

Every minute since the boys were brought out of the cave, their actions have been orchestrated by the authorities here.

Why are the boys not being allowed to get back to a normal life?

Because the authorities want them kept in the spotlight, and that is not good for the boys mental/ physical well being.

[fulhamboy]

Being ordained is highly thought of by Thai people, this is a gift,

my TGF son has just been ordained for 4 weeks, most Thai cannot

afford it, it cost me approx 50,000 baht for everything, employers

like to see it on a cv, most parents like a future son to have been 

ordained. 

   

[cmsally]

4 minutes ago, fulhamboy said:

Being ordained is highly thought of by Thai people, this is a gift,

my TGF son has just been ordained for 4 weeks, most Thai cannot

afford it, it cost me approx 50,000 baht for everything, employers

like to see it on a cv, most parents like a future son to have been 

ordained. 

   

Seriously don't know whether to laugh or cry on this one. 50,000 Bt to ordain and the majority of the population is up to their neck in debt.

The wife of one of my employees took out a loan last year so she could make merit on a larger scale at the temple ! Shouldn't need to explain how this is just so wrong!!

[bluesofa]

4 minutes ago, fulhamboy said:

Being ordained is highly thought of by Thai people, this is a gift,

my TGF son has just been ordained for 4 weeks, most Thai cannot

afford it, it cost me approx 50,000 baht for everything, employers

like to see it on a cv, most parents like a future son to have been 

ordained. 

   

Sorry to be harsh:

Religions rely on the gullibility of their believers. The more gullible, the higher the cost to stay in.

 

[wvavin]

It is useless if this "retreat" is not going to make them any smarter in future.

[Tongjaw]

5 minutes ago, colinneil said:

Having lived in a hill tribe village where all the people were practicing Christians, i would say yes the boy is a practicing Christian.

Every minute since the boys were brought out of the cave, their actions have been orchestrated by the authorities here.

Why are the boys not being allowed to get back to a normal life?

Because the authorities want them kept in the spotlight, and that is not good for the boys mental/ physical well being.

The boys will get back to a normal life, it’s 9 days not 9 years. If this gesture helps the plight of stateless hilltribes and brings it to the attention of the world then I say it’s a good thing. Of course they are being orchestrated by the authorities. If not then it would be a free for all with shady film producers, so called agents and book offers. Let the boys do the 9 days in piece and leave it at that. 

[cmsally]

22 minutes ago, Catoni said:

    Look around.... there are many branches of Buddhism in the world today.   Even in Thailand there are various smaller "sub-set" "schools" of Buddhism.  Two of the most well known being the Maha Nikaya and the Dhammayuttika Nikaya. There are also a few various "Forest" varieties of Buddhism connected in some cases, but not all, with those two or others.   In many areas, you find local ancient animism spiritualism and/or Hinduism is mixed in with Buddhism....  same to some extent in Myanmar and Laos and Cambodia.    You see that clearly in the blessings at the cave...  

Quote

Dhammayutika, literally, those who are “yoked to the teachings”

Dhammayutika evolved/was invented as a reaction to the forest reaction; to bring seat of power in Buddhism back to urban areas.

 

Quote

After the founding of the Dhammayuttika Nikāya by the then-monk Prince Mongkut in 1833, decades later all recognized monks not ordained in the Dhammayuttika order were considered to be part of the 'maha nikāya', the 'great collection' of those outside the new Dhammayuttika fraternity.

 I would still stand by my assertion that any Buddhist sect/branch that is not state endorsed, will not be going too far. Any attempt for Buddhism to branch out on an intellectual level or regarding any aspect of adaption to society outside the state model will simply not be happening.