Chaos and Khao San Road: LET IT BE

[overherebc]

18 minutes ago, brucec64 said:

My god - you are forced to walk all the way around it? That vendor certainly should be deprived of earning a living so that you are not inconvenienced...

Well no.

The vendor shouldn't in fact be blocking the footpath.

Let's go wild and picture someone in a wheelchair using or wanting to use the footpath or someone with a plaster on an ankle having to wheel or limp through 4 inch deep crap just to keep the vendor happy.

[connda]

3 hours ago, cmsally said:

Can you actually come up with some hard data to prove that ?

Start by giving some data on people you know that stay in the Khaosan area..

I know one couple who spend a couple of months in the Khaosan area, they are far from poor. They come to escape the USA winter , own a lot of property there as well an art gallery . Being in small business themselves, they are big supporters of the local economy, food/gym/restaurants etc always frequent places owned by locals.

 

Another couple I know come every year and rent out an apartment in the Khaosan area for the whole year. They probably spend only 2 months of the year max. but they pay for the whole year. Again not exactly short of cash.

 

Another person I know exports back to their home country and fills containers with items (some he gets from vendors on Khaosan). He also stays around Khaosan.

 

Compared to any one of these, the average family staying in Krabi, looks like a drop in the ocean. Also it seems the "govt" has just shut down most of the hotels in Krabi, so they will probably have to stay in one of the larger places and little if any money trickles down to the local economy from these.

The current administration has been good at one thing: destroying the livelihoods of middle and lower class business owners as well as destroying what were cultural icons that made Thailand uniques, like their open-air street markets.

[utalkin2me]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

I doubt that your number are right..  But hey I would not let facts come in the way of a good argument.

 

Lets say the family spends 10.000 per night on living and 10.000 per day on food. I would say one backpacker spends more then 200 bt per day and not all tourist families live in 10.000 bt a night lodging. 

 

I guess you just hate backpackers and try to justify your bias with false numbers. I live in BKK never had a problem with backpackers. But I am not a GOM.

IT isn't about me, it is aboit what Thais think. And as you posited, yes, i bet these guys spend in the neighborhood of a couple hundred baht a day when they can, and places like hostels on khao san road make this possible. They all sleep in the same bunk rooms and transmit things like bed bugs. They are a nightmare for the industry, think what you will. So yes, if i am the govt i want them gone too, ie i do not blame them at all. Focus your efforts on tourist who are actually going to spend money and give you a better image at the same time. 

 

I am sorry but i also thought it was humorous that your own argument still made them look really bad. So how many backpackers would it take to equal one family staying in krabi then? I threw out a number just for fun, what is your number, 90? lol You also forgot that a family will shop like crazy, for the wife and kids, but don't let little things like facts get in the way. Fact: krabi type family tourism is very good for Thailand, and Thais have wisely decided that backpackers lounging for next to nothing on khao san road aren't so good.

Edited August 8, 2018 by utalkin2me

[cmsally]

10 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

IT isn't about me, it is aboit what Thais think. And as you posited, yes, i bet these guys spend in the neighborhood of a couple hundred baht a day when they can, and places like hostels on khao san road make this possible. They all sleep in the same bunk rooms and transmit things like bed bugs. They are a nightmare for the industry, think what you will. So yes, if i am the govt i want them gone too, ie i do not blame them at all. Focus your efforts on tourist who are actually going to spend money and give you a better image at the same time. 

Perhaps you could quote what some of your Thai friends say about them and what the approx socio-economic status of your friends is.

Ironically you will find that most of these hostels / dorms have been opened up by younger Thais who come from middle class backgrounds and are quite well travelled. They know that there is a demand for cheap accommodation and the only cost efficient way to operate these days is a dorm set up. Often they have invested a fair bit of money to make the set up look quite presentable. Younger backpackers these days mostly go for a more "flashpacker" type of environment.

The younger Thais I know investing in these types of businesses often come from quite "cashed up" families and see it as a more desirable style of work in comparison to very stuffy / stratified Thai professional workplaces (not to mention the low salaries).

[utalkin2me]

8 minutes ago, cmsally said:

Perhaps you could quote what some of your Thai friends say about them and what the approx socio-economic status of your friends is.

Ironically you will find that most of these hostels / dorms have been opened up by younger Thais who come from middle class backgrounds and are quite well travelled. They know that there is a demand for cheap accommodation and the only cost efficient way to operate these days is a dorm set up. Often they have invested a fair bit of money to make the set up look quite presentable. Younger backpackers these days mostly go for a more "flashpacker" type of environment.

The younger Thais I know investing in these types of businesses often come from quite "cashed up" families and see it as a more desirable style of work in comparison to very stuffy / stratified Thai professional workplaces (not to mention the low salaries).

I just searched for hostels on agoda for fun. I sorted by price. Of course tons of results in the 80 baht to 100 baht range. I am not aure what your point is, that there are nicer than 80 baht rooms. Ok i will agree. I never meant to say there wasnt.

 

It is funny again to me because the 80 baht figure al ost perfectly aligns with the previous gentleman's quote of spending a total of more or less 200 baht a day. 

 

Honestly, my only point here is Thais seemed to have made a move, and I think it was a good one from tourism and socieconomic standpoints. But everyone seems to be calling them stupid for it, I just don't agree... that's it. 

 

But hey, if someone thinks a country having a ton of three dollar hotels rooms is good and is overall positive and healthy for tourism, the more power to them. I just don't agree. 

 

https://www.agoda.com/pages/agoda/default/DestinationSearchResult.aspx?poi=22120&languageId=1&userId=91b13fe0-ed30-4b14-9d9d-8f858829c430&pageTypeId=103&origin=US&locale=en-US&cid=-218&aid=130589&currencyCode=THB&htmlLanguage=en-us&cultureInfoName=en-US&ckuid=91b13fe0-ed30-4b14-9d9d-8f858829c430&prid=0&checkIn=2018-08-22&checkOut=2018-08-23&rooms=1&adults=1&children=0&priceCur=THB&los=1&textToSearch=Khao San Road&productType=-1&sort=priceLowToHigh

Edited August 8, 2018 by utalkin2me

[Fex Bluse]

2 hours ago, stanleycoin said:

Ha Ha.

Singapore is the most boring place on the planet.

full to the brim, with foreign rich twits.

the locals are so far up themselves they use toilet paper on there tongues

Next years new law,   is 12 months jail time for farting in public.

and the most disappointing Hooters i have ever been to. 

A agree that Singapore, while impressive in many ways, is the single most boring country I've ever visited and lived. It's good only for making money. 

 

Asians trend toward the boring and superficial as they become wealthy, though. With the notable exception of the Japanese who can be loads of fun, Koreans, Taiwanese, many Shanghainese, wealthy Thais (probably the worst) and Singaporeans are boring in its purist form. 

[robblok]

32 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

IT isn't about me, it is aboit what Thais think. And as you posited, yes, i bet these guys spend in the neighborhood of a couple hundred baht a day when they can, and places like hostels on khao san road make this possible. They all sleep in the same bunk rooms and transmit things like bed bugs. They are a nightmare for the industry, think what you will. So yes, if i am the govt i want them gone too, ie i do not blame them at all. Focus your efforts on tourist who are actually going to spend money and give you a better image at the same time. 

 

I am sorry but i also thought it was humorous that your own argument still made them look really bad. So how many backpackers would it take to equal one family staying in krabi then? I threw out a number just for fun, what is your number, 90? lol You also forgot that a family will shop like crazy, for the wife and kids, but don't let little things like facts get in the way. Fact: krabi type family tourism is very good for Thailand, and Thais have wisely decided that backpackers lounging for next to nothing on khao san road aren't so good.

I don't throw out numbers that really are not based on anything. A backpacker can't stay for 200 bt a day.. impossible that is below the Thai minimum salary and people just can't live like that. If you think otherwise.. be my guest. Just don't make up fake numbers.

 

I have no clue what a backpacker spends but you can be sure its more then 200 bt a day. I also have no exact clue what someone in Krabi spends. I just went for the max to see if your numbers would make sense.. they don't so stop defending them.

 

Let it put it this way I always have a holiday in Krabbi with my family and we certainly don't spend 20.000 a day. I even go to Koh lipe a relatively expensive Island. But I don't pretend that i know what others spend. I do know that a normal good hotel / bungalow on the expensive koh lipe 4000 but can be had much cheaper too. Food... on a day 8.000 maybe for a family of 4.  

 

I agree that normal tourists spend more then backpackers but your figures are way way off. Also because you compare a single backpacker to a family...... 

 

So lets take me and my family of 4 adults, we would spend 2x bungalow of 3.800 + 6.000 average on food that makes 13.600 then divide that by 4 = 3.400 a  person. Now your crazy low figure of 200 bath (impossible in my eyes)  makes it 17 .. if you go up to 400 bt (more realistic still real low) your at 1 to 9.

 

So you are only off a factor 10... so much for your calculation skills. 

 

What do you think of the zero dollar Chinese tours.. even worse then backpackers.. at least backpacker money goes into the Thai economy.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by robblok

[cmsally]

5 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

I just searched for hostels on agoda for fun. I sorted by price. Of course tons of results in the 80 baht to 100 baht range. I am not aure what your point is, that there are nicer than 80 baht rooms. Ok i will agree. I never meant to say there wasnt.

 

It is funny again to me because the 80 baht figure al ost perfectly aligns with the previous gentleman's quote of spending a total of more or less 200 baht a day. 

 

Honestly, my only point here is Thais seemed to have made a move, and I think it was a good one from tourism and socieconomic standpoints. But everyone seems to be calling them stupid for it, I just don't agree... that's it. 

 

https://www.agoda.com/pages/agoda/default/DestinationSearchResult.aspx?poi=22120&languageId=1&userId=91b13fe0-ed30-4b14-9d9d-8f858829c430&pageTypeId=103&origin=US&locale=en-US&cid=-218&aid=130589&currencyCode=THB&htmlLanguage=en-us&cultureInfoName=en-US&ckuid=91b13fe0-ed30-4b14-9d9d-8f858829c430&prid=0&checkIn=2018-08-22&checkOut=2018-08-23&rooms=1&adults=1&children=0&priceCur=THB&los=1&textToSearch=Khao San Road&productType=-1&sort=priceLowToHigh

For an accurate price you would need Booking.com as Agoda adds on taxes/commission etc to price first posted. So for example one advertised on Agoda @ 109 Bt is 160 Bt on Booking.com

Of course still very cheap but anyway all these are mostly run by Thais. So Thais are not making a move to eradicate budget tourism, it is the Thai govt that is making that move. Thai local investor and Thai govt are completely different things.

[utalkin2me]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

I don't throw out numbers that really are not based on anything. A backpacker can't stay for 200 bt a day.. impossible that is below the Thai minimum salary and people just can't live like that. If you think otherwise.. be my guest. Just don't make up fake numbers.

 

I have no clue what a backpacker spends but you can be sure its more then 200 bt a day. I also have no exact clue what someone in Krabi spends. I just went for the max to see if your numbers would make sense.. they don't so stop defending them.

 

Let it put it this way I always have a holiday in Krabbi with my family and we certainly don't spend 20.000 a day. I even go to Koh lipe a relatively expensive Island. But I don't pretend that i know what others spend. I do know that a normal good hotel / bungalow on the expensive koh lipe 4000 but can be had much cheaper too. Food... on a day 8.000 maybe for a family of 4.  

 

I agree that normal tourists spend more then backpackers but your figures are way way off. Also because you compare a single backpacker to a family...... 

 

So lets take me and my family of 4 adults, we would spend 2x bungalow of 3.800 + 6.000 average on food that makes 13.600 then divide that by 4 = 3.400 a  person. Now your crazy low figure of 200 bath (impossible in my eyes)  makes it 17 .. if you go up to 400 bt (more realistic still real low) your at 1 to 9.

 

So you are only off a factor 10... so much for your calculation skills. 

 

 

80 baht room all over the place. I know for a fact i can eat three times a day in bkk for 120 baht. Maybe you have never been around backpackers? I am not sure. I actually used to be one. Oh the irony. 

 

https://www.agoda.com/pages/agoda/default/DestinationSearchResult.aspx?poi=22120&languageId=1&userId=91b13fe0-ed30-4b14-9d9d-8f858829c430&pageTypeId=103&origin=US&locale=en-US&cid=-218&aid=130589&currencyCode=THB&htmlLanguage=en-us&cultureInfoName=en-US&ckuid=91b13fe0-ed30-4b14-9d9d-8f858829c430&prid=0&checkIn=2018-08-22&checkOut=2018-08-23&rooms=1&adults=1&children=0&priceCur=THB&los=1&textToSearch=Khao San Road&productType=-1&sort=priceLowToHigh

[stanleycoin]

1 hour ago, ratcatcher said:

You are spot on! Pouring used fats and other liquids down a sewer creates what they cal 'fatbergs' (not Walmart customers) and they look like this and help to block drainage. Bangkok must have some of the finest fatbergs under its streets

.

Yes and some hold quite high positions in Thailand. 

love the Walmart joke, been there seen that..

Houston we have a weight problem. 

 

[utalkin2me]

3 minutes ago, cmsally said:

For an accurate price you would need Booking.com as Agoda adds on taxes/commission etc to price first posted. So for example one advertised on Agoda @ 109 Bt is 160 Bt on Booking.com

Of course still very cheap but anyway all these are mostly run by Thais. So Thais are not making a move to eradicate budget tourism, it is the Thai govt that is making that move. Thai local investor and Thai govt are completely different things.

Yes, that was probably an error in haste or a damn ipad error. Thai govt not Thais, for sure. I give it to Thais to be smart enough to know who to cater to, but I am also giving it to the govt to know which types of tourists are going to be more efficacious long term. 

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

80 baht room all over the place. I know for a fact i can eat three times a day in bkk for 120 baht. Maybe you have never been around backpackers? I am not sure. I actually used to be one. Oh the irony. 

 

https://www.agoda.com/pages/agoda/default/DestinationSearchResult.aspx?poi=22120&languageId=1&userId=91b13fe0-ed30-4b14-9d9d-8f858829c430&pageTypeId=103&origin=US&locale=en-US&cid=-218&aid=130589&currencyCode=THB&htmlLanguage=en-us&cultureInfoName=en-US&ckuid=91b13fe0-ed30-4b14-9d9d-8f858829c430&prid=0&checkIn=2018-08-22&checkOut=2018-08-23&rooms=1&adults=1&children=0&priceCur=THB&los=1&textToSearch=Khao San Road&productType=-1&sort=priceLowToHigh

Even then your off a factor 5.. big difference  between 20 backpackers or a 100 like you claim.. You should go back to school.

[utalkin2me]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

Even then your off a factor 5.. big difference  between 20 backpackers or a 100 like you claim.. You should go back to school.

YOu just insisted a backpacker can't stay for 200 baht a day. I just proved they can. Who needs schooling? 

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

YOu just insisted a backpacker can't stay for 200 baht a day. I just proved they can. Who needs schooling? 

Yes I still insist that.. because if its 160 a day for sleeping alone.. then how about transport / food maybe even a beer. I bet you drank beer when you were a backpacker. I know the times I went to Khaosarm I saw them drinking. 

 

So spending over 200 a day in Thailand seems to be logical.. unless you think they can survive on 40 bt a day for food and drinks and transport. 

 

Your only digging your hole deeper. 

[cmsally]

3 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

YOu just insisted a backpacker can't stay for 200 baht a day. I just proved they can. Who needs schooling? 

Yes they can but about 16 beds to a room and shared bathroom. That would be the same as a couple taking the room for 3200 Bt (they would need a private bathroom and lots of one on one time - as they paid more). If the hostel sells food, that is 16 fried rices instead of 2 and 16 banana shakes instead of 2. Maybe some commission from selling tickets etc again 16x.

The numbers are looking better for having people crushed in a dorm.

[utalkin2me]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

I doubt that your number are right..  But hey I would not let facts come in the way of a good argument.

 

Lets say the family spends 10.000 per night on living and 10.000 per day on food. I would say one backpacker spends more then 200 bt per day and not all tourist families live in 10.000 bt a night lodging. 

 

I guess you just hate backpackers and try to justify your bias with false numbers. I live in BKK never had a problem with backpackers. But I am not a GOM.

Here are your own numbers, again. Not mine, yours. Yet, you are leaving out heavy shopping for gifts etc, which we will just forget about. 

 

So, under your numbers, a Family visiting krabi spends 20k per day. We have seen a backpacker can stay for 80 baht a night and eat for 120 per day. 

 

 So, according to your own numbers you brought up for your argument, one family in a nice spot in krabi is equal to 100 backpackers on khao san road. 

 

You just got schooled, but you told people to go back to school. What does that make you? The trump of Thai visa or perhaps worse. 

 

You can post as much as you want, but it is hard to make a comeback when you make yourself look that bad. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by utalkin2me

[mommysboy]

Khao San Rd is truly famous throughout the world. It is one small road that can be kept as it is because it is popular and unique- a great tourist attraction, and not just for backpackers at all.

 

The average citizen is not inconvenienced, there are no commuters having to traverse obstacles as in other parts. People know what they are getting- indeed they come specifically for its rarity.

 

Madness.

 

Clean up what needs to be cleaned up.

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by mommysboy

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, brucec64 said:

5 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

Got to disagree.

 

One of life's little irritations is the way stalls force people into the road, especially during the rainy season. 

 

There’s a stall at the end of my soi which completely blocks the path forcing me to walk round it to get to the path or cross to the other side. 

 

Normally this is ok, but during the rainy season the road floods very quickly and to a depth above the ankle.

 

The amount of filth floating in it is foul.

 

Really hate having to stand in it.  

My god - you are forced to walk all the way around it? That vendor certainly should be deprived of earning a living so that you are not inconvenienced...

 

You think he's the only one inconvenienced?.... 

 

In your attempt to 'defend' the poor vendor you have outed your own imbalanced bias... 

 

The issue is simply that through a historical lack of enforcement the vendors have encroached on public footpaths for decades. While this may have its charms and certainly creates character and definite 'areas of character' such as Khao Sarn road, there seems to be a growing sense of entitlement in these vendors who care little of the inconvenience they cause to both foot and vehicular traffic. 

 

Controlling these street stalls to manageable numbers so that footpaths are still easily navigable is a solution, however, the 'discretional policing' required may not work given the flawed policing and corruption which takes place in Thailand - thus, the consequence is this blanket ban, unfortunately white washing out the character of some areas....  This is a shame, as all thats required is a little intelligent balance and discretion in intelligently controlling the vendors...i.e. effort !

 

 

 

 

[cmsally]

I think assuming a middle class hotel staying family is buying a lot of gifts is incorrect. You can ask any of the vendors of "gifts" and all will tell you the same, the majority of people spend money on food and drink but not gifts. This is an across the board phenomena and not related to any particular class of traveller. This trend has been ongoing for quite some years.

[utalkin2me]

16 minutes ago, robblok said:

Yes I still insist that.. because if its 160 a day for sleeping alone.. then how about transport / food maybe even a beer. I bet you drank beer when you were a backpacker. I know the times I went to Khaosarm I saw them drinking. 

 

So spending over 200 a day in Thailand seems to be logical.. unless you think they can survive on 40 bt a day for food and drinks and transport. 

 

Your only digging your hole deeper. 

It is not 160 baht per day. It is 84. I am not sure you can read at this point but here it is again. Another schooling. You bettrr watch out this little arguemnt you have gotten into may end up actually affecting your overconfidence. 

 

But hey, don't let little things like actual online booking quotes get in your way!

 

https://www.agoda.com/pages/agoda/default/DestinationSearchResult.aspx?poi=22120&languageId=1&userId=91b13fe0-ed30-4b14-9d9d-8f858829c430&pageTypeId=103&origin=US&locale=en-US&cid=-218&aid=130589&currencyCode=THB&htmlLanguage=en-us&cultureInfoName=en-US&ckuid=91b13fe0-ed30-4b14-9d9d-8f858829c430&prid=0&checkIn=2018-08-22&checkOut=2018-08-23&rooms=1&adults=1&children=0&priceCur=THB&los=1&textToSearch=Khao San Road&productType=-1&sort=priceLowToHigh

Edited August 8, 2018 by utalkin2me

[yellowboat]

7 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

Thailand earned its reputation as a great tourist destination many years ago not through the buildings, the discipline of its people or through the efficiencies of is transport systems, but rather through the vibrancy and fun-loving madness of its people.

 

When you kill off the concept of 'Sanuk!' in the society, as the military seems to want to do, then you also kill off the reason people visit the country.

 

Khao San road wasn't broken, stop trying to fix it.

 

Idiots.

Wow, you hit the nail squarely on the head.   It was fun, sexy and a place of refuge, a second home.  Not so much anymore.  The military and the civil service are ruining Thailand. 

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, CiaranKL said:

oh what an irritation it must be for you .....god help ya

Yep it is. 

 

There is no god. 

[Thian]

32 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

It is one small road that can be kept as it is because it is popular and unique- a great tourist attraction

? 55555, another one who has never been there.

[mommysboy]

7 minutes ago, Thian said:

? 55555, another one who has never been there.

I have been there (the area) many times over the last 20 years. I went twice last year.  It's a great area for me.  And let me tell you I wan't the only one there!

 

If you want Thailand to be like your hometown, why not just go back!

[cmsally]

14 minutes ago, Thian said:

? 55555, another one who has never been there.

So you would include Rambuttri and the sois behind the temple under the umbrella of Khaosan. The daytime vendors are pretty much confined to Khaosan unless you count the ones on the main street which are pretty much aimed at the Thai market.

[mommysboy]

4 minutes ago, cmsally said:

So you would include Rambuttri and the sois behind the temple under the umbrella of Khaosan. The daytime vendors are pretty much confined to Khaosan unless you count the ones on the main street which are pretty much aimed at the Thai market.

Yes, I would. Khao San Rd is obviously the heart of the area. The older I get, and because I have a young family, I prefer to stay Rambutri Lek.  But every day we stay we spend an hour or so on the main strip. The only inconvenience, indeed danger, are the cars going up and down the strip.

 

During the daytime, there are far fewer tourists around, so it really doesn't matter about the vendors. 

[jenny2017]

8 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

Finally a common sense article.

 

The BMA, following the Junta's lead, seems to feel that the area should be similar to an army base, but without the charm and/or ambiance. This may be appropriate for the military types, but it is important to remember that tourists do not visit Thailand because they are enamored by military things.

 

Thailand earned its reputation as a great tourist destination many years ago not through the buildings, the discipline of its people or through the efficiencies of is transport systems, but rather through the vibrancy and fun-loving madness of its people.

 

When you kill off the concept of 'Sanuk!' in the society, as the military seems to want to do, then you also kill off the reason people visit the country.

 

Khao San road wasn't broken, stop trying to fix it.

 

Idiots.

 

 I'm afraid it's more complex than it seems to be. Take the soldiers'  power away and things will get back to "normal". It's unbelievable what destruction they could do in only four years. The "Land of Smiles" doesn't exist anymore. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by jenny2017

[Thian]

37 minutes ago, cmsally said:

So you would include Rambuttri and the sois behind the temple under the umbrella of Khaosan. The daytime vendors are pretty much confined to Khaosan unless you count the ones on the main street which are pretty much aimed at the Thai market.

It's all kao san road, it was only 1 street 20 years ago but after that it grew to what it is now.

[DrTuner]

That's what military juntas do. Make the life of others miserable. The clock is ticking for a counter coup.

[DrTuner]

2 hours ago, Fex Bluse said:

Asians trend toward the boring and superficial as they become wealthy, though. With the notable exception of the Japanese who can be loads of fun, Koreans, Taiwanese, many Shanghainese, wealthy Thais (probably the worst) and Singaporeans are boring in its purist form. 

Keen observation. It's all about showing off and gaining face, extremely boring. For some reason, maybe because they were bombed out of it, Japanese are a different breed. Or maybe it's just because they weren't infiltrated by the Chinese. Dunno.