UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, rixalex said:

I find the authoritarian, anti democratic view that there can never be another vote disturbing. 

 

Who has said there can't be another vote?

 

Having a vote before a previous vote has been enacted is what is being argued against.

 

What is it exactly the brexiteers are scared of by the thought of another vote on any final exit deal?

 

I'm scared that having a vote on the final exit deal guarantees that the EU will not offer a good deal, since the EU will know, the worse the deal is, the more chance there is that it will be voted down by the British people, leading to Britain returning cap in hand to the EU.

 

I can appreciate why a remainer wouldn't fear this or be bothered by scuppering our negotiating position.

 

 

 

The posters I have quoted consistently say there cannot be another vote. 

 

As to the final exit deal going to a vote...I cannot see the brexiteers fears of losing it as a valid reason for not holding it. 

 

That’s how democracy works. 

[rixalex]

31 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

The posters I have quoted consistently say there cannot be another vote. 

 

As to the final exit deal going to a vote...I cannot see the brexiteers fears of losing it as a valid reason for not holding it. 

 

That’s how democracy works. 

The posters I have quoted consistently say there cannot be another vote. 

 

You'll need to be more specific.

 

I haven't read a single poster who has argued that there can never be another vote. Who has argued that?

 

Your second point completely ignores the reason i gave as to why people who don't want Brexit scuppered, fear another vote before the final deal, and that's because it puts our negotiators, who are useless enough as it is, in a position in which they will never get a good deal from the EU, as the EU will no longer have anything at stake, knowing that offering a bad deal will simply result in the British people rejecting it.

[Bluespunk]

6 minutes ago, rixalex said:

The posters I have quoted consistently say there cannot be another vote. 

 

You'll need to be more specific.

 

I haven't read a single poster who has argued that there can never be another vote. Who has argued that?

 

Your second point completely ignores the reason i gave as to why people who don't want Brexit scuppered, fear another vote before the final deal, and that's because it puts our negotiators, who are useless enough as it is, in a position in which they will never get a good deal from the EU, as the EU will no longer have anything at stake, knowing that offering a bad deal will simply result in the British people rejecting it.

Read the thread. 

 

Youll see them...rally 123 seems particularly opposed. 

 

I dont really care care how brexiteers may feel about a vote on the final exit deal. 

 

 

Those wishing a  vote on this have every right to call for one. 

[whatsupdoc]

30 minutes ago, rixalex said:

I'm scared that having a vote on the final exit deal guarantees that the EU will not offer a good deal, since the EU will know, the worse the deal is, the more chance there is that it will be voted down by the British people, leading to Britain returning cap in hand to the EU.

 

A good deal is the one the UK had (so remain), a fairly good deal is some form of associated membership (but because of the red lines, the UK doesn't want it).

Then there is a fair deal (FTA).

 

Any other deal has to be primarily good for the EU. Why should they agree to a bad deal for them?

The UK doesn't decide any future trade relationship, it would be largely up to what the EU is willing to accept.

And it will not be any different if the UK tries to negotiate with the USA. The UK on its own is just too small to get really good deals.

 

[Grouse]

7 hours ago, sirineou said:

You don't have to be American to have an opinion on Trump, all you need is to be intelligent and observant. And your opinion does not need to be correct all that it needs is to be sincere .

I an not British, but I do have an opinion. It is not necessarily correct but it is  sincere.

For such an important decision IMO a simple majority is inadequate for the following reason, 

Regardless of what happens , brexit, no brexit, a significant portion of the population will be unhappy.There is no clear mandate.

It presents an existential danger to the -U- in the UK   

Correct. For a major constitutional change a super majority is required to avoid civil war.

[StreetCowboy]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Correct. For a major constitutional change a super majority is required to avoid civil war.

When a union ignores the opinion of one nation in favour of that of another within the union, there is a risk to the union.  

[MrPatrickThai]

9 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

What is it exactly the brexiteers are scared of by the thought of another vote on any final exit deal?

Losing, of course.

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Losing, of course.

Maybe they should replay the FA Cup Final, I'm sure Man Utd would be very happy with that, I cannot vouch for Chelsea though.

[citybiker]

Losing, of course.

Any final vote (on the deal) is highly likely although not confirmed to take place, however it's within the HoP.

Irrespective of viewpoint, the overall decision has already been made and implemented of the current direction, shame it's primarily the anti-Brexit bunch that struggle to move on.

Note I say anti-Brexit not losers for a good reason.


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[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

Correct. For a major constitutional change a super majority is required to avoid civil war.

You think those supporting remain would start a civil war if they don't get their way?? ?

[dick dasterdly]

On 8/10/2018 at 8:10 AM, smedly said:

the people didn't vote for a deal they voted to leave and that is what should have happened, all this deal stuff is outside the scope of leaving - it confused the issue.

 

Talks on a trade deal should be no part of leaving the EU they are a separate issue, when ART 50 was triggered the UK should have been working on leaving under WTO - if the EU wanted to talk trade deal while that was going on then fine, it is all this deal stuff that has caused the confusion across the board.

 

The EU Commission does not want a powerhouse trader like the  UK with their own world trade freedom competing against them - they will stop at nothing to prevent that as has been shown so far

 

The people voted to leave the EU not soft not hard ……………………...Leave 100% Leave

"when ART 50 was triggered the UK should have been working on leaving under WTO - if the EU wanted to talk trade deal while that was going on then fine, it is all this deal stuff that has caused the confusion across the board"

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

I've no problem at all with those that support remain arguing for another referendum to re-join the eu - after we've actually left.

 

i.e. carrying out the same 'fight' as those that fought for decades for another referendum on whether the uk should remain within the eu!

[whatsupdoc]

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"when ART 50 was triggered the UK should have been working on leaving under WTO - if the EU wanted to talk trade deal while that was going on then fine, it is all this deal stuff that has caused the confusion across the board"

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

I've no problem at all with those that support remain arguing for another referendum to re-join the eu - after we've actually left.

 

i.e. carrying out the same 'fight' as those that fought for decades for another referendum on whether the uk should remain within the eu!

Makes sense, and after a no deal Brexit it would not take long to get that rejoin referendum (probably with different party/parties in government though).

[ChidlomDweller]

20 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

What would be interesting, to me anyway, is to discuss what the likely or possible outcomes are, and what different people think the likelihood of each is.

 

Then it might be a discussion rather than a bunfight.

 

 

This is a good summary.

 

https://brexitoptions.co.uk/

 

Also Paul Krugman's recent column on Brexit (it was linked here somewhere).

 

A very long but good read is this transcript of a speech by an insider, former UK ambassador to the EU among many other things, Sir Ivan Rogers.  I read it this week and I'll read it again, it's that interesting.  I don't particularly see him taking sides.  He describes the long-term forces that have led to the current situation, and while I suspect he voted remain, he seems quite fatalistic that this was unavoidable.  I agree with you that an in depth look is more interesting than trying to score forum victories over the other side.  That can be fun, but in the end you don't learn anything and it changes no one's position.

 

https://policyscotland.gla.ac.uk/blog-sir-ivan-rogers-speech-text-in-full/

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2018 by ChidlomDweller

[Stupooey]

32 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"when ART 50 was triggered the UK should have been working on leaving under WTO - if the EU wanted to talk trade deal while that was going on then fine, it is all this deal stuff that has caused the confusion across the board"

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

I've no problem at all with those that support remain arguing for another referendum to re-join the eu - after we've actually left.

 

i.e. carrying out the same 'fight' as those that fought for decades for another referendum on whether the uk should remain within the eu!

Your last paragraph has really summed it up. The 1975 referendum saw a vote of 67% to 33% in favour of staying in Europe, the sort of majority where you can start to use emotive phrases like "the voice of the people". Unfortunately the 33% never accepted the result. Consisting mainly of the right wing of the Tories and the left wing of Labour (who have more in common than they are ever prepared to admit), whenever their own party was in power they would prevent the Government from fully committing to Europe and therefore allowed the EU to be shaped by others, in particular Germany and France. When people in 2016 said that the EU was not the one they had voted for, they had only themselves to blame, although of course they were too arrogant to admit this.

Being called a moaner by people who have been moaning for 40 years really takes the biscuit.

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

Your last paragraph has really summed it up. The 1975 referendum saw a vote of 67% to 33% in favour of staying in Europe, the sort of majority where you can start to use emotive phrases like "the voice of the people". Unfortunately the 33% never accepted the result. Consisting mainly of the right wing of the Tories and the left wing of Labour (who have more in common than they are ever prepared to admit), whenever their own party was in power they would prevent the Government from fully committing to Europe and therefore allowed the EU to be shaped by others, in particular Germany and France. When people in 2016 said that the EU was not the one they had voted for, they had only themselves to blame, although of course they were too arrogant to admit this.

Being called a moaner by people who have been moaning for 40 years really takes the biscuit.

So wrong, everywhere. 

[ChidlomDweller]

13 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

Your last paragraph has really summed it up. The 1975 referendum saw a vote of 67% to 33% in favour of staying in Europe, the sort of majority where you can start to use emotive phrases like "the voice of the people". Unfortunately the 33% never accepted the result. Consisting mainly of the right wing of the Tories and the left wing of Labour (who have more in common than they are ever prepared to admit), whenever their own party was in power they would prevent the Government from fully committing to Europe and therefore allowed the EU to be shaped by others, in particular Germany and France. When people in 2016 said that the EU was not the one they had voted for, they had only themselves to blame, although of course they were too arrogant to admit this.

Being called a moaner by people who have been moaning for 40 years really takes the biscuit.

So right, everywhere.

[whatsupdoc]

30 minutes ago, ChidlomDweller said:

This is a good summary.

 

https://brexitoptions.co.uk/

 

Also Paul Krugman's recent column on Brexit (it was linked here somewhere).

 

A very long but good read is this transcript of a speech by an insider, former UK ambassador to the EU among many other things, Sir Ivan Rogers.  I read it this week and I'll read it again, it's that interesting.  I don't particularly see him taking sides.  He describes the long-term forces that have led to the current situation, and while I suspect he voted remain, he seems quite fatalistic that this was unavoidable.  I agree with you that an in depth look is more interesting than trying to score forum victories over the other side.  That can be fun, but in the end you don't learn anything and it changes no one's position.

 

https://policyscotland.gla.ac.uk/blog-sir-ivan-rogers-speech-text-in-full/

 

 

 

One of the best contributions ever to the Brexit threads on this forum. The speech by Sir Ivan Rogers is absolutely excellent. He should have been the chief negotiator on the UK side.

[mfd101]

11 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

One of the best contributions ever to the Brexit threads on this forum. The speech by Sir Ivan Rogers is absolutely excellent. He should have been the chief negotiator on the UK side.

Yes, absolutely agree. And the brexitoptions.co.uk item is something EVERYONE should have a careful look at. It is VERY enlightening, if only to confirm the mind-boggling complexity of the issues (and, as it says, it's only a simplified version).

 

Edited August 11, 2018 by mfd101

[rixalex]

Read the thread. 
 
Youll see them...rally 123 seems particularly opposed. 
 
I dont really care care how brexiteers may feel about a vote on the final exit deal. 
 
 
Those wishing a  vote on this have every right to call for one. 

I have read the thread. If rally 123 (or anyone else) has stated that there should never be another referendum, quote them. I don't believe they have.

I'm not asking you to care how Brexiteers feel. I'm asking you to address the problem of how it's possible to have a final deal referendum without that referendum completely undermining Britain's negotiating position.

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[Bluespunk]

11 minutes ago, rixalex said:

I have read the thread. If rally 123 (or anyone else) has stated that there should never be another referendum, quote them. I don't believe they have.

I'm not asking you to care how Brexiteers feel. I'm asking you to address the problem of how it's possible to have a final deal referendum without that referendum completely undermining Britain's negotiating position.

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I don’t share your alleged concern about a vote on an exit deal.

 

It is not a valid reason to deny such a vote. 

 

As to you not finding any others who do not accept there should be another vote...I can only advise you to read with more care. 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2018 by Bluespunk

[Brian Allen]

.... UK voters should make final Brexit decision .... 

UK voters already did. On June 23 2016. 

[Stupooey]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

So wrong, everywhere. 

Everywhere? So in your fantasy world, in the 1975 referendum we voted to leave. Need I go on?

[bannork]

2 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

One of the best contributions ever to the Brexit threads on this forum. The speech by Sir Ivan Rogers is absolutely excellent. He should have been the chief negotiator on the UK side.

Every MP should be locked in a room over the weekend and forced to read that speech before they're allowed out.

As it says, there is no such thing as free trade.

Edited August 11, 2018 by bannork

[nauseus]

7 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

Everywhere? So in your fantasy world, in the 1975 referendum we voted to leave. Need I go on?

Yes everywhere.

 

Your assumptions are the fantasies. The 1975 vote was for the EEC (common market) and not the political project that is now in plainly evident to all. There was a small group of European sceptics then but this had grown to become 52% of the country by 2016. That the UK is not fully integrated into the EU, Schengen and the Euro is just as well - there were no majorities of any political party pushing for that, except maybe the Lib-Dems. The successive signing of treaties without referenda was bad enough.

 

The "shape" of the EU would not be much different if we had been further absorbed into it. Germany, with France plus their supporting cast of continental allies would have run the show, as they have, anyway. This EU is not what was approved in 1975 and if the British public had not been so deceived, the EEC would have been rejected by them then.  

 

 

[brewsterbudgen]

.... UK voters should make final Brexit decision .... 
UK voters already did. On June 23 2016. 

Why was that "final"? It was advisory at best. Let the people decide.

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[citybiker]

Why was that "final"? It was advisory at best. Let the people decide.

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The people already did decide, yet another who's struggling to accept and move on perhaps?


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[brewsterbudgen]

The people already did decide, yet another who's struggling to accept and move on perhaps?


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Absolutely. I care passionately about the destruction of my country and depriving young people of a future. Why are Brexiteers so scared about letting the people decide on the terms of Brexit, once they are fully known and understood. Another referendum or, more likely, an extension of Article 50 and then a General Election with parties fully committed to either "no deal" (UKIP), the Chequers deal (Tories) or Remain (Lib Dem, Green, Scot Nats and, crucially, Labour) would be fair to everyone.

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[Grouse]

4 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

You think those supporting remain would start a civil war if they don't get their way?? ?

It was a turn of phrase. However the divisions are deeper than I've ever known. It is for that reason that super majorities are required to avoid interminable fighting and also oscillation. Right now there is a risk of flip flopping. With a two thirds or three quarter majority there is no problem.

[citybiker]

Absolutely. I care passionately about the destruction of my country and depriving young people of a future. Why are Brexiteers so scared about letting the people decide on the terms of Brexit, once they are fully known and understood. Another referendum or, more likely, an extension of Article 50 and then a General Election with parties fully committed to either "no deal" (UKIP), the Chequers deal (Tories) or Remain (Lib Dem, Green, Scot Nats and, crucially, Labour) would be fair to everyone.

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Oh dear, passionate about the destruction of the U.K?

Still waiting on the apocalyptic scenario & the young, like all other age groups will adjust accordingly.

The only people I see scared are remainers reliving Groundhog Day as they didn't get the desired result. With respect....Enjoy the thread.


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[brewsterbudgen]

Oh dear, passionate about the destruction of the U.K?

Still waiting on the apocalyptic scenario & the young, like all other age groups will adjust accordingly.

The only people I see scared are remainers reliving Groundhog Day as they didn't get the desired result. With respect....Enjoy the thread.


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You have a point. However I don't think ", The Establishment" (politicians, civil servants, Bank of England, the City, the unions) will allow a no deal Brexit. So an extension makes sense and that will inevitably coincide with a General Election fought on Brexit/Remain manifestos. Hopefully the country will see sense.

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