UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[sandyf]

20 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

The option on the Ballot paper that stated leave the EU,  and we were all told that by ticking that option we would be leaving the EU the single market and the customs union in exactly the same way that if someone ticked the remain option that we mean remaining in the EU, Single Market and Customs Union

Invalid comment. Remaining in the EU is inclusive, leaving is not. It is fairly obvious, there are countries in the SM but not in the EU.

What was "meant" is contentious and whether you like it or not, always will be.

[baboon]

1 minute ago, vinny41 said:

David Cameron !!28 TIMES!! "Leave Single Market" (June 2016)

 

I don't think you have done yourself any favours by posting that completely out of context video...

[baboon]

7 minutes ago, vogie said:

Told by David Cameron on the Andrew Marr Show, just prior to the referendum, he was very explicit about this.

I will take your word for it, though I would have preferred to view it myself.

[vogie]

Just now, baboon said:

I will take your word for it, though I would have preferred to view it myself.

I have posted it twice already and I believe vinny has posted it.

[vinny41]

16 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Invalid comment. Remaining in the EU is inclusive, leaving is not. It is fairly obvious, there are countries in the SM but not in the EU.

What was "meant" is contentious and whether you like it or not, always will be.

You can call it want you want but all the leaver voters I know it was quite clear to them that ticking the box to leave meant leaving the eu, leaving the single market and leaving the customs union and Cameron, Clegg Osborne all stated that if you ticket the leave box all of the above applies

Out of Interested what did you thinking the Remaining in the EU box meant

[Grouse]

Cameron had no authority to state that the referendum result would be implemented. However, it is fair to point out that the CONs did have a clear majority at the time and could have ignored the DUP with impunity.

[MrPatrickThai]

lol have they not exited yet?

[smedly]

58 minutes ago, meinphuket said:

Unfortunately those are Not the club rules, which the Uk both helped devise and to which the UK signed up. If you want the EU to impose a blockade, or hold up and ruin the exports to their largest partner, which is the EU, then so be it. Hard Brexit is ostrich policy.

complete and utter nonsense, you do not block trade with one of your top trading partners under any circumstance - and I am talking about trade only and not political dominance 

[billd766]

2 hours ago, baboon said:

Anything other than admitting that going into this without a plan A, B and C is / was a really stupid idea...

 

Is that why David Cameron allowed the referendum, because he HAD a Plan A, B and C?

Edited October 23, 2018 by billd766
edited for bad spelling after I had posted it.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

It would be fair to blame the Leave campaign, normally campaigns are backed by policies and strategies, but not the Leave campaign, they were backed only by lies, and then when they won the best they had was to point fingers at remainers and say 'you' its your job to sort out the mess I've gotten us all in to.

The campaigns were about the actual vote. Nobody knew who would be in control of the leaving process if the vote was out. If you want to play the blame game start with Cameron. 

[Kieran00001]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The campaigns were about the actual vote. Nobody knew who would be in control of the leaving process if the vote was out. If you want to play the blame game start with Cameron. 

 

Cameron did the right thing, he allowed the people to have the vote they wanted, he didn't want it so he couldn't be at the helm during the exit process, and he left, good.  I believe it should be someone who believes in it who overseas it, do you not?

[Kieran00001]

8 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The campaigns were about the actual vote. Nobody knew who would be in control of the leaving process if the vote was out. If you want to play the blame game start with Cameron. 

 

And clearly the campaigns were not about only the vote, they allocated budgets.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Kieran00001

[baboon]

6 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Is that why David Cameron allowed the referendum, because he HAD a Plan A, B and C?

No, he allowed the referendum because he knew that 'Remain' would win. A historical whoops-a-daisy for the ages, that one...

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

The man they first put in charge was Davis, he was a vocal Leave supporter before the referendum and he is currently campaigning with Farage in the Leave Means Leave campaign, clearly he is still a Leave supporter.  The man who is in currently in charge of Brexit is Dominic Raab, he was a prominent campaigner for Leave and on the Vote Leave campaign committee.  So what exactly are you on about, or do you not really know what you are on about and just want someone to blame other than your incompetent Brexiteers?

ICINO - In charge in name only - that is now obvious. Davis finally had enough of May's bullshine and quit. I expect Raab is there in a similarly restricted role. 

 

If a Brexiteer had actually been in charge of this, we would be out already. 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

The man they first put in charge was Davis, he was a vocal Leave supporter before the referendum and he is currently campaigning with Farage in the Leave Means Leave campaign, clearly he is still a Leave supporter.  The man who is in currently in charge of Brexit is Dominic Raab, he was a prominent campaigner for Leave and on the Vote Leave campaign committee.  So what exactly are you on about, or do you not really know what you are on about and just want someone to blame other than your incompetent Brexiteers?

ICINO - In charge in name only - that is now obvious. Davis finally had enough of May's bullshine and quit. I expect Raab is there in a similarly restricted role. 

 

If a Brexiteer had actually been in charge of this, we would be out already. 

[nauseus]

11 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Cameron did the right thing, he allowed the people to have the vote they wanted, he didn't want it so he couldn't be at the helm during the exit process, and he left, good.  I believe it should be someone who believes in it who overseas it, do you not?

If you mean whoever oversees the leaving process should be pro leave, then yes, of course I belive that.

[Kieran00001]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

ICINO - In charge in name only - that is now obvious. Davis finally had enough of May's bullshine and quit. I expect Raab is there in a similarly restricted role. 

 

If a Brexiteer had actually been in charge of this, we would be out already. 

 

Do you think that because so many Brexiteers are solely reliant on tacit knowledge in their decision making?  There would be no point in waiting in that case, would there?

[Kieran00001]

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

If you mean whoever oversees the leaving process should be pro leave, then yes, of course I belive that.

What is that Cameron is to blame for, allowing the plebs the vote?

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

What is that Cameron is to blame for, allowing the plebs the vote?

No. He is at fault for having no exit plan in the event that leave won and that he actually kept his word to deliver Brexit. He never said in advance that he would quit as PM if the vote was out, did he? 

[Kieran00001]

18 minutes ago, nauseus said:

No. He is at fault for having no exit plan in the event that leave won and that he actually kept his word to deliver Brexit. He never said in advance that he would quit as PM if the vote was out, did he?  

 

So you don't want a Remainer overseeing the exit process but you do want to use a Remainers exit plan?

[vinny41]

31 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

What is that Cameron is to blame for, allowing the plebs the vote?

Clegg has been calling for a eu referendum  as far back as 2008

https://labourlist.org/2011/10/nick-clegg-calls-for-a-referendum-on-europe/

[Orac]

No. He is at fault for having no exit plan in the event that leave won and that he actually kept his word to deliver Brexit. He never said in advance that he would quit as PM if the vote was out, did he? 

The mandate from the referendum set no timetable for leaving the EU but left it with the govt to come up with a plan for leaving so it was reasonable for Cameron to step down at the point and let the Tories pick another leader to come up with this plan - unfortunately they picked TM by default without members getting a vote because Leadsom, a leaver, stepped aside. There was nothing to stop TM coming up with a plan and getting her ducks in a row before triggering Art50 but instead she rushed in and set the clock running without that plan in place and the called a GE wasting more of that valuable time and failing to get a solid mandate for her exit plan at the ballot box.

Personally I am appalled at what the Conservative Party has become with one shocking decision after another all due to party being put before the good of the country. Having being a member for many years previously which I let lapse when I moved to Thailand It will take a lot to get me to vote for them again.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[nauseus]

22 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

The mandate from the referendum set no timetable for leaving the EU but left it with the govt to come up with a plan for leaving so it was reasonable for Cameron to step down at the point and let the Tories pick another leader to come up with this plan - unfortunately they picked TM by default without members getting a vote because Leadsom, a leaver, stepped aside. There was nothing to stop TM coming up with a plan and getting her ducks in a row before triggering Art50 but instead she rushed in and set the clock running without that plan in place and the called a GE wasting more of that valuable time and failing to get a solid mandate for her exit plan at the ballot box.

Personally I am appalled at what the Conservative Party has become with one shocking decision after another all due to party being put before the good of the country. Having being a member for many years previously which I let lapse when I moved to Thailand It will take a lot to get me to vote for them again.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

Timetables were not mentioned on the referendum. The only mandate given by the majority was to leave.

 

You ignore my point, at the same time apparently absolving Cameron of responsibility, which I'm sure he was happy to release himself from. However, he pledged a referendum in the 2015 GE if negotiations with the EU on reforms turned out badly (which they did); that pledge gave him a GE win and majority without the Lib Dems. He also pledged to honour the result of the referendum and the only way he could do that was to stay on and see it through. Cameron got away with all this far too easily.  

 

Edited October 23, 2018 by nauseus

[nauseus]

27 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

So you don't want a Remainer overseeing the exit process but you do want to use a Remainers exit plan?

I want politicians to start keeping to their word and election manifestos!

 

Any successful exit plan is fine by me. 

[Orac]

Timetables were not mentioned on the referendum. The only mandate given by the majority was to leave.
 
You ignore my point, at the same time apparently absolving Cameron of responsibility, which I'm sure he was happy to release himself from. However, he pledged a referendum in the 2015 GE if negotiations with the EU on reforms turned out badly (which they did); that pledge gave him a GE win and majority without the Lib Dems. He also pledged to honour the result of the referendum and the only way he could do that was to stay on and see it through. Cameron got away with all this far too easily.  
 

My point was also that the referendum set no timetable - that was entirely down to TM and should not be put on Cameron’s head.

If you think I am trying to absolve Cameron you have misunderstood me as I think he must carry a fair proportion of the blame for the mess things are at the moment but, equally, TM must also take responsibility for what has gone on since she took on the leadership.

I have never been a fan of Cameron and voted for David Davies to be leader over DC when I had the opportunity though, in hindsight, not sure if he would have been any better.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, vinny41 said:

The option on the Ballot paper that stated leave the EU,  and we were all told that by ticking that option we would be leaving the EU the single market and the customs union in exactly the same way that if someone ticked the remain option that we mean remaining in the EU, Single Market and Customs Union

And others were told it didn'r mean that, and there would be a Free Trade Deal on par with the present arrangement plus all manner of other things. 

 

You can't be so selective.  The fact is there was a polyphonic message from Leave who promised everything to everyone.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

Told by David Cameron on the Andrew Marr Show, just prior to the referendum, he was very explicit about this.

And then refuted thereafter, and replaced by a super-duper free trade deal to be done in an afternoon.  I have previously posted numerous quotes.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

I have posted it twice already and I believe vinny has posted it.

And I have posted quotes from senior leavers who promised a replacement free trade deal. Face it, 'pie in the sky' promises were made to everyone.

[melvinmelvin]

39 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Timetables were not mentioned on the referendum. The only mandate given by the majority was to leave.

 

You ignore my point, at the same time apparently absolving Cameron of responsibility, which I'm sure he was happy to release himself from. However, he pledged a referendum in the 2015 GE if negotiations with the EU on reforms turned out badly (which they did); that pledge gave him a GE win and majority without the Lib Dems. He also pledged to honour the result of the referendum and the only way he could do that was to stay on and see it through. Cameron got away with all this far too easily.  

 

disagree strongly

 

UK should be very pleased that Cameron pissed off swiftly, well done Cameron

no point in having a PM screwing up such a project around

 

[vogie]

41 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

And I have posted quotes from senior leavers who promised a replacement free trade deal. Face it, 'pie in the sky' promises were made to everyone.

 

43 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

And then refuted thereafter, and replaced by a super-duper free trade deal to be done in an afternoon.  I have previously posted numerous quotes.

How can, and I am assuming you mean Cameron refute something when we have watched him say it. Maybe he was trying to scare people into voting remain by saying this, we don't know, but say it he did, you cannot unsay something once you've said it.

Edited October 23, 2018 by vogie