UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[tebee]

Interesting that Brexit, billed as way of restoring democracy and power to the people, is becoming a power grab by the executive - the Henry 8th powers on out side and now the EU commision. 

 

https://www.ft.com/content/425417d4-c1c2-11e8-95b1-d36dfef1b89a

 

 

[Stupooey]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

What online sources do you believe are more balanced overall?

TV forum? OK, mostly unbalanced, but unbalanced pretty equally.

[aright]

3 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

TV forum? OK, mostly unbalanced, but unbalanced pretty equally.

the younger generation get theirs from online sources which tend to be more balanced overall,

How many young people are there on TV forum?

[tebee]

5 minutes ago, aright said:

What online sources do you believe are more balanced overall?

 

Just now, Stupooey said:

TV forum? OK, mostly unbalanced, but unbalanced pretty equally.

 

I wasn't specifically thinking of the TV forum, but Stupooey make the point I was getting at - there are enough online news sources that if you use a few of them, you get a much better balance - of course if you choose that few from ones that support your already biased viewpoint then this doesn't work. 

 

My favorite analysis is found in the FT  - not in the articles, but in the comments on them. Good variety of views, from often very intelligent people who know how business works  and for whom politics is subservient to making money. 

[billd766]

4 minutes ago, aright said:

the younger generation get theirs from online sources which tend to be more balanced overall,

How many young people are there on TV forum?

 

I am only 74. Does that count as a young person?

[aright]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

 

I wasn't specifically thinking of the TV forum, but Stupooey make the point I was getting at - there are enough online news sources that if you use a few of them, you get a much better balance - of course if you choose that few from ones that support your already biased viewpoint then this doesn't work. 

 

My favorite analysis is found in the FT  - not in the articles, but in the comments on them. Good variety of views, from often very intelligent people who know how business works  and for whom politics is subservient to making money. 

 

"the younger generation get theirs from online sources which tend to be more balanced overall"

 

Can you name the balanced sources you claim young people read? I am happy to agree with you if you can provide sources of balanced opinion which I can form an opinion about. Your statement has no value without sources.

Are you seriously suggesting young people read the FT?

[melvinmelvin]

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

 

I wasn't specifically thinking of the TV forum, but Stupooey make the point I was getting at - there are enough online news sources that if you use a few of them, you get a much better balance - of course if you choose that few from ones that support your already biased viewpoint then this doesn't work. 

 

My favorite analysis is found in the FT  - not in the articles, but in the comments on them. Good variety of views, from often very intelligent people who know how business works  and for whom politics is subservient to making money. 

2

 

intelligent people who know how business works  and for whom politics is subservient to making money. 

 

I guess that is exactly the kind of people who are not needed in a Brexit discussion,

politicians, as well as others, should stay far far far away from such people

the most they can contribute to a value discussion is their concern for the degree of filling in their wallets

 

 

[aright]

7 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

I am only 74. Does that count as a young person?

A mere Spring Chicken Bill????

[melvinmelvin]

29 minutes ago, tebee said:

Interesting that Brexit, billed as way of restoring democracy and power to the people, is becoming a power grab by the executive - the Henry 8th powers on out side and now the EU commision. 

 

https://www.ft.com/content/425417d4-c1c2-11e8-95b1-d36dfef1b89a

 

 

 

thats UK politics for you,

use your vote differently

 

 

[Stupooey]

20 minutes ago, aright said:

A mere Spring Chicken Bill????

 

On that basis I must still be an egg.

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

I am only 74. Does that count as a young person?

You are so very old, it makes me to respect your age and lived life, even if I don't always agree with you politically ????

[tebee]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

intelligent people who know how business works  and for whom politics is subservient to making money. 

 

I guess that is exactly the kind of people who are not needed in a Brexit discussion,

politicians, as well as others, should stay far far far away from such people

the most they can contribute to a value discussion is their concern for the degree of filling in their wallets

 

 

But without a buoyant and fairly distributed economy, malcontent will grow, people will find minority groups to blame, and you get the rise of populist politics with easy but wrong answers. Without the recession of the 20's and 30's would the Nazis ever have come to power ?

 

So although I'm left of center politically, I also support the free market and people making money - but that money needs to be fairly distributed - it not being is why we have so many problems in the UK Today.

 

It's also why I think austerity is such a terrible idea - the cost of fixing later the political and social problems it causes is much greater than any short term savings.

 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

On 9/26/2018 at 10:09 AM, melvinmelvin said:

 

you tell me;

 

what can old Liz decide?

what can TM decide?

what can UK parliament decide?

zilch

 

they can ask for improvement of deal

they can ask for prolongation of talks period

they can ask for A50-out, we stay in EU

 

where is the power of decision? with the EU

 

 

 

 

yes, dick dast, I think this is pretty correct, that is actually how most of EEC/EU stipulations are designed,

all power on the EU side of the field

 

having thought of it I will moderate the above with one single case,

the UK parliament might have a formal say if the talks results in a deal

 

the deal is put on the table for the parliament to consider,

the parliament can say fine, go ahead

the parliament can say, no, not accepted

 

the latter being the case, so what?

the deal is ditched, UK leaves without any deal

 

thats how much formal say the UK has in this process

 

the UK government and people have just not yet understood it,

also quite common

happens every year with one or two EU countries, also happens within EFTA/EEA,

even after 30-40 years the full impact of EEC/EU legislation has not fully sunk in.

 

 

[adammike]

3 hours ago, aright said:

 

"the younger generation get theirs from online sources which tend to be more balanced overall"

 

Can you name the balanced sources you claim young people read? I am happy to agree with you if you can provide sources of balanced opinion which I can form an opinion about. Your statement has no value without sources.

Are you seriously suggesting young people read the FT?

I can't remember the name but a well known union leader back in the 70s claimed he put a rolled up copy of the sun in his back pocket to show solidarity with the members of his union,when he got home he read the FT to get the truth about what was really going on in the business world.

[CG1 Blue]

Another major global company expands it's UK presence 'despite' Brexit....

 

Long-suffering UK savers could soon see higher returns, as one of Wall Street's swankiest banks boosts its presence on this side of the Atlantic.

Goldman Sachs is well-known for its investment bank in London, but from Thursday it will also offer a savings account to members of the public.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45652906

[billd766]

4 hours ago, Stupooey said:

 

On that basis I must still be an egg.

 

Fried, boiled, poached or scrambled?

[My Thai Life]

3 hours ago, tebee said:

But without a buoyant and fairly distributed economy, malcontent will grow, people will find minority groups to blame, and you get the rise of populist politics with easy but wrong answers. Without the recession of the 20's and 30's would the Nazis ever have come to power ?

Easy wrong populist answers? That's how a Guardian writer describes Corbyn's conference speech.

 

"How he [Corbyn] will accomplish this, afford it, and prevail where others have failed, he did not say. But that’s the essence of populism: the promise of straightforward solutions to complex problems. It’s the formula that got Donald Trump into the Oval Office."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/26/jeremy-corbyn-labour-conference-speech-verdict-panel-liverpool

 

It's also worth noting the the Nazis were socialist populists. I've never been convinced by comparisons with the 30s. The dynamics of today are fundamentally different (but that requires a thesis, not 3 lines on Thai Visa).

Edited September 27, 2018 by My Thai Life

[CG1 Blue]

Reality continues to chip away at Project Fear. A few token staff moves for contingency, and that's about it. Event the numbers of staff moves for a 'hard Brexit' scenario are drastically falling...

 

 

LONDON (Reuters) - As few as 630 UK-based finance jobs have been shifted or created overseas with just six months to go before Brexit, a far lower total than banks said could move after Britain’s surprise vote to leave the European Union, according to a new Reuters survey.

Many bankers and politicians predicted after the June 2016 referendum that leaving the EU would prompt a mass exodus of jobs and business and deal a crippling blow to London’s position in global finance.

But as Brexit Day nears, the number of jobs that UK-based financial institutions say they expect to move in the event of a “hard” Brexit was around 5,800, just 500 more than the last survey in March, and with more firms responding. That compares to around 10,000 in the first survey in September 2017.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-city-exclusive/exclusive-with-six-months-to-go-before-brexit-630-finance-jobs-have-left-reuters-survey-idUKKCN1M60P8

[mommysboy]

25 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Reality continues to chip away at Project Fear. A few token staff moves for contingency, and that's about it. Event the numbers of staff moves for a 'hard Brexit' scenario are drastically falling...

 

 

LONDON (Reuters) - As few as 630 UK-based finance jobs have been shifted or created overseas with just six months to go before Brexit, a far lower total than banks said could move after Britain’s surprise vote to leave the European Union, according to a new Reuters survey.

Many bankers and politicians predicted after the June 2016 referendum that leaving the EU would prompt a mass exodus of jobs and business and deal a crippling blow to London’s position in global finance.

But as Brexit Day nears, the number of jobs that UK-based financial institutions say they expect to move in the event of a “hard” Brexit was around 5,800, just 500 more than the last survey in March, and with more firms responding. That compares to around 10,000 in the first survey in September 2017.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-city-exclusive/exclusive-with-six-months-to-go-before-brexit-630-finance-jobs-have-left-reuters-survey-idUKKCN1M60P8

 

The financial area could even benefit from a hard Brexit, though I doubt this goes for other sectors.

[My Thai Life]

55 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

The financial area could even benefit from a hard Brexit, though I doubt this goes for other sectors.

All sectors could benefit in the long-term, or disbenefit in the long term, depending on

> who is driving what policies for the UK

> the extent to which the EU survives its traumas

> world economy.

 

One thing is crystal clear: the EU's policy for "ever closer union" is incompatible with the UK's ideas of self-determination. The EU is a great idea that went wrong.

[aright]

9 hours ago, aright said:

 

"the younger generation get theirs from online sources which tend to be more balanced overall"

 

Can you name the balanced sources you claim young people read? I am happy to agree with you if you can provide sources of balanced opinion which I can form an opinion about. Your statement has no value without sources.

Are you seriously suggesting young people read the FT?

You made the claim? Can we have the answer please.

[tebee]

2 hours ago, aright said:

You made the claim? Can we have the answer please.

Hey - I have other things to do sometimes, keep your hair on !

 

The aggregators for a start

 

Apple news

Google news

 

Then the ones where you select your preferences yourself, but you still get a varied selection 

Rss feeds - readers like Newsblur 

Twitter

Facebook

reddit

 

Then the sites that generate their own content 

 

Huff post

Medium

The Conversation

 

The MSM sites 

 

BBC news 

Al Jazeera 

PBS

NYT

France 24

Bloomberg

Sky news 

All the UK paper sites

 

You can also check the veracity of what you read yourself

 

Google search of course

Snoops

Quora 

 

Like I said before, it's not one specific site, but the overall breath of the what you can read in less time than it takes to read a physical paper or watch the news on television a few times a day 

[rixalex]

14 hours ago, tebee said:

 

But do remainers become leavers as they grow older ?

 

I think the culture and values change would be too great.

 

I suspect the difference is most of the older generation have got their news from the mainstream media's what have been mostly anti-EU for years, while the younger generation get theirs from online sources which tend to be more balanced overall, although there are extremes of both sides if you want to choose them. If they are interested, they can conduct their own research online and make their own decision.

 

Of course confirmation bias will lead you to rely on sources that support your existing world view - I always read some that support the opposite of my views, but I'm probably an exception.      

 

 

Just more of the usual patronising stuff from you about how all the people who just happen to hold the same opinion as you, are the informed, well-read ones who have a balanced and intelligent view of the world, and all those whose opinion is different from you, are the old, misinformed, biased, brainwashed hasbeens.

 

If you really are as open minded as you claim, reading from sources that contradict your own viewpoint, it doesn't show from your utter lack of understanding and respect for those with a different opinion to you.

[nauseus]

14 hours ago, tebee said:

 

But do remainers become leavers as they grow older ?

 

I think the culture and values change would be too great.

 

I suspect the difference is most of the older generation have got their news from the mainstream media's what have been mostly anti-EU for years, while the younger generation get theirs from online sources which tend to be more balanced overall, although there are extremes of both sides if you want to choose them. If they are interested, they can conduct their own research online and make their own decision.

 

Of course confirmation bias will lead you to rely on sources that support your existing world view - I always read some that support the opposite of my views, but I'm probably an exception.      

 

 

 

I suspect that you are wrong. MSM certainly includes UK TV, which is almost all pro EU. 

[nauseus]

13 hours ago, tebee said:

But without a buoyant and fairly distributed economy, malcontent will grow, people will find minority groups to blame, and you get the rise of populist politics with easy but wrong answers. Without the recession of the 20's and 30's would the Nazis ever have come to power ?

 

So although I'm left of center politically, I also support the free market and people making money - but that money needs to be fairly distributed - it not being is why we have so many problems in the UK Today.

 

It's also why I think austerity is such a terrible idea - the cost of fixing later the political and social problems it causes is much greater than any short term savings.

 

 

 

Better to create long-term losings then? These of course would also create even worse long-term political and social problems.

[nauseus]

10 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

Another major global company expands it's UK presence 'despite' Brexit....

 

Long-suffering UK savers could soon see higher returns, as one of Wall Street's swankiest banks boosts its presence on this side of the Atlantic.

Goldman Sachs is well-known for its investment bank in London, but from Thursday it will also offer a savings account to members of the public.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45652906

 

Stay away then! ☠️

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

19 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

Wow, that's rich!

True.... The word you're searching for is 'true', not rich. ???? 

[sandyf]

20 hours ago, nauseus said:

It seems to be that your perception of reality is what has been distorted. 

Still trying to find a way out.

"Now maybe now you can explain to us why deceitful actions by the EU are so much more important to brexiteers than deceitful actions by the UK government."

[tebee]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

I suspect that you are wrong. MSM certainly includes UK TV, which is almost all pro EU. 

 

it's only pro EU from your viewpoint, most remainers see the BBC in particular as being pro leave

 

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, Stupooey said:

The net loss to Leave and the net gain to Remain would be just sufficient to cancel out the majority from 2016.

There wouldn't be much speculation if the government honoured its promise of lifetime votes for expats.

 

The biggest decision for the UK in recent times was based on 1.38 percent of the electorate. "Margin of error" is not in the brexiteer vocabulary.

Edited September 28, 2018 by sandyf