UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[welovesundaysatspace]

8 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

There was no soft brexit on the ballot, as you know. 

Same as there was no “leave the single market” on the ballot paper, as you know. 

[tebee]

9 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

There was no soft brexit on the ballot, as you know. You are getting very adept at changing the rules of your game to suit your agenda.

There was no hard no deal brexit on the ballot either 

[My Thai Life]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

There was no hard no deal brexit on the ballot either 

This is becoming farcical. There was a vote to leave the EU - in or out. The electorate voted out. Out cannot include FOM and FOM requires exiting the SM. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

13 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Out cannot include FOM and FOM requires exiting the SM. 

Where did it say so on the ballot paper? If I remember correctly, the ballot paper didn’t include anything regarding post-Brexit terms. 

Edited September 30, 2018 by welovesundaysatspace

[My Thai Life]

29 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

100% agree about uncertainty.  But that does make the Government's handling of Brexit seem quite deplorable to me.  I mean if a Tory Government is not good for protecting the economy, what is its use at all?

 

This Government did not have the bottle to say what it was going to do and then do it. It is weak leadership that has cost us.

 

Now, it is not in a position to do anything other than a no deal under poor circumstances.  Most importantly, it has proved untrustworthy, in the sense that it is weak and incompetent.  Unfortunately, that does not bode well for the stiff challenge ahead.

> The Tory government is split and led by a remainer. The Labour party is split and led by a leaver. The country is genuinely split. In this situation it is not really fair play to single out anyone for particular incompetence. May tried to square the circle - her advisers led her to believe the EU was on board, but it seems they were playing her. It would all have been much better handled by a leader who is actually a leaver. But that's history now.

> The government is weak because it is split. They are synonyms. 

> I would be surprised if there's a no deal outcome. But I am surprised that I cannot predict the outcome, because usually my private predictions are easily made and accurate.

> There is a challenge ahead that's for sure. It seems to me that there's a choice of a clean break (a free trade agreement) which gives certainty as to the objectives, and honours the referendum result, and has been proposed by the EU and  Rees-Mogg & co, or endless debate about what kind of final deal we should aim for, which is very bad for business, morale and patience. I don't see a great deal of competence on the Tory side, but I do see massive incompetence on the Labour side.

[tebee]

26 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

This is becoming farcical. There was a vote to leave the EU - in or out. The electorate voted out. Out cannot include FOM and FOM requires exiting the SM. 

It didn't include leaving the SM at the time of the referendum. If the majority of the people want to leave and a (different) majority want to stay in the SM why should we not do both? 

[bristolboy]

44 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

There was no soft brexit on the ballot, as you know. You are getting very adept at changing the rules of your game to suit your ever-shifting tactics.

There was no hard brexit either. There was only Brexit.

[aright]

44 minutes ago, tebee said:

There was no hard no deal brexit on the ballot either 

Precisely! There was only stay or leave on the ballot and the majority voted to leave. As long as we leave every other issue is just peripheral discussion.

[welovesundaysatspace]

9 minutes ago, aright said:

Precisely! There was only stay or leave on the ballot and the majority voted to leave. 

So leave the EU and agree on a deal that will allow you to stay in the single market. Referendum result respected. No hard Irish border. Economy not screwed. Actually negotiable with the EU. All issues solved. 

[billd766]

3 hours ago, oilinki said:

 

I don't understand why you keep on lying? MEP, Members of European Parliament, should have a ring, which says democratically elected members of the parliament.

 

When living in Europe, I'm allowed to cast my vote for who I wish to represent myself on the parliament. Can't you? I suppose you voted for Nigel Farage, who was MEP elected by British voters. 

 

EU MEPs are elected in, just like members of our local parliaments. 

 

Please stop saying Unelected again. That is actually rather offencive. Thank you. 

 

BTW I don't lie.

 

Who elected Barnier and the rest?

 

If Your country decides that they don't want the EU commissioners and decide to vote them out you need the consent and backing of the other 26 nations.

 

If you don't get it what can you do about it?

 

Euro MPs are elected by the country that they live in but without the majority of ALL the countries they cannot change anything that is put before them.

 

If a single country could do so then the UK delegates would have reformed the EU years ago.

 

No I didn't vote for Nigel Farage because I was not a member of his EU constituency. It may surprise to know that there are in fact 73 MEPs from the UK. Finland however has only 13 MEPs. Does that make Finland more or less important than the UK?

 

You can only vote for a particular member of the MEP if you live in the constituency that they represent. You cannot vote for an MEP of another country unless of course Finland has a special exemption which allows them to vote for ANY MEP in the EU.

 

This means that you can only vote for a candidate whose area you live in.

 

If you can quote me any links that prove me wrong and I will apologise.

 

If a moderator tells me not to use a term then I will do so. If the terms that I use upset you then please put me on your ignore list. I promise that I won't cry of throw my toys out of the pram or even spit my dummy across the room.

 

AFAIK you are not a moderator.

 

BTW

 

https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/net_payments_plummet_finland_drops_to_bottom_of_eu_contributor_list_in_2016/9916869

 

quote "Net payments plummet: Finland drops to bottom of EU contributor list in 2016

Last year Finland paid 1.8 billion euros to the European Union and received 1.5 billion euros in EU money in return. This means that Finland's net payments to the European Union fell to below 300 million euros in 2016, placing the Nordic country at the bottom of the EU member states contributor list for the year, alongside Italy."

 

Dated 4.11.2017 13:58 | updated 6.11.2017 10:50

 

Finland's net payments to the European Union fell by more than half last year, from what European Commission statistics estimate was 570 million euros in 2015 to 294 million euros in 2016.

This means that, once the books were balanced, the per capita contribution from Finland to the EU fell from 104 euros per person in 2015 to 54 euros per person in 2016.

This puts Finland in last place, alongside Italy, among the countries that were still contributions for the year. Finland's net payments were much smaller in 2016 than Sweden, the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Austria and the UK, for example.

The net payments figure is derived from difference between the money Finland pays into the EU and the revenue the country receives from the institution.

[aright]

3 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

 So leave the EU and agree on a deal that will allow you to stay in the single market. Referendum result respected. No hard Irish border. Economy not screwed. Actually negotiable with the EU. All issues solved. 

I don't think we could agree a deal which the EU would find acceptable.

Single market rules require the free movement from one EU member country to another of goods, people, services and capital. One big issue at the referendum was control of our borders which means controlled but not free movement of people.

[melvinmelvin]

9 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

So leave the EU and agree on a deal that will allow you to stay in the single market. Referendum result respected. No hard Irish border. Economy not screwed. Actually negotiable with the EU. All issues solved. 

 

could be done,

but would mean that UK would stay with all 4 freedoms

and continued EU legislative superiority and judicial superiority

thought it was important to the UK to avoid this

[aright]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

 

Yes I agree, but it means you can't use the referendum as a democratic mandate that we must leave the SM. If you do you are disenfranchising everybody that voted for a Soft Brexit.  

That's not in the least bit practical. it's the same as saying at a General Election not everyone agrees 100% with a political parties manifesto so the vast majority of people as a result are disenfranchised. The line has to be drawn some where and it lies with the victor. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

9 minutes ago, aright said:

One big issue at the referendum was control of our borders which means controlled but not free movement of people.

 

5 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

thought it was important to the UK to avoid this

The referendum was only about leaving the EU, not about any post-Brexit terms. Nowhere did the electorate vote against the free movement of people post Brexit. 

[My Thai Life]

Barnier and Tusk proposed a Free Trade Deal a long time ago. Rees-Mogg, Johnson & co too. We are already fully aligned, consequently it would be the shortest free trade deal negotiation between major economies in history.

[aright]

1 minute ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

 

The referendum was only about leaving the EU, not about any post-Brexit terms. Nowhere did the electorate vote against the free movement of people post Brexit. 

Agreed but you can't claim to have left the EU if you are still bound by their so called freedoms. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 minutes ago, aright said:

Agreed but you can't claim to have left the EU if you are still bound by their so called freedoms. 

Sure you can.

Step 1: Leave the EU.

Step 2: Agreement to stay in the single market.

[melvinmelvin]

3 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Barnier and Tusk proposed a Free Trade Deal a long time ago. Rees-Mogg, Johnson & co too. We are already fully aligned, consequently it would be the shortest free trade deal negotiation between major economies in history.

 

was that a FTA with or without all the nondesirable baggage?

if without, why has it not been pursued?

 

did they address the NI border?

 

(I am not sure, but I tend to feel that the UK demand for a non/soft-border between UK and Ireland

 is kinda totally unreasonable. I wonder, if Tory had done a wee bit better at the previous GE would that border

 still be a crucial issue?)

[tebee]

2 minutes ago, aright said:

That's not in the least bit practical. it's the same as saying at a General Election not everyone agrees 100% with a political parties manifesto so the vast majority of people as a result are disenfranchised. The line has to be drawn some where and it lies with the victor. 

But it isn't winner take all.

 

By that logic 52% want to leave the EU

 

75% of those whan a hard brexit so 39% of the total electorate

 

66% of those want no deal/wto terms so 26% of the total electorate

 

55% of them don't want to pay the exit bill so 14% of the total electorate

 

60% of them want to throw all EU citizens out of the country so 8% of the total electorate

 

So do we let this 8% control what we do? 

 

This is why you can't use a majority of a majority to determine policy 

 

 

[My Thai Life]

8 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Nowhere did the electorate vote against the free movement of people post Brexit. 

This is a farcical position that is only an issue to remainers on this forum, nowhere else. Ending FOM was a major part of the referendum debate. Check the history of any MSM outlet. Check the history of abuse on this forum from remainers to leavers. Leaving the EU means leaving the SM. Have you been sleeping for 3 years?

[My Thai Life]

Just now, tebee said:

But it isn't winner take all.

It was a winner take all on the way in.

It's a winner take all on the way out.

 

[tebee]

Just now, My Thai Life said:

This is a farcical position that is only an issue to remainers on this forum, nowhere else. Ending FOM was a major part of the referendum debate. Check the history of any MSM outlet. Check the history of abuse on this forum from remainers to leavers. Leaving the EU means leaving the SM. Have you been sleeping for 3 years?

 

 

It means that to a majority of leavers,not a majority of the country 

 

[My Thai Life]

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

It means that to a majority of leavers,not a majority of the country 

Your desperation and sophistry are increasing daily, and have no relevance whatsoever to the vote or the deal; you would be better off replanning your business affairs than letting off steam here.

Edited September 30, 2018 by My Thai Life

[welovesundaysatspace]

5 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Ending FOM was a major part of the referendum debate. (...) Leaving the EU means leaving the SM.

You say so, but no one cares what you think. That's not how democracy works. You wanted a referendum, so respect the referendum result rather than asserting what the people wanted. You cannot speak for the people.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2018 by welovesundaysatspace

[My Thai Life]

1 minute ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

You say so, but no one cares what you think. That's not how democracy works. You wanted a referendum, so respect the referendum result.

 

More abuse from a non-Brit with no personal stake in the result. Your grasp of British democracy is weak. And yes, you should respect the result. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, My Thai Life said:

More abuse from a non-Brit with no personal stake in the result. Your grasp of British democracy is weak. And yes, you should respect the result. 

Reading these comments, it feels to me that British understanding of democracy is weak. 

[My Thai Life]

1 minute ago, oilinki said:

Reading these comments, it feels to me that British understanding of democracy is weak. 

Lol. Read some history and see where modern democracy originated.

Edited September 30, 2018 by My Thai Life

[mommysboy]

45 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

So leave the EU and agree on a deal that will allow you to stay in the single market. Referendum result respected. No hard Irish border. Economy not screwed. Actually negotiable with the EU. All issues solved. 

 

It's probably the most pragmatic solution.  And so is WTO deal.  If put to the people, no one can argue.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Lol. Read some history and see where modern democracy originated.

Modern and 'modern'. There seems to be a difference. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 minute ago, My Thai Life said:

should respect the result. 

The result that nowhere talked about leaving the single market, only about leaving the EU.