UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[aright]

Therese's song

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNJVFloPIVA

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

I must be missing something here?

 

So you think there's nothing wrong with individual, british citizen tax payers losing their vote - even though they're still paying tax on their income?

 

Trying to shift the subject to the way things worked in the 19th century/women's right to vote, is far from a good counter-argument.....

 

I'd suggest that you stop digging your hole, and try a new approach.  i.e. 'arguing' in a sensible fashion.

 

on the contrary d d, continue digging and fall into it

 

[My Thai Life]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

Brexit in whatever form it takes is of course rather salient at the moment, but the over-riding concern for me is the Government: more precisely that it is incompetent in most respects.

Well I think few would disagree including many ardent Tories.

 

However, Brexit is probably the most complex international "negotiation" in our history, and there is no precedent for it anywhere in the world - no specific experience to draw from. It's the first time the withdrawal process has been applied. I can't think of any government that would be fully competent to do this.

 

As I've said a few times before, the main problems in the negotiations are that (1) the Tory party is divided and (2) the Tory party does not have a strong majority (3) the appointed EU bureaucrats are not empowered to negotiate.

 

May seems to be genuinely trying to respond to big business concerns by finding a way to stay in the Customs Union; Johnson & co are pushing for a Free Trade Agreement, which would actually deliver on the referendum result. These two approaches are not compatible.

 

The EU is divided too of course, over many things.

 

The Labour party seems to have very little competence at all at the senior level. I'd trust Corbyn and Abbot to organise a Students' Union protest on abc..xyz , but that's about it.

Edited October 4, 2018 by My Thai Life

[kwilco]

4 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

re Corbyn and no policy,

didn't he say that he would support a 2nd ref if that became an issue in parliament ?

...or did he? In fact he doesn't what a remain option on any referendum.

 

This really exemplifies how undemocratic referendums can be........ It's up to the authorities to decide what questions are asked.....very oftenfranchisement lleaving out those asked by a huge percentage of voters.

 

 

 

[sandyf]

19 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

So has the previous Labour governments of Blair and Brown who caused the problem in the first place.

No argument there Bill, but the common denominator is the UK government, and the EU takes the flak.

[kwilco]

17 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

on the contrary d d, continue digging and fall into it

 

Bit like Sunderland who voted to close their own factory

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, BwindiBoy said:

 

Please show me where I said that.

A fairly obvious implication - "How much tax did those one million pay to the UK Treasury during those 15 years"

[CG1 Blue]

11 hours ago, kwilco said:

It ain't rocket science....in the event of a hard Brexit ALL of IT's motor industry will reconsider their situation or just leave.

BMW is the latest and the Japanese industries no longer view UK as their gateway to Europe..... What the hell Sunderland thought would happen to Nissan is Amy's guess.

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/paris-motor-show-no-deal-brexit-and-we-ll-have-to-leave-warns-bmw-9jf7sr5sr

 

 

We already picked this (smoke and mirrors) story apart a few pages ago.  Keep up.

And who's Amy?

 

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, dunroaming said:

 

I did and so did/do the working age expats that I knew/know.  I am now an ex-ex-pat.  But all ex-pats are different and some will have strong ties to their home countries and some won't.  It is further complicated by the retired ex-pats who have decided to not live or contribute to their country of origin.  Their only real interest in their former country tends to be the value of their pensions and possible investments.  Apart from that the state of the potholes and the amount of soi dogs in the neighbourhood they now live in will have far more relevance.

 

I found that when I was an ex-pat, I felt far more patriotic than when I lived in the UK.  I followed my football team more closely and was very defensive when anyone attacked almost anything "British".   This was particularly prevalent when I lived in the USA and also Hong Kong. Like wise I would find myself chumming up with other Brits that, in the UK, I would have no common ground with at all.  Surprisingly they often turned into the closest friendships. 

 

My point is this.  I always had close ties to the UK when not living there through family, friends and business interests.  I always voted because it directly affected me, no matter where I lived.  But most of the ex-pats I met didn't have the connections I did and were fairly indifferent to what was happening back in Blighty.  Now with Brexit looming it appears that everyone is passionate about the country they have happily left behind.

Nothing to do with "connections" or "ties" - If you are drawing a pension, or any other income, sourced in the UK, you pay tax, as many of us on here have found out.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

Austerity is far from over.  Local authorities will have their budgets slashed next year.  Cuts in benefits will continue.

 

What she meant was Phase 1 was over, Phase 2 will be hidden under the brexit festival. How else will they pay for the cost of administering this fiasco. I don't think we ever found out how much the court case cost the taxpayer.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

I think that comment deserves the price as this week's most stupid comment.

If that is how UK understand EU, just cut the moorings and let the foggy islands

drift into the Atlantic and eventually sink.

There is no place in Europe for such lack of understanding.

 

no authority to negotiate? germans make cakes?

bah!

 

 

I think it's fair to say that THIS comment wins the prize for most condescending of the week.

 

It's a good job our 'foggy islands' were around to make a lone stand against a certain cake-baking group once the rest of our European cousins had capitulated some 78 years ago, wouldn't you agree? 

 

None of us would be able to survey the same European landscape we do today if it weren't for such events, so the pomposity and condescension of comments like yours deserve flagging IMO.

 

In any case, we're just about ready to cut the moorings with the EU anyway, don't worry. Pursuing our own destiny is something we've done more successfully than most for over a millennium. The population have changed for the worse in recent years I would concede, but knowing the British people as I do, we will turn these events to our advantage, on our own terms - that's the whole point of Brexit anyway. Time to leave and let our continental cohorts remain subjugated, until the whole experiment collapses, shouldn't be too long now. Here's to hoping anyway. 

Edited October 4, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Time to leave and let our continental cohorts remain subjugated, until the whole experiment collapses, shouldn't be too long now. Here's to hoping anyway. 

Why do you want EU to collapse?

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

I think it's fair to say that THIS comment wins the prize for most condescending of the week.

 

It's a good job our 'foggy islands' were around to make a lone stand against a certain cake-baking group once the rest of our European cousins had capitulated some 78 years ago, wouldn't you agree? 

 

None of us would be able to survey the same European landscape we do today if it weren't for such events, so the pomposity and condescension of comments like yours deserve flagging IMO.

 

In any case, we're just about ready to cut the moorings with the EU anyway, don't worry. Pursuing our own destiny is something we've done more successfully than most for over a millennia. The population have changed for the worse in recent years I would concede, but knowing the British people as I do, we will turn these events to our advantage, on our own terms - that's the whole point of Brexit anyway. Time to leave and let our continental cohorts remain subjugated, until the whole experiment collapses, shouldn't be too long. Here's to hoping anyway. 

 

Oh God, are we back to the war again? And British exceptionalism - did it actually ever exist beyond propaganda? The UK has existed in its current form for less than a century; whatever happened over the past millenia has nothing to do with Britishness, whatever that may be. 

 

Reports of the imminent demise of the EU have been almost as frequent as those predicting the negative impact of Brexit; the only difference being that none of the former has come to pass.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 minute ago, oilinki said:

Why do you want EU to collapse?

 

When I say I look forward to its collapse, I don't mean I wish to see heartache, strife or bloodshed for our European neighbours whom I hold in high regard and only wish the best for. I await the collapse of the EU for the multitude of reasons I have already stated throughout this ongoing thread, oilinki. I don't want to see anymore debt colonies, ruined economies, subjugated puppet-governments, a ruinous currency union, huge unemployment, social disorder and immigration crises, among other woes. 

 

The EU is both arbiter and creator of these issues and while it has a precious few benefits for some in Europe, these are wholly outweighed by the myriad of negatives. I have made my points very clearly about these time and again, so I shan't be explaining my reasoning any further. It's all written on previous pages for anyone to analyse and debate.

 

I wish to see democracy return to nation state Europe. Self determination and sovereign governance. Simple as that. I fear what will happen if this doesn't come to pass and we continue with this flawed EU experiment. The multitude of fundamental problems we've seen continent wide are but a prelude to what will come, IMO.

 

[damascase]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

.........

However, Brexit is probably the most complex international "negotiation" in our history, and there is no precedent for it anywhere in the world - no specific experience to draw from. It's the first time the withdrawal process has been applied. I can't think of any government that would be fully competent to do this.

Any other government would have had at least a plan, something the UK clearly hadn’t. I remember the images of the first Brexit meeting in Brussels, where the EU negotiator came into the room with a big file, while his UK counterpart arrived literally empty-handed. Very symbolic, as we know now.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

22 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Oh God, are we back to the war again? And British exceptionalism - did it actually ever exist beyond propaganda? The UK has existed in its current form for less than a century; whatever happened over the past millenia has nothing to do with Britishness, whatever that may be. 

 

Reports of the imminent demise of the EU have been almost as frequent as those predicting the negative impact of Brexit; the only difference being that none of the former has come to pass.

 

I'm afraid to say the two world wars have shaped our modern world and so are never very far from many of the reasons behind modern events or the current landscape. Maybe you should read up on it a bit?

 

'British exceptionalism' is a term you've just added to the conversation. I never said anything of the sort. I simply stated historic fact. Something you clearly feel uncomfortable about.

 

But, how you can disregard many hundreds of years of formative history leading down to the present day and flippantly dismiss the fact that it has everything to do with our current culture is beyond me.

 

Just because the UK was formed (as it exists today) in 1922, it doesn't diminish or truncate the long, turbulent and illustrious history of our constituent countries, their ups and downs or their joint ventures. You're clearly someone who is overtly embarrassed of the nation and its past. What a shame. 

Edited October 4, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Jip99]

4 minutes ago, damascase said:

Any other government would have had at least a plan, something the UK clearly hadn’t. I remember the images of the first Brexit meeting in Brussels, where the EU negotiator came into the room with a big file, while his UK counterpart arrived literally empty-handed. Very symbolic, as we know now.

 

 

Pity that big file didn’t contain the one thing that was needed - the EU blueprint for exit that should have been attached to Article 50.

[melvinmelvin]

30 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

I think it's fair to say that THIS comment wins the prize for most condescending of the week.

 

It's a good job our 'foggy islands' were around to make a lone stand against a certain cake-baking group once the rest of our European cousins had capitulated some 78 years ago, wouldn't you agree? 

 

None of us would be able to survey the same European landscape we do today if it weren't for such events, so the pomposity and condescension of comments like yours deserve flagging IMO.

 

In any case, we're just about ready to cut the moorings with the EU anyway, don't worry. Pursuing our own destiny is something we've done more successfully than most for over a millennium. The population have changed for the worse in recent years I would concede, but knowing the British people as I do, we will turn these events to our advantage, on our own terms - that's the whole point of Brexit anyway. Time to leave and let our continental cohorts remain subjugated, until the whole experiment collapses, shouldn't be too long now. Here's to hoping anyway. 

 

good thing you find my comment condescending,

shows there might be hope for you

 

no, not cut moorings to EU, cut moorings to Europe and drift across the Atlantic,

careful so you don't run into Ireland on the way

 

foookin cant negotiate - germans make cakes

no place for crap nations like that in Europe

 

[tebee]

24 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Oh God, are we back to the war again? And British exceptionalism - did it actually ever exist beyond propaganda? The UK has existed in its current form for less than a century; whatever happened over the past millenia has nothing to do with Britishness, whatever that may be. 

 

Reports of the imminent demise of the EU have been almost as frequent as those predicting the negative impact of Brexit; the only difference being that none of the former has come to pass.

 

 

Brexit has made the EU stronger 

 

https://www.economist.com/europe/2018/09/29/how-the-brexit-talks-demonstrate-the-eus-underlying-resilience?utm_source=quora&utm_medium=referral

[tebee]

6 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Pity that big file didn’t contain the one thing that was needed - the EU blueprint for exit that should have been attached to Article 50.

 

 

Article 50 only provides for the exit terms to be agreed - we have done that already  - on pretty much the EU's terms that were in those files. 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

7 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

good thing you find my comment condescending,

shows there might be hope for you

 

no, not cut moorings to EU, cut moorings to Europe and drift across the Atlantic,

careful so you don't run into Ireland on the way

 

foookin cant negotiate - germans make cakes

no place for crap nations like that in Europe

 

 

Touched a nerve have I?

 

Europe has been around a loooong time before the lamentable EU and it will be around long after it's overdue disintegration. And...the UK will remain part of it, as much as sourpuss types like yourself might wish otherwise. That's geography I'm afraid.

 

In any case, I'm mildly interested to know which 'non crap nation' you hail from? One that Britain liberated not so long ago, most likely. Hence the condescension accusation. 

Belgium? Or somewhere less foggy? ???? 

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CG1 Blue]

I'd be interested to hear latest opinions on TM's proposed deal, with the key elements of the Chequers agreement being:

 

- No more substantial payments into the EU

- Common rulebook for goods, avoiding border friction

- The above meaning no hard border and no Irish Sea border for NI

- No more freedom of movement

- Out of the CFP

- Out of the CAP

- End of the ECJ’s role in UK affairs

- In future the UK parliament would have the ability to further remove us from the EU, e.g. scrap elements of the common rulebook (with consequences)

 

My fear would be that this is the opening gambit from May, meaning that the final negotiated version would have further compromises on our side.

Presumably the EU would never agree to all of this, because it doesn't 'punish' the UK enough.

 

Remainers and Leavers -  how do you feel about Chequers now we're another few weeks closer to the deadline? Am I the only one who thinks it looks like a decent compromise?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by CG1 Blue

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

15 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I'd be interested to hear latest opinions on TM's proposed deal, with the key elements of the Chequers agreement being:

 

- No more substantial payments into the EU

- Common rulebook for goods, avoiding border friction

- The above meaning no hard border and no Irish Sea border for NI

- No more freedom of movement

- Out of the CFP

- Out of the CAP

- End of the ECJ’s role in UK affairs

- In future the UK parliament would have the ability to further remove us from the EU, e.g. scrap elements of the common rulebook (with consequences)

 

My fear would be that this is the opening gambit from May, meaning that the final negotiated version would have further compromises on our side.

Presumably the EU would never agree to all of this, because it doesn't 'punish' the UK enough.

 

Remainers and Leavers -  how do you feel about Chequers now we're another few weeks closer to the deadline? Am I the only one who thinks it looks like a decent compromise?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I feel all of the UK being outside of the CM should be included and I would second your concerns over an 'opening gambit' being eroded to result in less favourable terms over time. Besides that caveat the above could be a half decent compromise and would certainly reflect what many people voted for when they voted OUT. Further disentangling ourselves from EEA/EU rules over time shouldn't result in 'punishment' either, if it did, that sword could become double-edged as we (with any common sense) recognise. Whether or not the EU would go for this on paper and not try to enforce more punitive terms is any one's guess at the moment.

 

If it did play hardball and insist on terms that were unfavourable and counter-intuitive to an actual Brexit, the UK must hold firm and should probably continue ahead with a hard Brexit. Just my opinion.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Jip99]

24 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

 

Article 50 only provides for the exit terms to be agreed - we have done that already  - on pretty much the EU's terms that were in those files. 

 

 

Unsurprisingly, you have missed my point.

 

 

If I join a golf club, I join according to their predetermined set of rules; if I leave that golf club I exit in accordance with their predetermined rules.

 

The EU is just a large golf club.

[Jip99]

24 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

 

Article 50 only provides for the exit terms to be agreed - we have done that already  - on pretty much the EU's terms that were in those files. 

 

 

Unsurprisingly, you have missed my point.

 

 

If I join a golf club, I join according to their predetermined set of rules; if I leave that golf club I exit in accordance with their predetermined rules.

 

The EU is just a large golf club.

[damascase]

13 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I'd be interested to hear latest opinions on TM's proposed deal, with the key elements of the Chequers agreement being:

 

- No more substantial payments into the EU

- Common rulebook for goods, avoiding border friction

- The above meaning no hard border and no Irish Sea border for NI

- No more freedom of movement

- Out of the CFP

- Out of the CAP

- End of the ECJ’s role in UK affairs

- In future the UK parliament would have the ability to further remove us from the EU, e.g. scrap elements of the common rulebook (with consequences)

 

My fear would be that this is the opening gambit from May, meaning that the final negotiated version would have further compromises on our side.

Presumably the EU would never agree to all of this, because it doesn't 'punish' the UK enough.

 

Remainers and Leavers -  how do you feel about Chequers now we're another few weeks closer to the deadline? Am I the only one who thinks it looks like a decent compromise?

 

To what would the EU have to agree? They cannot and will not stop the UK from leaving so the UK is going to have its desired Brexit. Anything else is about future relations and those are a completely separate matter. Do not blame the EU for not taking seriously any proposals that would lead to the UK benefitting from an entity to which they do not want to belong. Brexit is Brexit, remember?

[damascase]

8 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Unsurprisingly, you have missed my point.

 

 

If I join a golf club, I join according to their predetermined set of rules; if I leave that golf club I exit in accordance with their predetermined rules.

 

The EU is just a large golf club.

But you DID exit in accordance with the predeterminated rules - or would you rather have the relationship post-exit included in these rules? Anybody who wants to leave should decide about his own future, shouldn’t he?

Edited October 4, 2018 by damascase

[Jip99]

2 minutes ago, damascase said:

But you DID exit in accordance with the predeterminated rules - or would you rather have the relationship post-exit included in these rules? Anybody who wants to leave should decide about his own future, shouldn’t he?

 

 

This is where we differ.

 

If the EU can construct rules, and Article 50, for all members - it should also construct the terms for leaving/future relationship. That cannot be left to individual member states to determine.

[damascase]

1 minute ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

This is where we differ.

 

If the EU can construct rules, and Article 50, for all members - it should also construct the terms for leaving/future relationship. That cannot be left to individual member states to determine.

Why not? I can almost hear the uproar if the EU would unilaterally prescribe the future relationship, the very reason for Brexit being that the UK wants to determine its own future.............

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

I think it's fair to say that THIS comment wins the prize for most condescending of the week.

 

It's a good job our 'foggy islands' were around to make a lone stand against a certain cake-baking group once the rest of our European cousins had capitulated some 78 years ago, wouldn't you agree? 

 

None of us would be able to survey the same European landscape we do today if it weren't for such events, so the pomposity and condescension of comments like yours deserve flagging IMO.

 

In any case, we're just about ready to cut the moorings with the EU anyway, don't worry. Pursuing our own destiny is something we've done more successfully than most for over a millennium. The population have changed for the worse in recent years I would concede, but knowing the British people as I do, we will turn these events to our advantage, on our own terms - that's the whole point of Brexit anyway. Time to leave and let our continental cohorts remain subjugated, until the whole experiment collapses, shouldn't be too long now. Here's to hoping anyway. 

 

Only with bold, visionary leadership.