UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[tebee]

So vote leave and leave EU cheated in the referendum campaign - how can we consider the referendum result to be legitimate?

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/james-cusick-adam-ramsay/met-police-stall-brexit-campaign-investigations-claiming-polit

 

[vinny41]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

On who's authority did Cameron's government state the referendum would be binding? Not mine.

If that is your case for ignoring the 2016 EU referendum

Maybe you also want to ignore the Referendum Act 1975

The Act legislated for a non-binding referendum to be held in the United Kingdom on Thursday 5 June 1975 on the issue of continuing membership of the EC and the EEC (the Common Market), which was to be a single majority vote, to be overseen by an appointed "Chief counting officer" who would declare the final result for the United Kingdom. As there was no previous precedent for the holding of any such plebiscite across the United Kingdom the Act also set out its procedure and format.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendum_Act_1975

[Kieran00001]

34 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

 According to figures from research company JATO, in the first quarter of 2018 the share of UK diesel sales fell to just 33%, down from a peak of 49% in 2014. With diesels accounting for 94% of Land Rover’s sales last year, that is certainly going to hit the brand hard. That said, Jaguar and Land Rover both offer petrol engines, so there should be little to stop JLR following the trend away from diesels.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/analysis-challenges-facing-jaguar-land-rover

The Castle Bromwich Assembly Plant builds the following models Jaguar XE,Jaguar XF,Jaguar XJ, and the Jaguar F-Type 

with both diesel engines and petrol engines

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Bromwich_Assembly

Both diesel engine and petrol engines are produced at a seperate plant

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_Manufacturing_Centre

 

94% of Land Rover sales and which are assembled in their Solihull plant are diesel, and that is a part of the reason for their two week shut down and their redundancies.  But what percentage of Jaguars are diesel?  Not so many!  So why is the slump in diesel being blamed for the 3 day week at Castle Bromwich?

[vinny41]

9 minutes ago, tebee said:

So vote leave and leave EU cheated in the referendum campaign - how can we consider the referendum result to be legitimate?

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/james-cusick-adam-ramsay/met-police-stall-brexit-campaign-investigations-claiming-polit

 

Electoral Commission 'misinterpreted' Vote Leave expenses, court rules

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45519676

 

It would appear the Electoral Commission judgement was incorrect

[brewsterbudgen]

If that is your case for ignoring the 2016 EU referendum
Maybe you also want to ignore the Referendum Act 1975
The Act legislated for a non-binding referendum to be held in the United Kingdom on Thursday 5 June 1975 on the issue of continuing membership of the EC and the EEC (the Common Market), which was to be a single majority vote, to be overseen by an appointed "Chief counting officer" who would declare the final result for the United Kingdom. As there was no previous precedent for the holding of any such plebiscite across the United Kingdom the Act also set out its procedure and format.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendum_Act_1975

It's common knowledge that referenda in the UK are non-binding. The result has to be implemented by parliament, but can be rejected or changed by parliament too. If parliament rejects any of the Brexit deals they are likely to put it to the people again. As Gordon Brown said yesterday, another vote is inevitable.

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[melvinmelvin]

17 minutes ago, Grouse said:

On who's authority did Cameron's government state the referendum would be binding? Not mine.

Grouse,

strictly speaking, Cameron was not in need of your authority, he was the boss.

The boss status was given to him by the previous GE.

 

[melvinmelvin]

5 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

It's common knowledge that referenda in the UK are non-binding. The result has to be implemented by parliament, but can be rejected or changed by parliament too. If parliament rejects any of the Brexit deals they are likely to put it to the people again. As Gordon Brown said yesterday, another vote is inevitable.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

not easy in UK these days

 

former PM; another vote is inevitable

current PM; another vote is a big no no

 

[vinny41]

6 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

It's common knowledge that referenda in the UK are non-binding. The result has to be implemented by parliament, but can be rejected or changed by parliament too. If parliament rejects any of the Brexit deals they are likely to put it to the people again. As Gordon Brown said yesterday, another vote is inevitable.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

And no doubt the people demanding another Referendum will also be demanding that to reverse brexit or cancel it will required a turnout of at least 80% of the eligible voters and a supermajority of 80/20

[brewsterbudgen]

 
not easy in UK these days
 
former PM; another vote is inevitable
current PM; another vote is a big no no
 

I doubt Theresa May will still be PM by then. She'll go once her deals have been rejected. Another vote will happen because a majority in parliament will realise it's in the country's interest.

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[tebee]

Sir Ivan Rogers latest speech - Brexit as a revolutionary movement seeking a genuine rupture with the ancien regime. 
 

He suggests that the revolution is entirely separate from the 52 percent of the public who thought they were voting for Brexit. 

 

Certainly the public had multiple grievances with the ancien regime, many of which were very well warranted and which had been building for many years. They hoped Brexit might help provide some answers - or at least they felt Brexit could not make things any worse than they already were. ( they were wrong!) 

 

But there is another Brexit, the revolutionary movement, that is an elites project for a regime change, led primarily by entirely establishment figures, often masquerading as non-establishment ones, and what those people believed is what Brexit was all about. 

 

Those who drove (and are still driving) Brexit politically are clearly not seeking incremental change. Most wanted, and want, a radically different UK, and some want a radically different - or even, no - EU. There was never a version of the EU to which the other 27 could have agreed with which the bulk of the leading advocates of Brexit could have been content. 

 

So it was necessary to force a regime change to achieve their ends - This is what Brexit is really about - In peculiar to what we will call the "ultras" and their fellow travellers - they wanted, and want, a radical and rapid rupture. The "honourable exceptions", says Sir Ivan, were essentially ignored by the majority of the Brexit lobby. 

 

This he suggests, leads to "the curious paradox" of those who believe that the EU had inserted itself into virtually every nook and cranny of the country's social and economic life - a proposition with which he would also rather agree. Yet these same people believe that all these strings could be cut extremely rapidly, and that nothing would go awry for the UK. 

 

We live, and have lived for some time, in a comprehensive regulatory union, but despite wanting to leave it, we struggle at political level to understand what that means. 

For the revolutionaries, this is all written off as the preoccupations of ghastly incumbent multinational CEOs, who themselves, we are told regularly, do not understand their own businesses’ business models as well as the gurus of the revolution. And therefore need, like their trade federations, to be ignored and/or replaced, presumably by corporate titans who spontaneously align with the revolution. 

 

This, Sir Ivan observes, sounds rather more like Mussolini style corporatism than it does the free market economics to which we are told the revolution is wedded. 

 

 

 

https://share.trin.cam.ac.uk/sites/public/Comms/Rogers_brexit_as_revolution.pdf

[tebee]

17 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Electoral Commission 'misinterpreted' Vote Leave expenses, court rules

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45519676

 

It would appear the Electoral Commission judgement was incorrect

No, that ruling was that the Vote Leave expenses where still  illegal, but that advice previously given to Vote Leave about those expenses was incorrect.

[vinny41]

16 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

94% of Land Rover sales and which are assembled in their Solihull plant are diesel, and that is a part of the reason for their two week shut down and their redundancies.  But what percentage of Jaguars are diesel?  Not so many!  So why is the slump in diesel being blamed for the 3 day week at Castle Bromwich?

I dont think you understand Solihull like Castle Bromwich is an Assembly plant as the vehicles go down the assembly lines either a petrol engine or a diesel engine is fitted depending on the customer requirements, all vehicles are technical sold either to a dealer or a end customer before they leave the factory

Regarding the Solihull plant is closing for 2 weeks from October 22nd nothing to do with Brexit this time its China

The biggest blow came from its major Chinese market, down more than 46 per cent, blamed on 'ongoing market uncertainty' from import duty changes and trade tension with the USA.

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/business/2018/10/08/jaguar-land-rover-announces-two-week-shutdown-at-solihull-plant/

[melvinmelvin]

32 minutes ago, tebee said:

So vote leave and leave EU cheated in the referendum campaign - how can we consider the referendum result to be legitimate?

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/james-cusick-adam-ramsay/met-police-stall-brexit-campaign-investigations-claiming-polit

 

 

dunno tebee, but my gut feeling is that most of this stuff is best forgotten

you will probably never manage to clean this up nicely to all parties satisfaction

lots of investigation may result in one or two scapegoats being hanged - so what?

 

sweep it under the carpet - cut losses - move on - have a Belhaven

 

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

what does the chief DUP Chick say? more interesting than Barnier and May

 

Quite, certainly some strong rhetoric.

 

The Democratic Unionist Party says it is ready to block the budget and potentially topple Theresa May if she compromises further on Brexit.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dup-theresa-may-brexit-compromise-deal-chequers-conservative-government-a8577561.html

 

In a warning shot to Ms May, DUP MPs failed to back the government in voting against an amendment to an Agriculture Bill on Wednesday.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-live-updates-theresa-may-dup-conservatives-deal-irish-border-mp-uk-eu-leave-a8578461.html

[tebee]

37 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

Grouse,

strictly speaking, Cameron was not in need of your authority, he was the boss.

The boss status was given to him by the previous GE.

 

He still didn't have authority to change the constitution all on his own. 

[melvinmelvin]

Just now, tebee said:

He still didn't have authority to change the constitution all on his own. 

no,

parliament will do the dirty work for him

[sandyf]

33 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

And no doubt the people demanding another Referendum will also be demanding that to reverse brexit or cancel it will required a turnout of at least 80% of the eligible voters and a supermajority of 80/20

Criminals are entitled to "beyond reasonable doubt", in civil cases 6 out of 8 jurors.

It would appear that referendum issues are perceived to be of significantly less importance.

[tebee]

1 minute ago, melvinmelvin said:

no,

parliament will do the dirty work for him

But parliament specifically did not change the constitution for the referendum ! 

[sandyf]

What the Irish think does not really count for a lot.

 

In a joint statement the Northern Ireland branch of the CBI and its Irish equivalent Ibec said “a comprehensive customs union between the UK and the EU would help address some of the complex issues presented by Brexit”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-brexit-customs-union-remain-irish-border-eu-leave-northern-ireland-republic-business-a8579301.html

[melvinmelvin]

11 minutes ago, tebee said:

But parliament specifically did not change the constitution for the referendum ! 

sorry, I'm lost - totally

better stop now - guess we are exchanging views on different things - like grapes and durian

my  thinking; parliament may change const., if needed, post referendum - not pre

never mind

 

[tebee]

4 hours ago, vinny41 said:

And the Goverment gave the decision to the people and stated 

This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide

 

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

On who's authority did Cameron's government state the referendum would be binding? Not mine.

 

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

Grouse,

strictly speaking, Cameron was not in need of your authority, he was the boss.

The boss status was given to him by the previous GE.

 

 We were originally talking about changing the constitution so the referendum was binding 

[vinny41]

21 minutes ago, tebee said:

But parliament specifically did not change the constitution for the referendum ! 

The United Kingdom does not have a codified constitution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_Kingdom

[tebee]

4 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

The United Kingdom does not have a codified constitution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_Kingdom

Yes, but it has a constitution based on cumulative acts of parliament and judicial precedent which is legally binding - so you can't just change it on a whim - would you want to live in the sort of country where it could be changed on a whim?

[vinny41]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

Yes, but it has a constitution based on cumulative acts of parliament and judicial precedent which is legally binding - so you can't just change it on a whim - would you want to live in the sort of country where it could be changed on a whim?

It was clear that when the Goverment stated "This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide"

I would imagine there would have been uproar if the result went in remain favour and the Goverment just ignored the result and stated We leaving

[tebee]

Just now, vinny41 said:

It was clear that when the Goverment stated "This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide"

I would imagine there would have been uproar if the result went in remain favour and the Goverment just ignored the result and stated We leaving

But that same government wrote the legal basis for the referendum, which said it was not binding  - so they told those who want to hear that it was binding that it was binding and those who wanted to hear that it wasn't, that it wasn't binding. 

 

May I introduce you to the fact that you don't seem to have comprehended so far in you life: that politicians lie sometimes ?

[kwilco]

"The Government will implement what you decide" - this is the classic statement of dictators who try to legitimise their manipulations (i.e. referenda etc) "in the name of the people" - that is their claim 100%.

 

It has proved a very effective method of sucking people in - QED

Edited October 12, 2018 by kwilco

[kwilco]

46 minutes ago, tebee said:

But parliament specifically did not change the constitution for the referendum ! 

You clearly don't understand the nature of the UK's constitution. It's unwritten - or at least not in one place - and runs on precedence.

Edited October 12, 2018 by kwilco

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, kwilco said:

"The Government will implement what you decide" - this is the classic statement of dictators who try to legitimise their manipulations (i.e. referenda etc) "in the name of the people" - that is their claim 100%

Have you got a link to a dictator saying this and are you saying that David Cameron is a dictator, your posts get more rediculous by the day.

[kwilco]

Just now, vogie said:

Have you got a link to a dictator saying this and are you saying that David Cameron is a dictator, your posts get more rediculous by the day.

Possibly the most facile comment of the day.....do you really not understand the argument?

[vogie]

Just now, kwilco said:

Possibly the most facile comment of the day.....do you really not understand the argument?

Do you really understand my question to you, of course you don't, you don't even know what you are posting most of the time. All you post is constant flame.