UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[damascase]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Your examples are of dictatorships, which more closely resembles the way the EU is run.

A comment like this only helps to emphasize your ignorance about the EU.

Edited October 22, 2018 by damascase

[mommysboy]

5 hours ago, rixalex said:

Democratic decisions can indeed be changed but that's not what we are talking about here. We are talking about a democratic process in which the whole voting population was involved, being ignored. That's something quite different. When has that ever happened before in Britain?



Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

It's not being ignored. The Government has had sufficient time to implement Brexit but has failed. As has been said the mandate was also ill-defined, and has proven undeliverable. 

 

Circumstances change, and of course we change our minds accordingly.

 

The envisaged deal seems not to have materialised- nobody willingly chooses a bad deal.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

in particular May's insistence that her way is the only way, but in more general terms the Brexiters instistance that the result is unassailable. "Yes I know I told you we were buying a new 5 bedroomed mansion and what we are getting is a 1 roomed tin shack at twice the price, but the family voted to do this democratically, so we must go through with the purchase"   

Nobody promised me or anybody else a 5 bedroomed mansion or a tent on the beach for that matter, David Cameron made it quite clear that the options were to leave the EU or remain tied to it. He also made it quite clear that leaving meant coming out of the single market too. 

 

[tebee]

Just now, transam said:

Good grief.....????

Well brexit has gone from "sunlit upland+land of milk and honey" to "it probably won't be a Mad Max style armageddon" via  " there might be some economic benefits in 30 to 50 years" 

 

So how is this brexit fulfilling the referendum mandate when it is not what was promised ?

[tebee]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

Nobody promised me or anybody else a 5 bedroomed mansion or a tent on the beach for that matter, David Cameron made it quite clear that the options were to leave the EU or remain tied to it. He also made it quite clear that leaving meant coming out of the single market too. 

 

You were promised 350 million a week for the NHS - I don't see  much mention of this these days?

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

Democracy did not end forever with one vote - if I feel something is wrong or the result was obtained by illegitimate means it is my democratic right to oppose it in any way I can. 

 

If you are getting fed up with the opposition now , just wait until after we do actually  brexit and everything goes pear shaped -  you be hearing so many cries of " I told you so!"

I'm sure that everyone agrees that those who disagree with the referendum result are clearly entitled to campaign to return to the eu - once the govt. has delivered on the original referendum result!

[transam]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

You were promised 350 million a week for the NHS - I don't see  much mention of this these days?

Well set up a "hot line" with the PM......????

 

[transam]

5 minutes ago, tebee said:

Well brexit has gone from "sunlit upland+land of milk and honey" to "it probably won't be a Mad Max style armageddon" via  " there might be some economic benefits in 30 to 50 years" 

 

So how is this brexit fulfilling the referendum mandate when it is not what was promised ?

You are talking out of your EU conversion thingy..????

[tebee]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm sure that everyone agrees that those who disagree with the referendum result are clearly entitled to campaign to return to the eu - once the govt. has delivered on the original referendum result!

There is no obligation that MP must deliver what the public voted for - remember this is the same British public that voted to name a ship "boaty macBoatface" - I don't see a ship called that now? 

[transam]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

There is no obligation that MP must deliver what the public voted for - remember this is the same British public that voted to name a ship "boaty macBoatface" - I don't see a ship called that now? 

Perhaps stop smoking that stuff....????

[vogie]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

You were promised 350 million a week for the NHS - I don't see  much mention of this these days?

I hope you know as well as I do that it doesn't matter how much you pump into the NHS it is never enough, it is the biggest abused institution in the land, when are people going to admit it is a failed project. All it does is allow political parties to mudsling at each other, oh and remainers, it's like your 'get out of jail free card'

You live in France, I've lived in France and the hospitals there are far superior to anything we have to offer, maybe because their citizens are expected to pay a little towards their treatment, when you have to pay a little you tend not to abuse the system.

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, rixalex said:

Democratic decisions can indeed be changed but that's not what we are talking about here. We are talking about a democratic process in which the whole voting population was involved, being ignored. That's something quite different. When has that ever happened before in Britain?



Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

You were not ignored

 

Your government has tried hard to deliver what you wanted while minimising the harm that will result

 

The referendum was advisory; parliament is sovereign no matter what Cameron may have you believe

[dick dasterdly]

8 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

It's not being ignored. The Government has had sufficient time to implement Brexit but has failed. As has been said the mandate was also ill-defined, and has proven undeliverable. 

 

Circumstances change, and of course we change our minds accordingly.

 

The envisaged deal seems not to have materialised- nobody willingly chooses a bad deal.

The mandate was very clearly defined.  'Leave the eu/remain within the eu'.  Only remainers are trying to pretend anything different.

 

I do agree that leavers envisioned a FTA being negotiated, and even paying to agree this quickly - but both sides preferred to concentrate on other issues.....  And money paid to the eu was at the top of the agenda (IIRC) -  and the brit. govt. agreed to the eu agenda ???? ????!

Edited October 22, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[nauseus]

16 minutes ago, damascase said:

A comment like this only helps to emphasize your ignorance about the EU.

As far as I am concerned, I have become rather well informed about the EU. You should try it. 

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

Looks like he was determined to remain to me.

Brexit has desensitised the UK. It now seems to be accepted that rudeness is OK. Such a shame.

[dick dasterdly]

10 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

It's not being ignored. The Government has had sufficient time to implement Brexit but has failed. As has been said the mandate was also ill-defined, and has proven undeliverable. 

 

Circumstances change, and of course we change our minds accordingly.

 

The envisaged deal seems not to have materialised- nobody willingly chooses a bad deal.

"The Government has had sufficient time to implement Brexit but has failed."

 

I agree with this part of your post.

 

Which only makes it clear that the brit. govt. was (and still is) desperately searching for a way to implement 'leave in name only' - without destroying their chances at the next GE.

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, tebee said:

Democracy did not end forever with one vote - if I feel something is wrong or the result was obtained by illegitimate means it is my democratic right to oppose it in any way I can. 

 

If you are getting fed up with the opposition now , just wait until after we do actually  brexit and everything goes pear shaped -  you be hearing so many cries of " I told you so!"

Yes, what is not realised is that there is no 'final whistle', and no VE day on Brexit.  Even when the deal is done, implementation is a long way off.  Sadly, those that maintain no good can come off such a contentious and ill-executed plan are probably right imo. 

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

Oh yes I understand now, the democratic vote you are trying to overturn.

Everyone accepts the opinion given 28 months ago. Thanks!

 

Next!

[mommysboy]

20 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm sure that everyone agrees that those who disagree with the referendum result are clearly entitled to campaign to return to the eu - once the govt. has delivered on the original referendum result!

If that were the case there can be no argument.  But the point is they haven't!  And the envisaged deal falls well short of what is required.  More importantly, it does not appear to be what the majority of the nation wants any longer.  That issue could be settled quite easily with a vote on the deal, although that may not end the matter either, since the country is in fact split.

 

We are faced with a situation that can not be resolved, so common sense says we need to step back here.  You, on the other hand, seem to be arguing for Brexit at any cost!

 

 

 

 

[vogie]

9 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Everyone accepts the opinion given 28 months ago. Thanks!

 

Next!

Very clever, seen what you did there, the opinion referendum that parliament voted to give the British people and stated that it would "implement the decision that you decide"

 

New balls please!

[dick dasterdly]

40 minutes ago, tebee said:

Well brexit has gone from "sunlit upland+land of milk and honey" to "it probably won't be a Mad Max style armageddon" via  " there might be some economic benefits in 30 to 50 years" 

 

So how is this brexit fulfilling the referendum mandate when it is not what was promised ?

Whereas remain has gone from 'armageddon' to 'armageddon in the future'....

 

Agree entirely that the brit. govt. is doing it's very best to not fulfill the referendum mandate.

[Grouse]

33 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"The Government has had sufficient time to implement Brexit but has failed."

 

I agree with this part of your post.

 

Which only makes it clear that the brit. govt. was (and still is) desperately searching for a way to implement 'leave in name only' - without destroying their chances at the next GE.

What would you expect them to do?

 

They could just ignore the referendum completely which would be entirely understandable 

 

But no, May is trying to do the best she can for you without putting the country in a wheelchair and on oxygen

[Grouse]

15 minutes ago, vogie said:

Very clever, seen what you did there, the opinion referendum that parliament voted to give the British people and stated that it would "implement the decision that you decide"

 

New balls please!

It doesn't say that in the act.

 

I don't care what Cameron said, it's the act that counts.

[transam]

45 minutes ago, Grouse said:

You were not ignored

 

Your government has tried hard to deliver what you wanted while minimising the harm that will result

 

The referendum was advisory; parliament is sovereign no matter what Cameron may have you believe

Why did you write "your government"....Why not "our"....Hmmmmmm..????

[vogie]

Just now, Grouse said:

It doesn't say that in the act.

 

I don't care what Cameron said, it's the act that counts.

I think we can safely say without fear of contradiction that the decision of parliament will be acted on. And I have just checked with D Cameron and he said he doesn't care what you said either, so the feeling is mutual. ????????????

[dick dasterdly]

47 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm sure that everyone agrees that those who disagree with the referendum result are clearly entitled to campaign to return to the eu - once the govt. has delivered on the original referendum result!

 

21 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

If that were the case there can be no argument.  But the point is they haven't!  And the envisaged deal falls well short of what is required.  More importantly, it does not appear to be what the majority of the nation wants any longer.  That issue could be settled quite easily with a vote on the deal, although that may not end the matter either, since the country is in fact split.

 

We are faced with a situation that can not be resolved, so common sense says we need to step back here.  You, on the other hand, seem to be arguing for Brexit at any cost!

 

 

 

 

"it does not appear to be what the majority of the nation wants any longer".  Pure opinion - but I agree with the other point you've raised -

 

"But the point is they haven't!  And the envisaged deal falls well short of what is required."

Says it all .....☹️.

 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

59 minutes ago, Grouse said:

You were not ignored

 

Your government has tried hard to deliver what you wanted while minimising the harm that will result

 

The referendum was advisory; parliament is sovereign no matter what Cameron may have you believe

"Your government has tried hard to deliver what you wanted while minimising the harm that will result."

 

Agree entirely - as long as you are referring to "the harm that will result" to their own financial interests".....

 

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[tebee]

37 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

 

Agree entirely that the brit. govt. is doing it's very best to not fulfill the referendum mandate.

Possibly because it is completely unable to find a way of delivering that mandate without making itself unelectable in the future.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

6 hours ago, vogie said:

In two years tebee or however long you have been posting I cannot remember you saying one good thing about the UK, you seem to take great pleasure in decrying your country of birth. If I was from the european mainland and read your posts (and some of the other posters), I too would be wondering why Brits havn't one good word to say about our country. It is disgracefull how you have no respect for the UK. Your constant negativity is totally boring.

Having said all that I cannot remember one occasion where Mrs May needs help to stand up unlike her counterpart, the head of the EU, now that is embarrassing. 

This is a good (albeit easy) observation to make on TVF, Vogie. It is an issue that is present across the British population too, particularly with certain demographics, namely the young - generally uneducated and wholly ignorant of all that they decry. There are a fair few confused people, well represented on here, who are all too willing to cow-tow to the EU and all its obvious (and more covert) maladies, and who clearly have a burning sense of self loathing or perhaps even a masochistic streak ???

 

It is hardly surprising however, our own culture has been deliberately eroded to such an extent over the last few decades that many will claim there is no such thing as 'Britishness' or 'English values' etc. and that this is and has always been a fallacy., 

 

To those people I'd say learn the history of your own country and the pioneering effect Britain had around the western world, in particular, for centuries in areas such as spreading liberty, the rule of law, parliamentary politics and democracy, economics, international trade, military endeavour, massively in literature and of course in invention - in creation, within the sciences and mathematics. These contributions and the people who pioneered them have shaped much of our culture, equally you could argue that our wonderful language and the independent, canny and humorous spirit of the fine peoples from all classes and all corners of the UK have too. To say that no such culture exists or ever has is a real travesty, especially when the people who so savagely attack it are themselves the descendants of a heroic generation who laid down their lives and liberty to save this so called 'fictional culture' and 'ridiculed society' in which we now reside, freely, I might add.

 

Disgraceful behaviour if you ask me. Also, there is nothing racist, fascistic, xenophobic or nationalistic about stating these facts, it doesn't mean in any way that I or anyone else who espouses them have less respect or appreciation of foreign people or cultures, it's just an expression of the truth of history and our pride in it. After all, we have a right to be proud of our forebears, where pride is derivable of course. As well as understanding the multitude of flaws and evils of areas of our past too, which I think most informed men and women are these days, without question.

However, expressing any form of patriotism or affection for one's own national history is now totally taboo and uniformly sniggered at by a class of people who believe themselves 'better' for simply holding an opposed opinion. Halo polishing I believe it's called. ???? 

 

This has come about for many reasons, not least the neo-liberal 'intelligentsia' of the UK being increasingly unable to stomach the idea of Englishness or Britishness. These chattering classes have found it to be rather vulgar and embarrassing for over a century now. Why that is, is a much broader and very interesting topic.

 

'In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized. 
They take their cookery from Paris and their opinions from Moscow. In the 
general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident 
thought. England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals 
are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always 
felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman 
and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse 
racing to suet puddings.'

 

'It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably 
true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of 
standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a 
poor box.'

 

G.Orwell's words are still as true today (if not more so) than they were 70 years ago. He had these prats weighed up a long time ago.

 

Brexit may be a shambles and the UK may be a laughing stock for now, but it will pale in comparison with what is coming to the continent and will vindicate our vote to leave.

Once the crud really starts to hit the fan, all people from over the EU will realise, too late, what a huge disaster it has become. 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[dick dasterdly]

24 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"Your government has tried hard to deliver what you wanted while minimising the harm that will result."

 

Agree entirely - as long as you are referring to "the harm that will result" to their own financial interests".....

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, tebee said:

Possibly because it is completely unable to find a way of delivering that mandate without making itself unelectable in the future.

So you think that if the brit. govt. delivers a 'leave in name only deal' it will be elected at the next election?

 

You may be right, but I think they'll have to put a whole lot more 'spin' on the 'deal' 'agreed' (and we've all seen the way this is going....) to reach this result.