UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[denby45]

I have a good idea. Let's become an African type of country and just ignore democracy altogether. To hell with the people's vote. Just ignore it and remain.

 

Den

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, tebee said:

They are caught between a rock and a hard place - a brexit in name only will upset the more fervent Brexiters and a hard no deal brexit will do so much damage to the economy that they will be unelectable for a generation. 

 

So in the short term the hard brexit will do them less damage, but in the longer term it will wreak them forever. 

 

My guess is they will go for BINO or a never ending transition - but sanity does not seem to be in this governments lexicon 

 

 

I hate to mention it again but an asymptotic slope to a Norway+ Nash equilibrium is the likely result with skilled negotiators. 

 

With this lot, we'll crash out with a Timeshare in Florida. 

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, denby45 said:

I have a good idea. Let's become an African type of country and just ignore democracy altogether. To hell with the people's vote. Just ignore it and remain.

 

Den

Is it OK if we ignore that opinion also?

[melvinmelvin]

8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I hate to mention it again but an asymptotic slope to a Norway+ Nash equilibrium is the likely result with skilled negotiators. 

 

With this lot, we'll crash out with a Timeshare in Florida. 

 

with the right timeshare in Florida you get to play golf with Potus, not too bad

 

skip this asymptotic approach, UK is in need of stable environment before the year 2083 

[mommysboy]

9 minutes ago, denby45 said:

I have a good idea. Let's become an African type of country and just ignore democracy altogether. To hell with the people's vote. Just ignore it and remain.

 

Den

Yes, why not?...after all we've already got the right style of government!

 

Nobody is ignoring the vote.  And it's actually the Government preventing Brexit- who else? . I do find it one of those odd things when we hear 'let's get on with it' postings: try telling the Government and not the Remainers.  Very strange that.

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, dunroaming said:

When the referendum was called it was an opportunity for various ambitious people to use it to challenge the government of the day, well at least get rid of Cameron and Osborne.  So the two sides were formed and went about convincing the people that their way was the best. The remain side loaded their cannons with warnings of chaos and economic hardships and the Brexit side sat down and made a list of claims and promises that they thought would win the people over.

 

In reality both sides were plucking their selling pitches out of thin air and both made predictions that have proved to be wrong (so far).  It cost Cameron his political career and left the government with the impossible task of fulfilling promises made without any idea of the consequences.  The orchestrators of Brexit ran for the hills as soon as the vote went their way leaving Theresa May with the poisoned chalice. Amazing that the likes of Johnson, Gove, Fox and JRM backed May for the PM ship knowing she was a remainer rather than backing Andrea Leadsom (who also stood) who was a passionate Brexiteer.

 

So here we are two years on and only now is the reality sinking in to many of the voters.  The list of mistakes along the way is depressingly long and we are still no nearer getting a deal that will be beneficial to the country. It all leaves a bad taste in your mouth and Britain is worse off for it.

The reality is that an EU referendum was long awaited and that the outcome of it was little to do with Cameron, Osborne or anyone (or anything) else involved with the 2016 campaign.

[rixalex]

It's not being ignored. The Government has had sufficient time to implement Brexit but has failed. As has been said the mandate was also ill-defined, and has proven undeliverable. 
 
Circumstances change, and of course we change our minds accordingly.
 
The envisaged deal seems not to have materialised- nobody willingly chooses a bad deal.

The government has failed because the Houses of Parliament hasn't wanted it to succeed, and has done all it can to delay it and slow it down to the point at which people, people like you, hold their arms up and declare that it simply can't be done and has to be scrapped for the good of the nation.

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[melvinmelvin]

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The reality is that an EU referendum was long awaited and that the outcome of it was little to do with Cameron, Osborne or anyone (or anything) else involved with the 2016 campaign.

Ta, well said, agree with that.

You may have a Belhaven on me.

[rixalex]

You were promised 350 million a week for the NHS - I don't see  much mention of this these days?

The only people it seems who were naive enough to not understand that this was simply a statement making a point about how much money could be saved, and how that money could, if the government of the day so decided, be spent on the NHS, are people like you who voted to remain anyway.

If leave voters were conned into voting leave because of that bus that remainers feel the need to mention every other day, where are the all the up in arms leave voters protesting about how they were conned?

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[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

I didn't mean it that way. It was a prosaic / rhetorical flourish! ????

Well, better stick to your prescription limit. Doctor's orders and all that. ????

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

 

Personally, if I had the opportunity, I'd deny being anything to do with the current omnishambles of a government !   

...........and everyone would believe you.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

You of all people don't believe that! Most of the CONs want Brexit for their own nefarious reasons.

I wish they did!

[mommysboy]

22 minutes ago, rixalex said:

The government has failed because the Houses of Parliament hasn't wanted it to succeed, and has done all it can to delay it and slow it down to the point at which people, people like you, hold their arms up and declare that it simply can't be done and has to be scrapped for the good of the nation.

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Why do you think there is opposition?

 

My impression is Parliament is not so opposed to a reasonable deal.  The Government can't even secure a bad deal with the EU.

 

The Government opted to push for the hardest Brexit it could- it's cooked its own goose, hasn't it?  It's made enemies when it could have made friends.

 

And what about the deal that people actually want?

 

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by mommysboy

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

"It is hardly surprising however, our own culture has been deliberately eroded to such an extent over the last few decades that many will claim there is no such thing as 'Britishness' or 'English values' etc. and that this is and has always been a fallacy.,"

 

I think today's news from a Ryan Air flight demonstrates that English values have been released without any hindrance. More the behaviour one expects from the Deep South many decades ago and very far from EU social etiquette.

That has to be the most presumptive and accusatory post I've ever seen from you. I'm actually surprised. 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

The decision of parliament was, it turns out, to hold a simple referendum to test the view of the people. That was done. AND significant time and treasure has gone in to giving the majority as much of what they want without killing the pig. The question is, how far do the people want to push it? There was a leave means leave worker (in charge of funding ironically) on Question Time. Her view was crash out and F the Irish! That sort of extremism does not win supporters. I wonder what her salary is? Not much for sure ????

A little test eh? I don't think 17 million people looked at it that way.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Yes. They pool some sovereignty in exchange for benefits to them all. Rather sophisticated actually. ????

Right. Check with the Greeks. They are very philosophical about the whole thing!

[nauseus]

28 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

Ta, well said, agree with that.

You may have a Belhaven on me.

I"d rather have a Bounty.

[rixalex]

Why do you think there is opposition?
 
My impression is Parliament is not so opposed to a reasonable deal.  The Government can't even secure a bad deal with the EU.
 
The Government opted to push for the hardest Brexit it could- it's cooked its own goose, hasn't it?  It's made enemies when it could have made friends.
 
And what about the deal that people actually want?
 
 

Of course there is opposition. The vast majority of MPs voted to remain and since the outcome of the vote have focused most of their efforts not on finding solutions to problems but rather finding ways to scupper progress and overturn the decision, without being too obvious about it. Just look at the way the Irish border issue has been politicized for evidence of that.

The government, if it weren't tripping over itself to appease remain voters, should have told the EU we were "crashing out" (as the media likes to call it) on day one. They should have stated that that was our intention and that was what we were preparing for. Then it should have told the EU that that is exactly what would happen unless they could persuade the British government otherwise. Then we would have had a decent deal agreed months ago, instead of this total hash up. That's on the remainers. They have screwed things up and now they want to get their way, and have the decision overturned.

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[damascase]

17 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Of course there is opposition. The vast majority of MPs voted to remain and since the outcome of the vote have focused most of their efforts not on finding solutions to problems but rather finding ways to scupper progress and overturn the decision, without being too obvious about it. Just look at the way the Irish border issue has been politicized for evidence of that.

The government, if it weren't tripping over itself to appease remain voters, should have told the EU we were "crashing out" (as the media likes to call it) on day one. They should have stated that that was our intention and that was what we were preparing for. Then it should have told the EU that that is exactly what would happen unless they could persuade the British government otherwise. Then we would have had a decent deal agreed months ago, instead of this total hash up. That's on the remainers. They have screwed things up and now they want to get their way, and have the decision overturned.

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‘They (the remainers) have screwed things up’: I would have laughed out loud, if it wasn’t such a sad attempt on blaming this shambles on the people that did not want Brexit.

[rixalex]

‘They (the remainers) have screwed things up’: I would have laughed out loud, if it wasn’t such a sad attempt on blaming this shambles on the people that did not want Brexit.

Well of course I didn't for a minute expect a remainer to accept or acknowledge the remain side's part in putting us where we are now.

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[mommysboy]

24 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Of course there is opposition. The vast majority of MPs voted to remain and since the outcome of the vote have focused most of their efforts not on finding solutions to problems but rather finding ways to scupper progress and overturn the decision, without being too obvious about it. Just look at the way the Irish border issue has been politicized for evidence of that.

The government, if it weren't tripping over itself to appease remain voters, should have told the EU we were "crashing out" (as the media likes to call it) on day one. They should have stated that that was our intention and that was what we were preparing for. Then it should have told the EU that that is exactly what would happen unless they could persuade the British government otherwise. Then we would have had a decent deal agreed months ago, instead of this total hash up. That's on the remainers. They have screwed things up and now they want to get their way, and have the decision overturned.

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I rather think it's about the nature of the deal, rather than blocking Brexit.  

 

Still, you do not consider what the people want from Brexit.

 

At root, I surmise many Leavers hold firm to the belief that, having won the vote, they have the sole right to determine what shape Brexit takes regardless of what the general electorate thinks, and, more disturbingly, its cost in all aspects.

 

MP's must guard the public interest you know.  It is up to the Government to develop a plan that is both popular and workable.  If it comes up with neither then of course there will be opposition. The Gowvernment has provided a singular failure imo.

 

 

[damascase]

2 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Well of course I didn't for a minute expect a remainer to accept or acknowledge the remain side's part in putting us where we are now.

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What have the remainers done wrong? Weren’t they entitled to vote against Brexit? If the leavers hadn’t won the UK would not be where it is now?

[Grouse]

57 minutes ago, nauseus said:

That has to be the most presumptive and accusatory post I've ever seen from you. I'm actually surprised. 

These situations do seem to Bec on the rise since Brexit became an issue 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sainsburys-racist-video-security-guard-abuse-london-a8595506.html

 

[talahtnut]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

Substantially better off. I posted graphs above. And that's just economics. Culturally, I find Europe much more pleasing than the USA.

I'm sorry, I can agree with you..

An exclusive poll commissioned by The Independent reveals one in 14 Britons

has had to use a food bank, with similar numbers also forced to skip meals

and borrow money as austerity measures leave them “penniless with nowhere to turn”.

As the 6th richest country in the world we should be thinking of our fellow Brits

instead of self interest.

 

[baboon]

57 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Of course there is opposition. The vast majority of MPs voted to remain and since the outcome of the vote have focused most of their efforts not on finding solutions to problems but rather finding ways to scupper progress and overturn the decision, without being too obvious about it. Just look at the way the Irish border issue has been politicized for evidence of that.

The government, if it weren't tripping over itself to appease remain voters, should have told the EU we were "crashing out" (as the media likes to call it) on day one. They should have stated that that was our intention and that was what we were preparing for. Then it should have told the EU that that is exactly what would happen unless they could persuade the British government otherwise. Then we would have had a decent deal agreed months ago, instead of this total hash up. That's on the remainers. They have screwed things up and now they want to get their way, and have the decision overturned.

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But we weren't prepared for anything other than the expected 'Remain' conclusion and look at the mess now!

I remember listening in live to Iain Dale on LBC radio interviewing George Osborne on what measures were in place now that 'Leave' had won and the Pound nosediving. (For most of you who haven't heard of him, Iain Dale is pro Brexit and a Conservative.) This was shortly before Johnson and the others did a runner.

The reply? 'There is no plan'.

Dale was outraged and accused Osborne of a gross dereliction of duty - a pretty good call under the circumstances.

 

Then we came to the negotiation table with nothing, and not much has improved since. It is hardly fair to blame the EU, regardless of their faults.

Edited October 22, 2018 by baboon

[damascase]

5 minutes ago, baboon said:

But we weren't prepared for anything other than the expected 'Remain' conclusion and look at the mess now!

I remember listening in to Iain Dale on LBC radio interviewing George Osborne on what measures were in place now that 'Leave' had won and the Pound nosediving. (For most of you who haven't heard of him, Iain Dale is pro Brexit and a Conservative.)

The reply? 'There is no plan'.

Dale was outraged and accused Osborne of a gross dereliction of duty - a pretty good call under the circumstances.

 

Then we came to the negotiation table with nothing, and not much has improved since. It is hardly fair to blame the EU, regardless of their faults.

Indeed: even 9 months after the referendum, when negotiations started, there still was no plan..........

Edited October 22, 2018 by damascase

[mommysboy]

15 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Well of course I didn't for a minute expect a remainer to accept or acknowledge the remain side's part in putting us where we are now.

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How should Remain or the MP's have behaved?

 

Has there been an ounce of compromise anyway?

[rixalex]

 
I rather think it's about the nature of the deal, rather than blocking Brexit.  
 
Still, you do not consider what the people want from Brexit.
 
At root, I surmise many Leavers hold firm to the belief that, having won the vote, they have the sole right to determine what shape Brexit takes regardless of what the general electorate thinks, and, more disturbingly, its cost in all aspects.
 
MP's must guard the public interest you know.  It is up to the Government to develop a plan that is both popular and workable.  If it comes up with neither then of course there will be opposition. The Gowvernment has provided a singular failure imo.
 
 

Brexiters don't think they have the right to determine the shape of Brexit, they think they have the right to a Brexit that means what it says it does: Britain exiting the EU. Not a half exit. Leaving the EU. It's really not that complicated a concept. Not until, that is, you speak to a remainer intent on achieving some sort of leave in which we don't leave. That is if overturning the decision entirely doesn't work.

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[rixalex]

What have the remainers done wrong? Weren’t they entitled to vote against Brexit? If the leavers hadn’t won the UK would not be where it is now?

Remainers haven't accepted or respected the democratic process.

Instead of losing graciously, getting behind the country in spite of their reservations about the decision, they have got behind the EU.

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[rixalex]

But we weren't prepared for anything other than the expected 'Remain' conclusion and look at the mess now!
I remember listening in live to Iain Dale on LBC radio interviewing George Osborne on what measures were in place now that 'Leave' had won and the Pound nosediving. (For most of you who haven't heard of him, Iain Dale is pro Brexit and a Conservative.) This was shortly before Johnson and the others did a runner.
The reply? 'There is no plan'.
Dale was outraged and accused Osborne of a gross dereliction of duty - a pretty good call under the circumstances.
 
Then we came to the negotiation table with nothing, and not much has improved since. It is hardly fair to blame the EU, regardless of their faults.

Yes I agree. The government, full of remainers as it is, is largely responsible for the mess. Many remainers outside of government haven't helped either.

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