UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

There is an argument going round that Brexit will have to happen, to fail or succeed, and be seen beyond doubt to fail or succeed, before politics in the UK will ever get back to normal.

 

I disagree.

 

The problem is Brexit is such a nebulous thing and means different things to different people. 

We are only ever going to get to try one version.

If it fails, 99% of Brexiters are going to say it failed because we picked the wrong flavour.

It being a success is the only way to closure.

 

I consider that an exceedingly unlikely possibility.

 

I consider that under the current government and the article 50 process to be an absolute impossibility.

 

So we are doomed to decades of turmoil in politics.

 

No one will ever get around to solving the root causes  of the problems in British society that the result steamed from.   

The result was certainly a steamer.

 

But causes of current British problems have roots both domestic and foreign.

[mommysboy]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Oh? I think we need a link for that last claim.

I have provided many over the past few weeks.  You probably didn't read them. Or, as with your writing, your reading doesn't go much further than one line.????

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

I have provided many over the past few weeks.  You probably didn't read them. Or, as with your writing, your reading doesn't go much further than one line.????

Thanks for the link.

[melvinmelvin]

8 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Oh? I think we need a link for that last claim.

www.thaivisa.com

 

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, melvinmelvin said:

www.thaivisa.com

 

Thanks for all the help. Really appreciated.

[Grouse]

If I may reiterate 

 

Parliament has no legal obligation to act on an advisory referendum no matter what Cameron stated at the time. Read the act.

 

The problem is that many MPs know that Brexit is a moronic idea but they fear the wrath of their constituents.

 

So, call another referendum

 

If the result is to remain, great. Parliament will cancel Brexit and never ask the people for an opinion EVER again

 

If the result is leave. Then I will quit fighting for remain.

[mommysboy]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The result was certainly a steamer.

 

But causes of current British problems have roots both domestic and foreign.

At root, it's the failing global economic model that has now just about run its course, while leaving a not inconsiderable cost both economic and environmental. It's pounds in pockets at a very base level- nobody complained when they were holding folding.

 

The Brexit problem is simply not coming up with a deal that is acceptable to the majority of the electorate.  If the deal was good, even ok, there wouldn't be nearly so much opposition on all sides.

 

 

 

 

[mommysboy]

I notice too that lately Brexiteers have been attempting to sanitise Brexit by revising its history.  It's otherwise a remarkable act of self deception which takes blinkered viewpoint, and selective editing to breathtaking levels. The Germans have a good phrase for it: Persilschein.

 

Get a good deal, and get on with it!  Stop blaming everyone else.

[My Thai Life]

27 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

It might surprise you, but some people in fact like to see beyond their own nose.  

 

You seem to be able to do nothing but insult.

Mixed in with your assertions.

The strange life of an international troll.

Edited October 24, 2018 by My Thai Life

[nauseus]

27 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I notice too that lately Brexiteers have been attempting to sanitise Brexit by revising its history.  It's otherwise a remarkable act of self deception which takes blinkered viewpoint, and selective editing to breathtaking levels. The Germans have a good phrase for it: Persilschein.

 

Get a good deal, and get on with it!  Stop blaming everyone else.

I think you are deceiving yourself.  

[rixalex]

I don't think the Government has respected the vote.
 
 

Within government, some have, many haven't.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[My Thai Life]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

So 48 % of the voting population have been deserted by both main parties promising to deliver the impossible.

 

 

This isn't going to end well for democracy in this country whatever the eventual outcome.

In the 2017 referendum both main parties campaigned on honouring the result of the referendum. The referendum was a binary choice yes/no, just like the referendum going in. By your analysis, if Remain had won 52-48 we should have half left? Unlikely.

 

It's your opinion that it's impossible, certalny not fact, and millions don't agree with your opinion. True, what May's attempting to do is impossible: you can't be half in and half out. The really bizarre thing about Chequers is that it seems to be her own private idea, cooked up with Olly Robbins I guess; it wasn't even developed with her cabinet. This is undemocratic in my view, and has resulted in a "plan" that's not supported by anyone, wasted time, and led to even more confusion.

 

But the greatest threat to democracy imho is that many remainers simply refuse to accept the result. This kind of denial is also bad for their mental health, as we see from this forum.

 

On the 29th March 2019 the UK is leaving the EU. Will it be a "no deal", EFTA, some fudge? How long will the transition be? These questions are still unanswered, but we will be leaving on the agreed date. The anguish of living with the denial of that in one's head must be truly awful.

[transam]

32 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I notice too that lately Brexiteers have been attempting to sanitise Brexit by revising its history.  It's otherwise a remarkable act of self deception which takes blinkered viewpoint, and selective editing to breathtaking levels. The Germans have a good phrase for it: Persilschein.

 

Get a good deal, and get on with it!  Stop blaming everyone else.

Well you would know what Germans have, wouldn't you....????

[welovesundaysatspace]

27 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

You seem to be able to do nothing but insult.

Mixed in with your assertions.

The strange life of an international troll.

Unlike you, who calls people “international troll” when you lack arguments, I didn’t insult anyone. Unlike you, I didn’t make any assertions either. And unlike you, who claims he’s not a Brexiteer but keeps posting Brexit nonsense, I am not a troll. 

[Grouse]

54 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I notice too that lately Brexiteers have been attempting to sanitise Brexit by revising its history.  It's otherwise a remarkable act of self deception which takes blinkered viewpoint, and selective editing to breathtaking levels. The Germans have a good phrase for it: Persilschein.

 

Get a good deal, and get on with it!  Stop blaming everyone else.

That's the ticket!

[Grouse]

24 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

In the 2017 referendum both main parties campaigned on honouring the result of the referendum. The referendum was a binary choice yes/no, just like the referendum going in. By your analysis, if Remain had won 52-48 we should have half left? Unlikely.

 

It's your opinion that it's impossible, certalny not fact, and millions don't agree with your opinion. True, what May's attempting to do is impossible: you can't be half in and half out. The really bizarre thing about Chequers is that it seems to be her own private idea, cooked up with Olly Robbins I guess; it wasn't even developed with her cabinet. This is undemocratic in my view, and has resulted in a "plan" that's not supported by anyone, wasted time, and led to even more confusion.

 

But the greatest threat to democracy imho is that many remainers simply refuse to accept the result. This kind of denial is also bad for their mental health, as we see from this forum.

 

On the 29th March 2019 the UK is leaving the EU. Will it be a "no deal", EFTA, some fudge? How long will the transition be? These questions are still unanswered, but we will be leaving on the agreed date. The anguish of living with the denial of that in one's head must be truly awful.

Did I miss the 2017 referendum?

 

The 2016 one was to get the public's opinion. We got it. A small majority wish to leave the EU. Thanks, but it wasn't binding.

 

In fact such a move would be so damaging that it would be criminally insane to go that route.

 

Easiest way out is another referendum

[mommysboy]

51 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

In the 2017 referendum both main parties campaigned on honouring the result of the referendum. The referendum was a binary choice yes/no, just like the referendum going in. By your analysis, if Remain had won 52-48 we should have half left? Unlikely.

 

It's your opinion that it's impossible, certalny not fact, and millions don't agree with your opinion. True, what May's attempting to do is impossible: you can't be half in and half out. The really bizarre thing about Chequers is that it seems to be her own private idea, cooked up with Olly Robbins I guess; it wasn't even developed with her cabinet. This is undemocratic in my view, and has resulted in a "plan" that's not supported by anyone, wasted time, and led to even more confusion.

 

But the greatest threat to democracy imho is that many remainers simply refuse to accept the result. This kind of denial is also bad for their mental health, as we see from this forum.

 

On the 29th March 2019 the UK is leaving the EU. Will it be a "no deal", EFTA, some fudge? How long will the transition be? These questions are still unanswered, but we will be leaving on the agreed date. The anguish of living with the denial of that in one's head must be truly awful.

The Government simply isn't doing a good job.  Poor work-start to finish. Any deal could work, but it stands the best chance with a unified, strong government, and the backing of the electorate. None of these seem to apply.

 

Only a small minority want the sort of Brexit it plans- the majority want a comprehensive trade deal, which is quite easily obtainable, and was indeed envisaged by prominent Leavers.

[tebee]

The gloomy take: Brexit will happen, it will be a disaster, and nothing will ever convince those who voted for it that the mess is their fault not that of Remainers/the EU/Theresa May/the media/the courts/Ireland.

 

But In 1989-90 the Tory government thought voters would blame the Councils for high poll taxes, not the policy itself.

 

But people saw through these excuses and blamed the policy itself.

 

Perhaps this could happen again.

 

I Line in hope - just not too much hope....

[My Thai Life]

22 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Did I miss the 2017 referendum?

 

The 2016 one was to get the public's opinion. We got it. A small majority wish to leave the EU. Thanks, but it wasn't binding.

 

In fact such a move would be so damaging that it would be criminally insane to go that route.

 

Easiest way out is another referendum

LOL my typo, I'm sure you're smart enough to guess that, I guess?

 

Your opinion of what the 2016 referendum was about is highly idiosyncratic, and not shared by any of the players. I've answered the Constitution 101 questions numerous times. If you don't like my answers, and the answers from other posters, you could take it up with your MP, or sue DC. I read several news sources every day, and this forum is the only place where the Constitution 101 "argument" is featured. Repeating it here every day isn't going to help your cause at all.

 

You repeatedly make wild and unsubstantiated assertions about the economic impact. None of the 10 plus economic forecasts that I am aware of agree with you. They forecast an impact of +7% to -10% of GDP over 15 years. One of my former employers, a world leading international management consultancy referred to in the recent gov't forecast document that Tebee linked to, comes in around midway in that range. I have been over this numerous times already with Tebee.

 

Neither of the main parties supports another referendum, this is a fact.

 

Given that I'm genuinely impartial in this "debate" I guess I have the luxury of looking at things as they are, rather than as I want them to be.

[My Thai Life]

22 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

The Government simply isn't doing a good job.  Poor work-start to finish. Any deal could work, but it stands the best chance with a unified, strong government, and the backing of the electorate. None of these seem to apply.

 

Only a small minority want the sort of Brexit it plans- the majority want a comprehensive trade deal, which is quite easily obtainable, and was indeed envisaged by prominent Leavers.

I think everyone in the UK agrees with your first paragraph (with the exception of "any deal could work").

 

I think it is certain we will end up with a comprehensive trade deal. For me the questions are  "how long will it take?" and "via which route?".

 

Have a good day MB. You seem to be staying sane ????

 

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

If I may reiterate 

 

Parliament has no legal obligation to act on an advisory referendum no matter what Cameron stated at the time. Read the act.

 

The problem is that many MPs know that Brexit is a moronic idea but they fear the wrath of their constituents.

 

So, call another referendum

 

If the result is to remain, great. Parliament will cancel Brexit and never ask the people for an opinion EVER again

 

If the result is leave. Then I will quit fighting for remain.

But remain wouldn't be an option if People want a vote on the deal and thats what they keep asking for the only tick boxes on the ballot paper would be

Do you want to accept the deal that is on the table and leave

Do you want to reject the deal that is on the table and leave

No More No Less

[Jip99]

 Detail of the post Brexit coins have just been released:-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[vinny41]

31 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

The Government simply isn't doing a good job.  Poor work-start to finish. Any deal could work, but it stands the best chance with a unified, strong government, and the backing of the electorate. None of these seem to apply.

 

Only a small minority want the sort of Brexit it plans- the majority want a comprehensive trade deal, which is quite easily obtainable, and was indeed envisaged by prominent Leavers.

How do you know that the majority want a comprehensive trade deal have you asked them each person 

For the groups of people that voted to leave in areas that were traditional labour heartlands have you ask each person

Most people I know that Voted leave just want to leave end off  they are fed up with Project Fear, Project Fear 2.0

The people that are running Project Fear are willing to sacrifice 3.8 million EU citizens living in the UK , No doubt in their mind

they will call them collateral damage

[whatsupdoc]

21 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Given that I'm genuinely impartial in this "debate" I guess I have the luxury of looking at things as they are, rather than as I want them to be.

It is really getting a bit embarrassing. To claim that you are neutral, impartial or whatever is rather subjective and I do not think you convince anyone other than yourself, especially when just about all of your comments are pro-Brexit.

[sandyf]

6 hours ago, vinny41 said:

You may have posted that in your opinion "DC had no authority to make any definitive statement" at the end of the day that is your opinion  by the way it wasn't only DC here Gove take on the matter

Not my opinion, nothing is cast in stone.

no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change. 

https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/

 

Whether you, or the other brexiteers, like it or not the UK is a parliamentary democracy, not a peoples republic.

[BritManToo]

6 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Not my opinion, nothing is cast in stone.

no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change. 

 

Unless we stay in and become part of a European federal state, in which case parliament won't be making any future decisions.

I'm OK with either way, all the way in, join the Euro, get rid of parliament or all the way out.

At the moment it's the worst of both possible results with the most money being spent, and our currency at it's lowest ebb.

 

Having Euro MPs and Parliamentary MPs is just a foolish money wasting system.

Both lots of MPs are completely useless, let's just half the expense and keep one feeding trough.

Edited October 24, 2018 by BritManToo

[melvinmelvin]

38 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 Detail of the post Brexit coins have just been released:-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

h-penny. farthing

 

 

[vinny41]

12 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Not my opinion, nothing is cast in stone.

no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change. 

https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/

 

Whether you, or the other brexiteers, like it or not the UK is a parliamentary democracy, not a peoples republic.

And their nothing in the above that prevents David Cameron stating that voting leave means leaving the eu, leaving the single market and leaving the customs union

 

[tebee]

12 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

And their nothing in the above that prevents David Cameron stating that voting leave means leaving the eu, leaving the single market and leaving the customs union

 

He can say that, but it's only worth as much as every other politician's promise. 

 

He can not bind any successor, so as soon as he resigned that promise was null and void. 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Jip99 said:

 Detail of the post Brexit coins have just been released:-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I bet they'd be worth a few bob.............

 

 

•         ................sorry ????