UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[tebee]

3 hours ago, nontabury said:

What a load of BS. There are no large British trawlers. Yet in living memory Hull was the largest fishing port in the world, followed by Grimsby.

We had to sacrifice our deep water fishing fleet in order to join the EEC.

Here are two photo’s of Hull fish docks, one I think from the 30’s the other shows the one remaining British trawler, that is now a museum piece.

Regarding coastal British fishing grounds,unfortunately they are being decimated by our neighbour, especially the Spanish fishing fleet. Oh where or where is Drake.

We lost our large deep sea fleet when we lost their fishing grounds in the cod wars - nothing to do with the EEC.

 

There are a number of large short range boats still under British flags, but with foreign ownership(mostly Dutch)  five of these own 32% of the British quota

[vinny41]

Actually, Brexiteers knew what they were voting for - but Remainers had less of a clue

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/31/actually-brexiteers-knew-voting-remainers-had-much-less-clue/

 

[tebee]

6 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Actually, Brexiteers knew what they were voting for - but Remainers had less of a clue

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/31/actually-brexiteers-knew-voting-remainers-had-much-less-clue/

 

So what were Brexiters voting for ? Perhaps you could tell the government. 

[vinny41]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

So what were Brexiters voting for ? Perhaps you could tell the government. 

Simple leave the EU, Leave the single market , leave the Custom Union and leave the European Court's jurisdiction  

[whatsupdoc]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

Simple leave the EU, Leave the single market , leave the Custom Union and leave the European Court's jurisdiction  

If it is all so simple just do it. Please leave.

[Jip99]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

So what were Brexiters voting for ? Perhaps you could tell the government. 

 

You will find that the government already produced a document explaining that. Cameron was also clear in his Chatham House speech.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

[tebee]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

Simple leave the EU, Leave the single market , leave the Custom Union and leave the European Court's jurisdiction  

but that wasn't what was suggested before the referendum.

 

It would cause chaos and many  job losses - why are you such a sociopath ?

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

6 hours ago, nontabury said:

What a load of BS. There are no large British trawlers. Yet in living memory Hull was the largest fishing port in the world, followed by Grimsby.

We had to sacrifice our deep water fishing fleet in order to join the EEC.

Here are two photo’s of Hull fish docks, one I think from the 30’s the other shows the one remaining British trawler, that is now a museum piece.

Regarding coastal British fishing grounds,unfortunately they are being decimated by our neighbour, especially the Spanish fishing fleet. Oh where or where is Drake.

Poignant pictures, to be sure. I was making the same points as you re: Grimsby in a recent comment, as the thread shifted it's focus onto the fishing industry the UK has been robbed of. Towns in their death throws are horrible sights to behold.

...

Drake indeed. With a bit of luck maybe Brexit will reanimate him? ????

 

GRIMSBY-

 

c. 1960

 

2017

Edited November 2, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

but that wasn't what was suggested before the referendum.

 

It would cause chaos and many  job losses - why are you such a sociopath ?

Yes is was Leaving the EU is the exact opposite of Remain It was a binary  decision We all know end result if the UK left with no deal each of the other 27 countries would hold the EU line for about 1 week then they would start making their own deals with the UK 

Brexit means leaving the single market and the customs union. Here’s why

Barry Gardiner

The 52% who voted to leave the EU would consider it a con if Britain was out of Europe but still subservient to its laws and institutions 

• Barry Gardiner is shadow trade secretary

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/24/leaving-eu-single-market-customs-union-brexit-britain-europe

Edited November 2, 2018 by vinny41

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

12 hours ago, nauseus said:

1314. Any Scot I have ever met claims victory, which is fair enough, as the British were routed and scattered all over the place.

Indeed they do, but Bannockburn was just part of heats, Culloden was the final. ????

All worked out well in the end after Acts of Union though to be fair... 

 

'What began as a hostile merger, would end in a full partnership in the most powerful going concern in the world ... it was one of the most astonishing transformations in European history.'

[rixalex]

but that wasn't what was suggested before the referendum.
 
It would cause chaos and many  job losses - why are you such a sociopath ?

Yes it was. It was made clear by the prime minister of the day what a vote to leave would mean. It's only since the vote that all this soft vs hard Brexit nonsense has been spoken about, in an attempt by remainers to somehow architect a way to leave the EU without actually leaving.

On your second point, what you really mean to say is, "it would cause chaos to MY life".

Of course as an Englishman living and working in France, what other view would anyone expect you to have? It's in YOUR best interest that the UK stays in the EU, and so you are arguing what is best for you and your family. You remind me a bit of those politicians who argue in favour of law changes that just happen to result in a windfall for their family or business. Of course that the politician happens to benefit doesn't necessarily make the law change a bad one, but it's hard to not question there true motives.

Maybe, just maybe, were you not an Englishman living in France, but rather an Englishman living in a part of the UK in which many of the people in the area do not speak English as their first language, you might have a different take on it all.

Either way, don't pretend to know what the long term effects will be on English people actually living in England, if we leave or if we stay, or feel yourself in a position to declare their lives will be better or worse, because you simply don't know. If the UK stays in the EU and it collapses, do you not think there might be job losses and chaos? Of course there would be, and there's no guarantee that won't happen. Maybe not in the immediate future, but later, who knows? Not you. Not anyone. Stop pretending otherwise.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

15 minutes ago, rixalex said:

If the UK stays in the EU and it collapses, do you not think there might be job losses and chaos? Of course there would be, and there's no guarantee that won't happen. Maybe not in the immediate future, but later, who knows?

 

'EU and it collapses'

 

Would seem to me, and an increasing number of more informed and experienced minds, that this scenario is a lot more likely than the UK receding into 'the azure main' with a whimper.

 

 

German analysts seem to agree. This could be the beginning of the unraveling of the Eurozone. 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

17 hours ago, Grouse said:

Great stuff, keep it coming

 

Alfred would be a better exemplar than St George for sure! Or AEthelstan even better!

 

Did you ever visit Winchester Cathedral to see the remains of the Anglo Saxon kings? (as you know, but some may not, Winchester was the capital before London) Anyway Cromwell's "model army" smashed all the casks so that they're all mixed up! 

Many thanks Famous! ???? Glad someone else on TVF is as big a history buff as I am. 

 

Off topic again, but I'm happy to indulge your questions, (can't help myself as you've clearly guessed) I'll just keep my replies brief...

  

Perhaps either King Alfred, Edward the Confessor or indeed Æthelstan the first King of England, I would agree all make better exemplars. Nothing against St.George but his being our patron saint is something of a misnomer, it's all but taboo to celebrate his name-day now anyhow, so perhaps a move to a more historical accuracy and new patron saint's day would be a good thing all round?

 

I've never visited Winchester, but would love to one day soon. The seat of the Anglo-Saxon kings for many years, after it's reconstruction by Alfred in the 9th century. I bet it's a charming town, perhaps comparable to my own hometown, steeped in history and beautiful architecture, but with more rifles knocking about?   

Edited November 2, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Indeed they do, but Bannockburn was just part of heats, Culloden was the final. ????

All worked out well in the end after Acts of Union though to be fair... 

 

'What began as a hostile merger, would end in a full partnership in the most powerful going concern in the world ... it was one of the most astonishing transformations in European history.'

Of course, the suggestion of 'full partnership' has been exposed as a nothing other than a meaningless lie - otherwise the English Brexit would not be foisted upon our vastly pro EU country. 

[evadgib]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Of course, the suggestion of 'full partnership' has been exposed as a nothing other than a meaningless lie - otherwise the English Brexit would not be foisted upon our vastly pro EU country. 

Your actual "Vastly Pro EU Country" voted OUT.

[RuamRudy]

15 hours ago, Patriot1066 said:

Hmm we won in the long term though now Scotland is ours and relies on our aid to fund its public services?

 

 

[Patriot1066]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

Your a bit off post

 

With the Barnet formula the government use for assessing Scotland funding Scotland has spent its oil money several times. Incidentally Scotland gets about a thorn more per person than England.

 

Thats an SNP suported poster who are like the greens don’t like oil so perhaps a tad hypocritical.

 

we in England should have a vote Insuspect Scotland would be gone from the UK.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Your actual "Vastly Pro EU Country" voted OUT.

I am afraid you need to revise your understanding of the UK and its constituent members. Scotland is a country and has been for much longer than the Union; the signing of the Act of Union did not dissolve that fact. 

 

My country voted to remain in the EU by 62/38%. Subsequent polling has shown support for the EU in Scotland to have grown to 74%. Despite however you wish to try to share the blame, this is and forever will be known as England's Brexit. 

[Patriot1066]

7 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Ex-chair of Vote Leave: Labour could be ‘wiped out’ if it tries to block Brexit

 

https://talkradio.co.uk/news/ex-chair-vote-leave-labour-could-be-wiped-out-if-it-tries-block-brexit-18110128600#zrZcHlDLpW4tYlEH.99
 

I won’t vote labour ever again even on a bad Tory day.

[mommysboy]

7 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Ex-chair of Vote Leave: Labour could be ‘wiped out’ if it tries to block Brexit

 

https://talkradio.co.uk/news/ex-chair-vote-leave-labour-could-be-wiped-out-if-it-tries-block-brexit-18110128600#zrZcHlDLpW4tYlEH.99
 

Labour probably won't block a sensible deal.  But the article seems to suggest that if Labour support anything other than a so called hard Brexit it will be wiped out!

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, Patriot1066 said:

Your a bit off post

 

With the Barnet formula the government use for assessing Scotland funding Scotland has spent its oil money several times. Incidentally Scotland gets about a thorn more per person than England.

 

Thats an SNP suported poster who are like the greens don’t like oil so perhaps a tad hypocritical.

 

we in England should have a vote Insuspect Scotland would be gone from the UK.

Can you provide backing for that, because there is plenty evidence to suggest that you are talking out of your hat, I am afraid. 

 

But any opportunity to escape this corrupt and poisonous union would be welcomed by many in Scotland, so if the English decide to kick us out, I can assure you that there would be little in the way of ill feeling from us.

[mommysboy]

3 minutes ago, Patriot1066 said:

I won’t vote labour ever again even on a bad Tory day.

You ever did? Your politics appear Alt-right to put it mildly!????

[Patriot1066]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I am afraid you need to revise your understanding of the UK and its constituent members. Scotland is a country and has been for much longer than the Union; the signing of the Act of Union did not dissolve that fact. 

 

My country voted to remain in the EU by 62/38%. Subsequent polling has shown support for the EU in Scotland to have grown to 74%. Despite however you wish to try to share the blame, this is and forever will be known as England's Brexit. 

Yes your almost correct in your figures and in England there is a lot of debate on now if we should even invest in Scotland with your pending independence. If we got the independence vote I suspect Scotland would be good with most of your investment jobs and trade with the UK single market that should focus minds?

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

18 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Of course, the suggestion of 'full partnership' has been exposed as a nothing other than a meaningless lie - otherwise the English Brexit would not be foisted upon our vastly pro EU country. 

Well devolution to the point it's been at for years now, plus large subsidies from south of the border as well as, oh, the 300+ years of wealth, prosperity and global commercial, military and linguistic hegemony experienced by and due to our venerable union - much of its success derived from Scotland, has served many of the Scots, English and Welsh pretty damn well. I'd say some perspective is needed, Brexit will be an important epoch in our long history, I've no doubt AND even if it doesn't go to plan, it doesn't erase the preceding three centuries of success we've enjoyed within the union.

 

15 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Your actual "Vastly Pro EU Country" voted OUT.

That's the point here. A union that has been one of the most successful in history, existing for 300+ years, whereby the majority of which voted to Leave. The independence referendum was held by our Scottish brothers and sisters in 2014 after all. They decided to Remain, with the strong possibility of Brexit on the horizon, not even 2 years later. So here we are. Any further whinging about inequitable outcomes is just that.

Edited November 2, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[mommysboy]

8 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Can you provide backing for that, because there is plenty evidence to suggest that you are talking out of your hat, I am afraid. 

 

But any opportunity to escape this corrupt and poisonous union would be welcomed by many in Scotland, so if the English decide to kick us out, I can assure you that there would be little in the way of ill feeling from us.

Well I, for one, would be sorry to see Scotland to leave the Union whilst fully appreciating why it should want to.  There have been polls on the matter which suggest 65% of English people want Scots to remain in the UK- I don't think that has changed.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by mommysboy

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Well devolution to the point it's been at for years now, plus large subsidies from south of the border as well as, oh, the 300+ years of wealth, prosperity and global commercial, military and linguistic hegemony experienced by our venerable union - much of its success derived from Scotland, has served many of the Scots, English and Welsh pretty damn well. I'd say some perspective is needed, Brexit will be an important epoch in our long history, I've no doubt AND even if it doesn't go to plan, it doesn't erase the preceding three centuries of success we've enjoyed within the union.

 

That's the point here. A union that has been one of the most successful in history, existing for 300+ years, whereby the majority of which voted to Leave. The independence referendum was held by our Scottish brothers and sisters in 2014 after all. They decided to Remain, with the strong possibility of Brexit on the horizon, not even 2 years later. So here we are. Any further whinging about inequitable outcomes is just that.

With the exception of the City of London and the SE of England, Scotland contributes more to the exchequer than any other part of the UK. In fact, the sum is in the region of 60 billion per year, although Scottish goods exported from English ports are not attributed to Scotland so the sum is actually higher. In return Scotland receives a 'grant' in the region of 30 billion. So tell me, what percentage of that 30 billion is subsidy and where has the rest gone?

 

Sorry to break it to you, but the majority of Scots voted for independence; the vote was won by No due to the number of non-Scots eligible to vote, who voted to remain in the UK. So in reality, your Scottish 'brothers and sisters' chose to break away from you. 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

13 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I am afraid you need to revise your understanding of the UK and its constituent members. Scotland is a country and has been for much longer than the Union; the signing of the Act of Union did not dissolve that fact. 

 

My country voted to remain in the EU by 62/38%. Subsequent polling has shown support for the EU in Scotland to have grown to 74%. Despite however you wish to try to share the blame, this is and forever will be known as England's Brexit. 

 

And how about your Welsh celtic brethren? Do they shoulder none of the blame? They voted to leave by practically the same margin as England did.

 

I'm betting your a Highland Scot? God love em' ????

 

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

Well I, for one, would be sorry to see Scotland to leave the Union whilst fully appreciating why it should want to.  There have been polls on the matter which suggest 65% of English people want Scots to remain in the UK- I don't think that has changed.

 

 

I have tried to make the point before that there is nothing about independence that should worry anyone either in Scotland or the rest of the UK. It should not be seen as a dismissal of the past or taken as a negative inference of what our forefathers have jointly accomplished through the ages, nor should the English see it as rejection of them as a people.

 

It is clear that there is a distinct difference in how we wish to see our countries develop. Half the country feels that our interests are not being met by Westminster, and we object to our resources being spent as they are. We have significant social problems that we cannot tackle because a government that we played no part in electing dictates how much we can get back from our contributions. 

 

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

And how about your Welsh celtic brethren? Do they shoulder none of the blame? They voted to leave by practically the same margin as England did.

 

If they stayed at home, would the result have been any different? I cannot be bothered to check.

 

7 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

I'm betting your a Highland Scot? God love em' ????

 

Nothing like a bit of casual bigotry on a Friday morning. But it's the Scots who hate the English?

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Many thanks Famous! ???? Glad someone else on TVF is as big a history buff as I am. 

 

Off topic again, but I'm happy to indulge your questions, (can't help myself as you've clearly guessed) I'll just keep my replies brief...

  

Perhaps either King Alfred, Edward the Confessor or indeed Æthelstan the first King of England, I would agree all make better exemplars. Nothing against St.George but his being our patron saint is something of a misnomer, it's all but taboo to celebrate his name-day now anyhow, so perhaps a move to a more historical accuracy and new patron saint's day would be a good thing all round?

 

I've never visited Winchester, but would love to one day soon. The seat of the Anglo-Saxon kings for many years, after it's reconstruction by Alfred in the 9th century. I bet it's a charming town, perhaps comparable to my own hometown, steeped in history and beautiful architecture, but with more rifles knocking about?   

Off topic indeed....

 

Well worth a visit. Regularly voted top town in UK to live.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-38351138

 

I had a high tech startup there in the '80s because it was a great place to attract clever people.

 

Full of Wykehamists of course!

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Old_Wykehamists

Edited November 2, 2018 by Grouse